Season 1 Discussion (Full Book Spoilers) v2.1

[VooDooNut]

I agree that the CGI burnout effect was confusing, but referencing the screencaps below, it appears like there is a visual distinction between someone who is burnt out and beyond aid:

(eyes and lips blackened)

 

 

 ...and someone who is almost burnt out: (This is milliseconds before Amalisa breaks the circle)

(burns on her face, but her eyes and lips are intact)

 

Is this very clear visually? In my opinion, no, it is not. But I do think it was an intentional decision to show a difference in damage between Amalisa and Nynaeve to subtly justify Egwene healing, not resurrecting, Nynaeve.

 

I also expect this moment will be revisited in season 2.

[Ralph]

40 minutes ago, KakitaOCU said:

 

It may be specific to strength (Like Gateways)  Which narrows it down a lot.

Even if every channeler can do it, there's only so many, and it's doubtful you can do it at ease or on your own time.  It's going to be a matter of being right there as it happens and acting quickly.  Which means death is still a risk and a consequence.

Or Healing burnout is different, and just requires a flow of Saidar going into the person

[Ralph]

Just now, VooDooNut said:

I agree that the CGI burnout effect was confusing, but referencing the screencaps below, it appears like there is a visual distinction between someone who is burnt out and beyond aid:

(eyes and lips blackened)

 

 

 ...and someone who is almost burnt out: (This is milliseconds before Amalisa breaks the circle)

(burns on her face, but her eyes and lips are intact)

 

Is this very clear visually? In my opinion, no, it is not. But I do think it was an intentional decision to show a difference in damage between Amalisa and Nynaeve to subtly justify Egwene healing, not resurrecting, Nynaeve.

 

I also expect this moment will be revisited in season 2.

They explained this clearly in the BtS clips. It was subtle, but def intended

[VooDooNut]

Just now, Ralph said:

They explained this clearly in the BtS clips. It was subtle, but def intended

Oh, nice! I'll have to check it out.

[Skipp]

38 minutes ago, VooDooNut said:

Oh, nice! I'll have to check it out.

Yeah, they created a burnout scale, it was interesting to listen to.

[Raal Gurniss]

3 hours ago, ilovezam said:

This is fair, there were definitely moments with a sense of "why don't you just balefire?" 

 

I didn't read every post, but I get the sense that that was probably an extremely hyperbolic representation of their points. But even if they did, I just don't think the CPR comparison works at all, which is what immediately jumped out a very faulty argument.

 

It's not that there's no longer any stakes - I'd agree with you if that's what they're arguing, because as you say, you could still get completely murdered, but the stakes associated with getting severely injured is now severely reduced. Agreed on this?

 

Also, unless they're giving Egwene new Talents in this, then what she did was not some kind of special feat specific to her, but something that other Aes Sedai should be able to pull off. So the "Egwene can't be everywhere" thing doesn't seem to fly. I'd be much more comfortable if it was Nynaeve doing Healing like that because they could establish that she's an insanely overpowered healer and it's just her, and I think this is why there didn't seem to be nearly as much backlash with the Ep 4 feat.

 

 

 

Good luck, regardless of what you say it won’t change a thing….Some here  say the show isn’t perfect but they defend even the weakest scenes, weakest performances, weakest cgi, weakest clothing, weakest storyline, weakest script….Then they rate the show 100/100, 10/10, 5*.

 

 

[Gothic Flame]

8 hours ago, KakitaOCU said:

I'd say it's fair because I'm not arguing Egwene's specific act.

You're redefining what being dead means to dismiss resurrection confirming my statement on creating your own narrative.

[KakitaOCU]

5 hours ago, Gothic Flame said:

You're redefining what being dead means to dismiss resurrection confirming my statement on creating your own narrative.

There is no proof of any resurrection in the show, so I'm really not sure what point you're after here.

Nynaeve goes limp, no indication saying no breath or pulse, even if there wasn't we've established that lack of breath or pulse doesn't meant unable to recover.  So....  What's your point?  We've only seen healing performed on a dead person once, Kerene, and it didn't work.

[ashi]

12 hours ago, VooDooNut said:

I agree that the CGI burnout effect was confusing, but referencing the screencaps below, it appears like there is a visual distinction between someone who is burnt out and beyond aid:

(eyes and lips blackened)

 

 

 ...and someone who is almost burnt out: (This is milliseconds before Amalisa breaks the circle)

(burns on her face, but her eyes and lips are intact)

 

Is this very clear visually? In my opinion, no, it is not. But I do think it was an intentional decision to show a difference in damage between Amalisa and Nynaeve to subtly justify Egwene healing, not resurrecting, Nynaeve.

 

I also expect this moment will be revisited in season 2.

Eh, her lips and eyes aren't really intact when Egwene is cradling her non-breathing body, begging her to "come back".

 

 

[VooDooNut]

11 minutes ago, ashi said:

Eh, her lips and eyes aren't really intact when Egwene is cradling her non-breathing body, begging her to "come back".

 

 

We'll have to agree to disagree on this one. I noted in my previous post that they weren't the most clear CGI visuals IMO, and I stand by that, but I do see a difference in burn-out damage between Nynaeve and Amalisa. Amalisa no longer has eyes (the biggest distinction I see), her mouth is blackened, and her head looks like a full-blown jack-o'-(the shadows)lantern. Nynaeve has facial scarring, looks less damaged overall, and still has her eyes.

[fra85uk]

There is no distinction between Amalisa and Nyn in terms of death: Amalisa was dead way before going completely fried. Nyn was way beyond salvation even if she did not look as roasted as a turkey forgotten in the oven.

But if we want pick up our own narrative at least let's try to be inventive: i say that Nyn is a humanoid alien with extremely high regenerative powers, the only way to kill her is to destroy her tissues on the sub-atomistic level. Try to change my mind.

 

Edited January 23, 2022 by fra85uk

[VooDooNut]

5 minutes ago, fra85uk said:

Try to change my mind.

 

I don't think that's possible.

 

If aliens make the show more enjoyable for you, by all means, let there be aliens. ?

 

Hopefully the mothership makes an appearance in season 2.

[Spiritweaver1]

17 hours ago, KakitaOCU said:

Book 4, Chapter 26: The Dedicated.  Mat is dead.  No breath, no heartbeat.  Rand brings him back with CPR.  Not only that but it's clear it's just skill, not power and he learned it because Master Luhhan also did it in the past.  

I'm not creating my own narrative, I'm pointing out that you can be dead and revived without the power.  Further that it happens IN THE BOOKS.  So the fact that Egwene used the power to perform CPR is not significant.  (Again, don't love the scene, but is it a good scene is a separate question from does this ruin all stakes and risk in the future)

And before you try to claim Mat wasn't really dead.  Remember two things.  #1: We don't know that Nynaeve was "really" dead either.  And #2: We've seen healing weaves used on a dead person, they didn't work (Kerene).

Actually we know he was really "dead' because the Finn's told him he would die.  The next and most compelling bit of evidence is that his link to the Horn is severed although that isn't revealed until the very end of the books.    I appreciate all the passion around this particular topic.  However for me it boils down to the previously repeated mentioned overuse of near death resurrection (NDR) .    Loial and who knows who else will be next.  The next is that Egw untrained should have no ability to do that healing.  I will grant Nyn has healing as a talent but Egw can't even make a ball of fire to kill Valda.  She is not going to be repairing somebody who has been burned from the inside out.   Plot foolishness.  

 

The thing that gets me is that the whole thing is so unnecessary to a good storyline.  You don't need everybody to die and be brought back.  Lazy as somebody said many pages back.   Also they have already diverged from book magic canon without writing their own rules to guide the episode writers.  I don't have a problem with the rules being different.  I just want them to be consistent.

 

[fra85uk]

4 minutes ago, VooDooNut said:

I don't think that's possible.

 

If aliens make the show more enjoyable for you, by all means, let there be aliens. ?

 

Hopefully the mothership makes an appearance in season 2.

Well nothing in the show says that there are no Aliens, so it all makes perfect sense: Nynaeve, probably from a superior alien race that has been wise enough to eradicate men,  can regenerate those wounds who would Have killed every human. 

[Skipp]

2 hours ago, fra85uk said:

Well nothing in the show says that there are no Aliens, so it all makes perfect sense: Nynaeve, probably from a superior alien race that has been wise enough to eradicate men,  can regenerate those wounds who would Have killed every human. 

The Ogier are kinda aliens

[Raal Gurniss]

6 minutes ago, Skipp said:

The Ogier are kinda aliens

Thought they were aliens that arrived a long time ago, hazy recollection of reading something to that effect.

[ilovezam]

8 hours ago, ashi said:

Eh, her lips and eyes aren't really intact when Egwene is cradling her non-breathing body, begging her to "come back".

 

 

Looking at this it's hard to believe she's supposed to be alive. She looks positively toasted from the inside of her skull. 

 

Even if she was just very nearly dead, Healing that still seems like a huge asspull to me

[Jaysen Gore]

Just for the record, let me say that I know what the show was going for with the different make ups for degrees of burn out, and at no time did I think they intended to show Nynaeve as dead. But somewhere between the filming, the post-production, the FX, and the editing, the production team screwed the pooch, and the result was she looked dead. Admit it, accept it, and move on. 

 

And for those of you on the other side of this debate, yes, it makes the show look bad, but under no circumstances does this mean that Egwene (or others) can raise the dead with the power. They screwed the pooch, they have to know they screwed the pooch. With luck, they have learned their lesson not to screw this particular pooch again. Do not assume malice when incompetence will serve...

 

and for Dog's sake, please just let this one go. On both sides. Care all you like, and debate all you like, but getting buried in nits like this, when there are so many broader issues with the show to be highlighted for future feedback and constructive criticism helps absolutely no one.

[fra85uk]

6 hours ago, Skipp said:

The Ogier are kinda aliens

See, I Have a point. If there is already one alien race, why not a second one? It makes perfect sense, the fact that people don't see it does not mean it is bad writing 

[bringbackthomsmoustache]

9 hours ago, Spiritweaver1 said:

On 1/23/2022 at 3:46 AM, KakitaOCU said:

Book 4, Chapter 26: The Dedicated.  Mat is dead.  No breath, no heartbeat.  Rand brings him back with CPR.  Not only that but it's clear it's just skill, not power and he learned it because Master Luhhan also did it in the past.  

I'm not creating my own narrative, I'm pointing out that you can be dead and revived without the power.  Further that it happens IN THE BOOKS.  So the fact that Egwene used the power to perform CPR is not significant.  (Again, don't love the scene, but is it a good scene is a separate question from does this ruin all stakes and risk in the future)

And before you try to claim Mat wasn't really dead.  Remember two things.  #1: We don't know that Nynaeve was "really" dead either.  And #2: We've seen healing weaves used on a dead person, they didn't work (Kerene).

Actually we know he was really "dead' because the Finn's told him he would die.  The next and most compelling bit of evidence is that his link to the Horn is severed although that isn't revealed until the very end of the books.    I appreciate all the passion around this particular topic.  However for me it boils down to the previously repeated mentioned overuse of near death resurrection (NDR) .    Loial and who knows who else will be next.  The next is that Egw untrained should have no ability to do that healing.  I will grant Nyn has healing as a talent but Egw can't even make a ball of fire to kill Valda.  She is not going to be repairing somebody who has been burned from the inside out.   Plot foolishness.  

 

The thing that gets me is that the whole thing is so unnecessary to a good storyline.  You don't need everybody to die and be brought back.  Lazy as somebody said many pages back.   Also they have already diverged from book magic canon without writing their own rules to guide the episode writers.  I don't have a problem with the rules being different.  I just want them to be consistent.

Actually for book purposes / breaking the link to the horn that is not when he was dead - at the end it is indicated that that was in the raid in Caemlyn against Rhavin when both Mat and Avienda were definately dead (along with others) from the lightning strikes and that was then undone by Rands sizable balefire on Rhavin.  The hanging in Ruidean was survivable (with aid) asphyxiation without brain death.

Edited January 24, 2022 by bringbackthomsmoustache

[Raal Gurniss]

1 hour ago, fra85uk said:

See, I Have a point. If there is already one alien race, why not a second one? It makes perfect sense, the fact that people don't see it does not mean it is bad writing 

It is bad writing…Might as well throw in some Transformer type aliens or some robe wearing laser sword Jedi types, perhaps some Carebear furry types, why not a few tripods?

 

I know, perhaps the whole thing is a simulation and they are linked up as some sort of network? Perhaps the whole thing is a dream? Perhaps it turns out its a roleplay game session….

 

Oh oh  perhaps a reality show where they have to pretend they are actors playing out a shoddy script….Perhaps glittery vampires and some werewolves having a love triangle? Tar Valons wing for training talented children Hogwarts style…..Perhaps some zombies thrown in for good measure…….

 

They could do a clip show of “can you remember when”..They could find a talking flying car, have an episode filmed in black and white with a PI theme…

 

Well…If nothing is ruled out and there are no limits or constraints to maintain or setting of believability why not cram all of that in? 

 

 

[fra85uk]

11 minutes ago, Raal Gurniss said:

It is bad writing…Might as well throw in some Transformer type aliens or some robe wearing laser sword Jedi types, perhaps some Carebear furry types, why not a few tripods?

 

I know, perhaps the whole thing is a simulation and they are linked up as some sort of network? Perhaps the whole thing is a dream? Perhaps it turns out its a roleplay game session….

 

Oh oh  perhaps a reality show where they have to pretend they are actors playing out a shoddy script….Perhaps glittery vampires and some werewolves having a love triangle? Tar Valons wing for training talented children Hogwarts style…..Perhaps some zombies thrown in for good measure…….

 

They could do a clip show of “can you remember when”..They could find a talking flying car, have an episode filmed in black and white with a PI theme…

 

Well…If nothing is ruled out and there are no limits or constraints to maintain or setting of believability why not cram all of that in? 

 

 

No, it's not bad writing only because you think it is. It will be Surely be explained in S2 along with the backstory of the poor girl getting tsunami'ed by the Seanchan (in reality she is a surf junior champion who already swore to the Seanchan and they just made the wave for her training because they care About the wellbeing of their people).

And of course even if "show don't tell" they will tell About Moiraine's tell as well 

 

Ah I forgot to put /s on my post.

[Raal Gurniss]

1 hour ago, fra85uk said:

No, it's not bad writing only because you think it is. It will be Surely be explained in S2 along with the backstory of the poor girl getting tsunami'ed by the Seanchan (in reality she is a surf junior champion who already swore to the Seanchan and they just made the wave for her training because they care About the wellbeing of their people).

And of course even if "show don't tell" they will tell About Moiraine's tell as well 

 

Ah I forgot to put /s on my post.

Think you will find that in this show the females are instant super experts in whatever field they happen to participate in for the first time….

[EmreY]

3 hours ago, Raal Gurniss said:

Think you will find that in this show the females are instant super experts in whatever field they happen to participate in for the first time….

 

How many pages do Egwene and Nynaeve spend training in the White Tower in the books?

 

Also, healing the after-effects of the taint and countering balefire? 

 

Book Egwene and Nynaeve are dramatically creative and OP.  You're just annoyed that they're OP in a different way in the TV series.

Edited January 24, 2022 by EmreY

[Gothic Flame]

2 minutes ago, EmreY said:

 

How many pages do Egwene and Nynaeve spend training in the White Tower in the books?  I've forgotten.

At least they did spend time in the tower. And they were there at least as long as Mat before being sent on a mission...that got them captured and received a rude education in destructive weaves by the Seachan before escaping and getting escorted by Verin back to the tower.