Season 1 Discussion (Full Book Spoilers) v2.1

[Jaysen Gore]

allow me to add a brief comment here; can't remember who said it, but it certain applies to Logain, and soon will apply to others. The only difference between a terrorist and a freedom fighter is a certain point of view.

 

Or, a historical quote "Treason never prospers, for if it does, none dare call it treason" - John Harrington d.1612

 

or a more applicable one here

 

As the plow breaks the earth shall he break the lives of men,
and all that was shall be consumed in the fire of his eyes.

[Agitel]

12 minutes ago, Maximillion said:

 

They are not saints either.

 

But likable.

[Harad the White]

4 minutes ago, Jaysen Gore said:

applies to Logain, and soon will apply to others.

Agreed. I would think that any non=book reader would conclude that Logain is being unjustly accused of "madness" so that he can be persecuted and forced to suffer a fate worse than death. I wonder whether Amazon's playing down the manifestations of "madness" is deliberate and will be ongoing. The maddest characters I see so far are Liandrin and The Questioner.

[Guest Wolfbrother31]

Couple thoughts: 

 

#1. People have really been up in arms and debating what happened in the "Logain seeing Ny's healing weaves scene". 

 

Here's the thing/challenge in my mind: as viewers we need to see something to know they're channeling - so we're seeing bright white lights (don't love it, but ok) - but as viewers we can only speculate what the characters themselves are seeing...

 

Also...people are giving the writers/Rafe too much credit I think - I'm pretty sure they just wanted to get the audience to think that Nyn was the Dragon (or that she's magnitudes more powerful than the other Aes Sedai) and Moiraine's speech to Logain + his reaction is how they did it (I HIGHLY doubt they discussed "Can Logain even see a woman's weaves??")

 

#2. Logain was played brilliantly. He believed he was the Dragon. He's not a hero or a villain, just a believable foil character. And, I think, Liandrin may have believed he was the Dragon too (and purposefully let down her shield so she could have the opportunity to gentle him without a trial). Because 

Spoiler

Liandrin is a darkfriend

 

#3. I argued months prior to the show that the open they should have done was start with the battle of Aiel at Tar Valon and the Dragon being born on DM and Gitara's prophecy. We may still get some of that. Should have been the first scene! 

 

#4. The only way these "the prophecies aren't really believed" argument makes sense is if they didn't come from Aes Sedai with a Foretelling ability (who can't speak an untrue word & have a legit talent). Hopefully we're still going to get Elaida ... So hopefully that isn't the case. What obviously happened is that they changed it to appeal to the current cultural "women can do everything men can do and men suck" climate and are now getting tons of pushback because you can't appease that crowd. Especially if you still keep the Dragon as 

Spoiler

Rand and not Egwene

 

 

[Jaysen Gore]

3 minutes ago, Harad the White said:

Agreed. I would think that any non=book reader would conclude that Logain is being unjustly accused of "madness" so that he can be persecuted and forced to suffer a fate worse than death. I wonder whether Amazon's playing down the manifestations of "madness" is deliberate and will be ongoing. The maddest characters I see so far are Liandrin and The Questioner.

Qui Custodiet Ipsos Custodes? 

 

They're not mad - they are policing agencies (self-appointed maybe) overseeing an organization that can - and in fact did - shatter the entire world. That's going to call for special kinds of will, and not being willing to take them at their word.

[2RiversFan]

1 hour ago, Beidomon said:

 

If by Dragonmount scene you mean The Prologue, then I can get behind this. I hope it happens.

 

I'm not sure how they do the birth scene as a flashback because that would be Tam's flashback. So I guess it'll be a dream or something. Or maybe it'll be Rand having a flashback of Tam's flashback? A flashback within a flashback?!

I do mean the prologue, the creation of Dragonmount.

What I forgot to add to my theory above that I think we will also get Tam's fever dreams that were cut (deliberately) from Ep 1.  The two scenes would go immensely well back to back, or they could show Tam's fever dream at some other point in Ep. 8

https://www.wotseries.com/2021/11/24/reddit-ama-with-rafe-judkins/

Q: Is there a particular reason you chose to exclude what Tam says to Rand during his fever dream? Or why you didn’t show Rand traveling back to town from their farm after the attack?
A: Did we?

Edited November 30, 2021 by 2RiversFan

[Kudzu]

4 hours ago, Beidomon said:

IMHO some folks on these boards are being overly nitpicky - just my perception, we all have things we find more important than others - and other folks seem to be bending over backwards to justify sloppy writing.

 

The Logain “like a raging sun” comment was sloppy writing. I mean, it sounded cool, but it deviates from the lore. Maybe he saw something, sure. He saw a bunch of people getting healed, and maybe Nyn even visually lit up the cave (like they do in an operating room!) but we all know “the raging sun” and the emotional way Logain said it, as a channeler himself, was prompted by him seeing the magnitude of Nyn’s channeling. We know this because there were several examples of this reaction in the books, except not in lore-breaking ways.

 

I get it, people want this show to be as real as possible, so they want to find ways to make the lore consistent. But the writers messed this one up. Doesn’t really bother me - I actually find the defense of the screw up funnier than I find the mistake irritating. 

 

I disagree, for me it's fun to look at what they've done and see if it can be fit into existing law. It's not purely in an attempt to defend the show.

 

I've said elsewhere the Nynaeve scene grated up against my book lore nerve on first watch, so it's really interesting for me to analyze it and see if it actually does break the rules. Are there plausible explanations within book cannon for what happened, if not does it fit show cannon or have they just stuffed up? I'm more than happy to just say they stuffed up the cannon if that's what I think happened. For example Moiraine's rumours of 4 ta'veren, they would have to really do something clever to explain that one. I can't think of any possible way there could be rumours of specifically 4 ta'veren in the the Two Rivers. So for now, I'm chalking that up to poor writing.

 

As for Nynaeve, I think there are definitely plausible explanations for what happened. They've already been pointed out by others out but I'm going to attempt to consolidate the points. For me there a two questions with this scene. Was Logain's reaction realistic and was what Nynaeve did actually possible.

 

I'll start with Nynaeve because I think it's simpler.

 

We've seen many occurrences in the books of the young channelers doing seemingly impossible things on instinct. Especially early on when they didn't know what they were doing. So I'm actually fine with just hand waving this one. However I did see someone make a comment that there is an example in the books of Nynaeve accidentally healing cuts and bruises of surrounding people when healing someone. I don't remember this, but would love it if someone could point out the passage if they know where it is.

 

As for Logain's reaction, before I start I'll list some assumptions based off the books.

 

Nynaeve isn't ta'veren

Logain can't see Nynaeve holding the power

Logain can't see Nynaeve's weaves

 

So then, given the above, is his reaction plausible?

 

1. Moiraine has just previously used the phrase "like a raging sun" to Logain, so its fresh in his head.

2. Nynaeve has no idea what she's doing. She's just poring all her strength in and creating healing weaves by instinct, it's very possible there could be stray weaves doing other things. This is evidenced by:

3. When Nynaeve starts channeling there are physical side effects to what she's doing. Her hair is flying around and there seems to be debris in the air? 

4. Given the above, I also think it's entirely plausible that there was a physical blinding ball of light created as a side effect. You can see light reflecting off the wall of the cave, would a Saidar glow create reflections? It's probably moot, because I don't think we have an answer to that question.

5. So, Logain's just seen the miraculous feat of healing a group of people at the same time and it's entirely plausible he was blinded by a ball of physical light, evocative of a raging sun. Hence the comment and the shielding of the face.

 

So there you go, for me, what she did was plausible and so was Logain's reaction. It's entirely possible the writers didn't think any of that through and just created a scene they thought was cool. If they did, I think they got away with it on this occasion.

[Harad the White]

3 minutes ago, Jaysen Gore said:

They're not mad - they are policing agencies (self-appointed maybe) overseeing an organization that can - and in fact did - shatter the entire world.

Sorta like the Schutzstaffel and Gestapo. No one ever accused Himmler of being "mad."

[Elder_Haman]

5 minutes ago, Kudzu said:

For example Moiraine's rumours of 4 ta'veren, they would have to really do something clever to explain that one.

What if Min had been through there at some point? 

[Yojimbo]

6 minutes ago, Wolfbrother31 said:

 

#3. I argued months prior to the show that the open they should have done was start with the battle of Aiel at Tar Valon and the Dragon being born on DM and Gitara's prophecy. We may still get some of that. Should have been the first scene! 

 

 

Except they can't do that and be internally consistent with what the show it telling us.  Unless you want to have Moraine - only one of the most intelligent and competent people in the entire saga - come off as a moron because she considered it even remotely possible the Logain could be TDR.   Of course they are also telling us that Nynaeve could be TDR which makes no sense either, since she is at least supposed to be older than the others by a handful of years.   I may be wrong, but there may have even been a line of dialogue confirming that Moroso's Foretelling happened 20 year prior.  So anyone not that age should not even be in the conversation. 

[Guest Wolfbrother31]

1 minute ago, Elder_Haman said:

What if Min had been through there at some point? 

 That would be the cleverest fix & plausible since we're probably getting Min in TV now. 

[MasterAblar]

4 minutes ago, Elder_Haman said:

What if Min had been through there at some point? 

 

Min is pretty much the only thing that makes sense in my opinion. Or a dreamer, but there presumably aren't any among the Aes Sedai at that point.

[Guest Wolfbrother31]

2 minutes ago, Yojimbo said:

Except they can't do that and be internally consistent with what the show it telling us.  Unless you want to have Moraine - only one of the most intelligent and competent people in the entire saga - come off as a moron because she considered it even remotely possible the Logain could be TDR

 

Well ... I also argued that them playing up the "Who is the Dragon" question is the wrong move. 

And most of their ... issues ... are because they're playing up that question. 

 

But after episode 4 - I think they're actually doing it in a pretty clever and entertaining way (like Thom suggesting Matt's dagger sickness is due to channeling) - and am looking forward to how they're going to do the final reveal this season! 

[Harad the White]

2 minutes ago, Yojimbo said:

So anyone not that age should not even be in the conversation. 

All mythology is adept at making exceptions. E.g.: "Nyn was 25 years old but at age 5, she accidentally fell into a frozen lake. She went into a coma, and they thought she would die. When she awoke she acted like a baby, and had visions." Voila: Nyn qualifies.

[Kudzu]

3 minutes ago, Elder_Haman said:

What if Min had been through there at some point? 

 

Could work. I don't actually expect to get an explanation and to just be annoyed about for the rest of my life. I'll be pleasantly surprised if it is resolved.

[Yojimbo]

2 minutes ago, Wolfbrother31 said:

 

Well ... I also argued that them playing up the "Who is the Dragon" question is the wrong move. 

And most of their ... issues ... are because they're playing up that question. 

 

But after episode 4 - I think they're actually doing it in a pretty clever and entertaining way (like Thom suggesting Matt's dagger sickness is due to channeling) - and am looking forward to how they're going to do the final reveal this season! 

The more things they change now the more they will have to change later.   The Butterfly Effect.  

[Tim]

16 minutes ago, Kudzu said:

 

I disagree, for me it's fun to look at what they've done and see if it can be fit into existing law. It's not purely in an attempt to defend the show.

Yes, I feel the same way - it’s not that I want to claim that the show has not made mistakes, but rather that is is more enjoyable to speculate on how/why something might not be a mistake. 
 

Dismissing something as an error or immediately concluding that the writers just didn’t have regard to something may well be correct, but it’s also by definition the end of the thought process - though to be clear I am not suggesting people ought not draw those conclusions! Just explaining why I tend not to unless there’s no other reasonable option.

Edited November 30, 2021 by Tim

[Guest Wolfbrother31]

6 minutes ago, Yojimbo said:

I may be wrong, but there may have even been a line of dialogue confirming that Moroso's Foretelling happened 20 year prior.  So anyone not that age should not even be in the conversation. 

 

In WoT Tv doesn't Moiraine suggest to Nynaeve in the pool that they don't have an accurate record of how old she is (and that she was brought from another village) ... I.E. 

I'm pretty confident that on the TV show they want the entire EF5 to be considered as possible candidates by the audience -- hence the Moiraine "like the blazing sun" in reference to the DR, followed by the Logain "like the blazing sun" in reference to Nyn channeling.

[Yojimbo]

2 minutes ago, Wolfbrother31 said:

 

In WoT Tv doesn't Moiraine suggest to Nynaeve in the pool that they don't have an accurate record of how old she is (and that she was brought from another village) ... I.E. 

I'm pretty confident that on the TV show they want the entire EF5 to be considered as possible candidates by the audience -- hence the Moiraine "like the blazing sun" in reference to the DR, followed by the Logain "like the blazing sun" in reference to Nyn channeling.

Yeah, but how does she become Wisdom at the same age that Egs was just getting her hair braided?     

[Guest Wolfbrother31]

2 minutes ago, Tim said:

Dismissing something as an error or immediately concluding that the writers just didn’t have regard to something may well be correct, but it’s also by definition the end of the thought process - though to be clear I am not suggesting people ought not draw those conclusions! Just explaining why I tend not to unless there’s no other reasonable option.

 True. And with as much $$ as they put into it. I would hope they thoroughly thought through every change. But also - sadly - I realized just the other month that most of the people working on the show have likely never read the books once - so it's bound to have a lot of different things about it. 

 

So far though - I think there's a lot that is pretty spot on WoT'ish. And my praise meter is going to go way way up if in S2 we get a bunch of tall gingers kicking ass & some relatable Forsaken! [Fingers crossed for Nathalie Emmanuelle as Semrihage & Alexandra D'addario as Lanfear]!! 

[Elder_Haman]

9 minutes ago, Kudzu said:

Could work. I don't actually expect to get an explanation and to just be annoyed about for the rest of my life. I'll be pleasantly surprised if it is resolved.

I’m beginning to think Min will be the impetus for heading to Fal Dara, not the Eye. 

[Guest Wolfbrother31]

7 minutes ago, Yojimbo said:

Yeah, but how does she become Wisdom at the same age that Egs was just getting her hair braided

Tv WoT hasn't really told us anything about the ages at which such things happen. 

I was merely pointing out that they intially cast doubt on Nyn's age ...

 

And I'm not arguing it makes sense. I'm simply arguing that WoTTv wants the audience to think it could be any of the EF5. Which is why they've been so muddled with numbers ... 5 of you. 4 of you. 4 Ta'veren. "is he as strong as Eg?" DR could be boy or girl, Ect...

Edited November 30, 2021 by Wolfbrother31

[Chadouken]

18 minutes ago, Yojimbo said:

So anyone not that age should not even be in the conversation. 

 

This is exactly what I was thinking.  It seemed like Moiraine ruled Nynaeve out during their conversation at the pool when she realized Nyn was 25 or 26 years old. So that would leave Perrin, Mat, Egwene, and Rand.

 

I don't know, but I have a sneaking suspicion that the Dragon Reborn is going to be Rand.

[Yojimbo]

2 minutes ago, Wolfbrother31 said:

Tv WoT hasn't really told us anything about the ages at which such things happen. 

I was merely pointing out that they intially cast doubt on Nyn's age ...

 

And I'm not arguing it makes sense. I'm simply arguing that WoTTv wants the audience to think it could be any of the EF5. Which is why they've been so muddled with numbers ... 5 of you. 4 of you. Ect...

I get it.  But as a guy who has written 2 books it just comes off as sloppy.

[Guest Wolfbrother31]

1 minute ago, Yojimbo said:

I get it.  But as a guy who has written 2 books it just comes off as sloppy.

 

Oh I agree. I think they're botching quite a lot because they really want the audience to think any of the EF5 could be the DR. And they're going to pump fake really hard at Eg for modern sensiblities. 

But. 

For new audiences. It could be really cool. Especially if such people have patience or don't have the internet ? ...