Season 1 Discussion (Full Book Spoilers) v2.1

[TheMountain]

1 hour ago, Hobo said:

If they wanted to change it so heavily why not just write a new story?

 

 

The cynic in me says that this way they get a guaranteed built-in audience, and a reassurance that the "general concept" of the story is something that can make money.

[JeffTheWoodlandElf]

On 12/12/2021 at 7:24 AM, WheelofJuke said:

Secondly, I don't care what instrument they wished to equip Thom with, but with the budget they have AT LEAST USE A REAL INSTRUMENT.

To be fair, a real guitar can cost upwards of 250 dollars. That's a whole .0025% of the money they had allocated for that episode. Rafe was faced with a tough choice. Get Thom an instrument worthy of his character or give the darkfriend girl a nose ring, without which she would have had no memorable characteristics whatsoever. 

Edited December 13, 2021 by JeffTheWoodlandElf

[TheDreadReader]

3 minutes ago, JeffTheWoodlandElf said:

To be fair, a real guitar can cost upwards of 250 dollars. That's a whole .0025% of the money they had allocated for that episode. Rafe was faced with a tough choice. Get Thom an instrument worthy of his character or give the darkfriend girl a nose ring, without which she would have had no memorable characteristics whatsoever. 

 

And, no one wants  a repeat of the Hateful Eight destruction of a $40,000 Martin guitar episode.

 

 

[DaddyFinn]

 

Found this on discord. Never heard of the channel but the video seems quite interesting, I just started it. I won't write any quotes and points of interest because it's so slow on mobile.

 

Edited December 13, 2021 by DaddyFinn

[JeffTheWoodlandElf]

So, I'm a little behind. I just finished episode 4. 

 

Ranking: 

4 then 2 then 3 then 1. 

 

General thoughts are that the series is pretty meh. As an adaptation of WoT, it's a travesty, but as a completely unrelated TV show which just happens to bear the same name, it's fine. 

 

The worst parts of my viewing experience are always when I realize they've pointlessly changed something from the books for no other reason than to prove they could. 

 

The best parts are actually when they totally abandon the books. Favorite scene from Episode 1 was the lantern lighting (but that may just be the weeb in me talking) and Episode 4 (the most different yet) was on pace to be an 8/10 until a German U-boat spontaneously appeared in the last 10 minutes and sank it with a torpedo the hull. (5/10). 

 

Viewed on its own merits, the show delivers a cringeworthy bit of dialogue roughly every 10 minutes, but that could be ignored if it didn't suffer from such a bad case of "mediocre writers posing as good writers" syndrome. 

 

You can see the insecurity of the writers in how they seem incapable of just writing a scene. Everything is overwritten. Consider that the first season of Game of Thrones is mostly just people talking. Normal, well written scenes which are engaging because the characters are engaging. 

 

Egwene getting pushed off a cliff? Not subtle. Matt's parents being useless? Not subtle. Perrin killing his wife? Not subtle. There's a scene in Episode 4 where Rand is confronted by a farmer with a bow and says something about how the farmer doesn't mean to kill him because he's holding the bowstring in his fist instead of his fingers. This scene checks all the boxes of what makes "interesting" writing. There's conflict and a "clever" resolution which tells us something about Rand. However, at the same time it just feels so contrived and artificial. And this type of writing is all over the place. It's the kind of stuff that amateur writers crank out because they've heard all about how "details bring scene to life!" but they don't understand that the point of specific details is to make a scene feel real. In contrast, so many WoT scenes just seem so meticulously constructed that my attention is actually drawn to their artificiality. 

Edited December 13, 2021 by JeffTheWoodlandElf

[WheelofJuke]

18 minutes ago, JeffTheWoodlandElf said:

To be fair, a real guitar can cost upwards of 250 dollars. That's a whole .0025% of the money they had allocated for that episode. Rafe was faced with a tough choice. Get Thom an instrument worthy of his character or give the darkfriend girl a nose ring, without which she would have had no memorable characteristics whatsoever. 

I have guitars that are worth thousands. 

 

I also have a really decent looking bass that cost me $125 shipped; tell the producers and prop people to get a hold of me if they need some gentle direction. ?

[JeffTheWoodlandElf]

4 minutes ago, WheelofJuke said:

I have guitars that are worth thousands. 

 

THOUSANDS? *crunches numbers* that would mean allocating .01% of the show's budget on a guitar! They could have given darkfriend girl a dozen nose rings for that price! 

[WheelofJuke]

2 minutes ago, JeffTheWoodlandElf said:

THOUSANDS? *crunches numbers* that would mean allocating .01% of the show's budget on a guitar! They could have given darkfriend girl a dozen nose rings for that price! 

WELL...one of those could have made Thom look like a proper badass, so that's right out!

 

Clearly, they are scaping and counting every last penny so they can bring us The Ways exactly as RJ described them.

 

Edited December 13, 2021 by WheelofJuke

[WheelofJuke]

Or -now stick with me because this is a REAL stretch- 

 

they could've gotten Thom a flute and harp just like in the books!

 

Although, that many fake tuning pegs on a harp would look even sillier. ?

[JeffTheWoodlandElf]

4 minutes ago, WheelofJuke said:

they could've gotten Thom a flute and harp just like in the books!

 

You know, I actually was so sure when I saw Episode 3 for the first time that this depiction of Thom was spot to to the books. It was only when I went back and realized that I was actually thinking of a Kurt Cobain biography I read once that I remembered Thom was supposed to be a court bard and not Bradley Cooper from A Star is Born. 

[TheDreadReader]

Just now, WheelofJuke said:

Or -now stick with me because this is a REAL stretch- 

 

they could've gotten Thom a flute and harp just like in the books!

 

 

Rafe talked about why he decided to make the change on twittter almost a year ago.  (I think the questioner mistakenly said lyre instead of harp).

 

 

 

 

[JeffTheWoodlandElf]

Lol "masculine energy." This show's female characters have more masculine energy than the male characters. 

[JeffTheWoodlandElf]

Thom having a guitar instead of a flute is, in my opinion, a much smaller deal than the fact that he seems the play the thing about as well as I did when I was 12 and just getting started with lessons. 

 

At some point, he's gonna have to really shred on that thing for me to believe that he ever stepped anywhere near a noble court. Unless they've totally excised that part of his character, which is entirely possible. 

 

Also, the line, "We call ourselves gleemen because it sounds less dangerous. Nothing more dangerous than a man who knows the past" is up there for the dumbest line in the series so far. 

[DaddyFinn]

2 hours ago, DaddyFinn said:

 

Found this on discord. Never heard of the channel but the video seems quite interesting, I just started it. I won't write any quotes and points of interest because it's so slow on mobile.

 

The video was great IMO. It handled many many topics that have been discussed here. 

 

[KakitaOCU]

44 minutes ago, JeffTheWoodlandElf said:

Thom having a guitar instead of a flute is, in my opinion, a much smaller deal than the fact that he seems the play the thing about as well as I did when I was 12 and just getting started with lessons. 

 

At some point, he's gonna have to really shred on that thing for me to believe that he ever stepped anywhere near a noble court. Unless they've totally excised that part of his character, which is entirely possible. 

 

Also, the line, "We call ourselves gleemen because it sounds less dangerous. Nothing more dangerous than a man who knows the past" is up there for the dumbest line in the series so far. 

Couple of points.

#1: He plays it as backing for his tale/song.  Like real bards.  They don't riff and shred when they're singing in that style, never did.  This might be your misunderstanding based on modern music.

#2: That line is somewhat frieghtening and accurate.  Having a great breadth of knowledge of what people have done or might do actually allows for extra knowledge the common folk don't have as well as more knowledge on how to apply it. 

 

Spoiler

You don't feel Mat is MORE dangerous after his trip to Rhuidiean?

 

[JeffTheWoodlandElf]

8 minutes ago, KakitaOCU said:

That line is somewhat frieghtening and accurate.  Having a great breadth of knowledge of what people have done or might do actually allows for extra knowledge the common folk don't have as well as more knowledge on how to apply it. 

It's just extremely stupid that the Gleemen are portrayed as some kind of danger to the status quo. This isn't Soviet Russia. This is Randland. There isn't some ancient conspiracy about the past that's being covered up. The idea that they're called "glee-men" not because they bring glee and do party tricks and play songs at taverns but because they're hoarding forbidden knowledge and want to throw those in power off their scent is enormously stupid. 

 

It was just such an obvious attempt to be edgy and cool that it just made me roll my eyes. Same with his story about Owen slitting his own throat at the dinner table. It's just such try-hard writing. 

[KakitaOCU]

3 minutes ago, JeffTheWoodlandElf said:

It's just extremely stupid that the Gleemen are portrayed as some kind of danger to the status quo. This isn't Soviet Russia. This is Randland. There isn't some ancient conspiracy about the past that's being covered up. The idea that they're called "glee-men" not because they bring glee and do party tricks and play songs at taverns but because they're hoarding forbidden knowledge and want to throw those in power off their scent is enormously stupid. 

It's not Soviet Russia, true.  But he is from Cairhienin where secrets can determine the course of lives and nations.  Where understanding people in depth gives you weapons of unparalleled strength.

Thom 100% calls himself a simple gleeman precisely to keep people underestimating him.  It's a point multiple times over and then hammered in bluntly in book 4.

I'm sure there are Gleemen who just do parties and tricks and play songs...  But Gleemen in Wheel of Time are based on Celtic Bards.  Bards were not to be trifled with and not to be assumed to be silly music makers.

[JeffTheWoodlandElf]

4 minutes ago, KakitaOCU said:

Thom 100% calls himself a simple gleeman precisely to keep people underestimating him.  It's a point multiple times over and then hammered in bluntly in book 4.

Right. But in the show he's implying that ALL gleemen do this. He's explaining the origin of the name itself. "WE call ourselves gleemen." He's not talking about just himself. Are you gonna tell me that ALL gleemen used to be high ranking figures in noble courts but had falling outs with their masters and are now on the run and trying to divert attention from themselves by hiding beneath a gleeman's cloak? 

 

Thom calls himself a gleeman precisely because no one expects anything of gleemen BECAUSE gleemen are essentially party clowns and storytellers. Gleemen are not a cabal of keepers of forbidden knowledge roaming the land in disguise, keeping their heads down lest those in power recognize them for what they truly are. Most gleemen are simple gleemen. Thom is an exception. 

 

This line is like a hammer to the face. There's no consideration given to who is saying it, just that it sounds vaguely cool. Thom could have literally said nothing at all and the implication of his silence would have been better for building his mystique than this half-baked bit of writing. 

 

So dumb. Seriously so dumb. The more I think about it the dumber it gets. 

[KakitaOCU]

1 minute ago, JeffTheWoodlandElf said:

Right. But in the show he's implying that ALL gleemen do this. He's explaining the origin of the name itself. "WE call ourselves gleemen." He's not talking about just himself. Are you gonna tell me that ALL gleemen used to be high ranking figures in noble courts but had falling outs with their masters and are now on the run and trying to divert attention from themselves by hiding beneath a gleeman's cloak? 

 

Thom calls himself a gleeman precisely because no one expects anything of gleemen BECAUSE gleemen are essentially party clowns and storytellers. Gleemen are not a cabal of keepers of forbidden knowledge roaming the land in disguise, keeping their heads down lest those in power recognize them for what they truly are. Most gleemen are simple gleemen. Thom is an exception. 

 

This line is like a hammer to the face. There's no consideration given to who is saying it, just that it sounds vaguely cool. Thom could have literally said nothing at all and the implication of his silence would have been better for building his mystique than this half-baked bit of writing. 

 

So dumb. Seriously so dumb. The more I think about it the dumber it gets. 

Hmm, what better way to continue to downplay himself than to imply that he's not unique in downplaying himself, that it's something everyone in the motley (the patchwork cloak) does.

I'm sorry you're so dismissive of the line and it doesn't work for you.  

[JeffTheWoodlandElf]

9 minutes ago, KakitaOCU said:

Hmm, what better way to continue to downplay himself than to imply that he's not unique in downplaying himself, that it's something everyone in the motley (the patchwork cloak) does.

Using head canon to justify bad writing is the definition of having no taste. 

[KakitaOCU]

2 minutes ago, JeffTheWoodlandElf said:

Using head canon to justify bad writing is the definition of having no taste. 

What head canon?  I'm not inventing some complex and extended idea to justify the line.  

I'm literally tossing out what I immediately stream of thought felt and thought about the line at the time I watched it.

Maybe it's background?  I'm trained as a classical singer, I was trained in what essentially is a bard's skills.  I work as a criminal investigator where I need to understand how people act, why they do what they did and what has been done in the past.   So Thom basically screams Spy/Bard to me, which is what he is.  

You complain he's not shredding on his guitar, I recognize his gentle and non-significant accompaniment as natural to how you let a harp, guitar or lyre support a recitation.   You complain his laying false trails and implying gleemen can very well be more than they appear, I look at it and go "Yep, that tracks."

But, if you're now shifting from discussing a point to insulting me because I disagree with you think it's time to walk away.  Have a good one. 

[Badmaw]

The writers have changed so many important parts of the story that it’s lost the WOT vibe for me.  Changes aside, it’s poorly done.  It’s obvious that the writers/producers care more about working 2021 social issues into the show than presenting it as it should be.  Sadly, they’re using their platform to broadcast their personal social agendas.  Gay wardens, lesbian Aes Sedai.  Please!  It adds absolutely nothing to the WOT story!  I’m waiting to see how they work in BLM or defunding the police.  

[Sabio]

2 hours ago, JeffTheWoodlandElf said:

Also, the line, "We call ourselves gleemen because it sounds less dangerous. Nothing more dangerous than a man who knows the past" is up there for the dumbest line in the series so far. 

This is foreshadowing.  It will make alot of sense if they get to Book 4 and Book 5.

[Elder_Haman]

1 hour ago, JeffTheWoodlandElf said:

The idea that they're called "glee-men" not because they bring glee and do party tricks and play songs at taverns but because they're hoarding forbidden knowledge and want to throw those in power off their scent is enormously stupid. 

Uhhh, what? Thom said that "gleemen" is a silly name and then made the familiar point that bards and musicians know the past. I'm not sure where you're getting throwing people off of scents.

[JeffTheWoodlandElf]

47 minutes ago, KakitaOCU said:

What head canon?  I'm not inventing some complex and extended idea to justify the line.  

It works like this: 

1. The line is there

2. It doesn't really make sense. 

3. The narrative hasn't given us any justification for it

4. You come in saying, "The way I see it..." or "I like to think that..." and adding context which does not exist in the show in order to make the line work. 

 

It's not your job to make up reasons that stuff in the show makes sense. It's the writers' job to make sure things make sense. If you have to cover for them, then yes, you are using head canon to excuse bad writing.