Season 1 Discussion (Full Book Spoilers) v2.1

[swollymammoth]

49 minutes ago, Elder_Haman said:

In your opinion. 

As if forums aren't literally designed for the sharing of opinions and impressions. There's no such thing as an objective review of anything in the first place. No duh that's my opinion, just like your opinion is that the show is good. 

 

Just about any post on his forum could be dismissed with, "Well that's just your opinion." But then we wouldn't have a discussion, would we? And then what would be the point of this forum at all? 

 

"This episode was 53 minutes long." 

"Yes, it was." 

 

"Moiraine's hair is brown." 

"Indeed." 

 

"I like the show." 

"Well that's just your opinion." 

 

Riveting. 

 

Resorting to saying "that's just your opinion" out loud when that is the underlying assumption behind the entire mode of communication we're using is the same as conceding the argument. 

 

49 minutes ago, Elder_Haman said:

He’s had as much dialogue and screen time as anyone. 

 

Um, yeah. That's the problem. He should have had 70% of the screen time and dialogue. Instead Moiraine gets the vast majority and the rest are left to pick up the scraps. 

Edited December 12, 2021 by swollymammoth

[flinn]

 I just cant stop thinking how much better episode 5 would have been if the Lan scenes were Lan and Rand going through some Katas. Rand could ask about the bond considering he was the one who called Lan the Aes Sedai errand boy, and since it seems a lot of non-book readers think Rand will end up being Egwene's warder. Also could have Lan talking about the heron mark and a little talk about his dad and where the sword came from, once again playing into him becoming a warder and not the dragon.

Edited December 12, 2021 by flinn

[DojoToad]

2 hours ago, swollymammoth said:

Amazon literally does not care about the fans. It's nothing personal. It's just business. 

Weird. Not my quote…

[swollymammoth]

22 minutes ago, DojoToad said:

Weird. Not my quote…

Yeah, I ripped it off something you had replied to. Sorry ? I was just too lazy to scroll back through the discussion and find the original post. 

[orbops]

2 hours ago, swollymammoth said:

Amazon literally does not care about the fans. It's nothing personal. It's just business. 

Very true. But if the WoT book fans continually rip the show and give it 1 star, the overall ranking will drop. Look at how 1-5 stars is used everywhere now - aren't most people more inclined to go to a 4-5 star restaurant, than a 1-3 star one? Or use a higher rated service/product than a lower rated service/product?

[Hobo]

24 minutes ago, orbops said:

Very true. But if the WoT book fans continually rip the show and give it 1 star, the overall ranking will drop. Look at how 1-5 stars is used everywhere now - aren't most people more inclined to go to a 4-5 star restaurant, than a 1-3 star one? Or use a higher rated service/product than a lower rated service/product?

Its sad that i can honestly say that i dont know what would make me feel more sad, the show getting cancelled or the show continuing..

[swollymammoth]

Just now, orbops said:

Very true. But if the WoT book fans continually rip the show and give it 1 star, the overall ranking will drop. Look at how 1-5 stars is used everywhere now - aren't most people more inclined to go to a 4-5 star restaurant, than a 1-3 star one? Or use a higher rated service/product than a lower rated service/product?

I just don't think we owe the show anything. Why would I want the show to go on when it was obviously not made for me? Rafe and co. knew there were fans out there who would be dissatisfied with their decisions, and they prioritized the broader public audience over pleasing us. That's fine. It was his decision to make. Not every show is for everybody. I can accept that. 

 

However, why would I interest myself in perpetuating the existence such a show? You might say that the show will bring new readers to the books, but I'm not so sure. 

 

The people who came to the show for its 21st century feminist attitude (keep in mind, this was the audience the show was primarily marketed to) will be sorely disappointed by the books' outdated morality. Closeted lesbians, weirdly written female characters, a highly problematic "trans" character, and a world which largely embodies a traditionalist view on morality aren't going to impress anyone.

[futurehermit]

On 12/10/2021 at 9:25 AM, DaddyFinn said:

He carries it on his hips in every episode ? he drew it on Loial and Lan

Are you sure it is Tam's heron mark sword?  In episode 1, Rand and Tam both have swords when they kill the trolloc in their house.  On Tam's sword, the heron is clearly visible.  I don't recall seeing Tam give Rand his sword in that episode?

 

In future episodes, Rand refers to his sword as HIS sword and I don't recall seeing the heron when he uses it.

 

I could be wrong...can you point me to episodes/scenes where we see the heron on Rand's sword?

Edited December 12, 2021 by futurehermit

[futurehermit]

So about the waygate...

 

Moraine channels it open vs. How the trefoil leaves are used in the books.

 

We know from the books that the Ways were used to get the trollocs to the Two Rivers.  If they have to be channeled open, are we to assume that there was a black ajah helping them?  ? 

[DaddyFinn]

14 minutes ago, futurehermit said:

In episode 1, Rand and Tam both have Swords when they kill the trolloc in their house

I could be wrong but I think Rand killed the trolloc with a tool. Not a sword.

 

14 minutes ago, futurehermit said:

I could be wrong...can you point me to episodes/scenes where we see the heron on Rand's sword?

Episode 6. @22:13-22:15   when Rand draws the sword on Moiraine&Lan the heron is clearly visible above the handguard. The heron is also visible on the scabbard before that.

Edited December 12, 2021 by DaddyFinn

[futurehermit]

5 minutes ago, DaddyFinn said:

I could be wrong but I think Rand killed the trolloc with a tool. Not a sword.

 

Episode 6. @22:13-22:15   when Rand draws the sword on Moiraine&Lan the heron is clearly visible on the above the handguard. The heron is also visible on the scabbard before that.

Hmm, yeah, I stand corrected. He does kill the trolloc with a tool.  In the books, Rand spends a lot of time ruminating about the sword and always seems to refer to it as his father's sword.  Having him refer to it so boldly as his sword on the show just felt really jarring to me.  I guess he just took it after Tam was wounded?  The fact that so much was cut between the fight at the farm and Rand/Tam arriving in Emond's Field with wounded Tam kinda glossed over it for me.  

[TheSmurf]

5 hours ago, swollymammoth said:

In centering EotW around the mystery of "who is the DR," Rafe has turned those final moments from, "Oh my gosh, it's Rand. Noooooo...." to "Oh, so it was the ginger all along." 

Regardless of my opinion of the show... this got a chuckle out of me ?

[Jaysen Gore]

Just now, TheSmurf said:

Regardless of my opinion of the show... this got a chuckle out of me ?

Nah, they'll pull the ginger hair, and it'll be Cenn Buie under a mask. And he would have gotten away with it too, if it wasn't for those rotten kids.

[WheelofJuke]

12 hours ago, bringbackthomsmoustache said:

Do you think that crowd wanted a love song or "mara and the three foolish kings"?  Thom was playing the most miserable song (with deliberate off key singing to make it more mournful) he knew as a counter irritant to make their own miseries appear less.  And it worked (in the sense of getting tips and making the crowd keep drinking which are the measures of success for a gleeman).

This is mostly my personal nit-pick, I'll admit up front. 

 

Thom needs mustaches. I see I'll get no argument from you on this subject, based on your screen name. ?

 

Secondly, I don't care what instrument they wished to equip Thom with, but with the budget they have AT LEAST USE A REAL INSTRUMENT. Soo cringe when you see a "guitar" that is so obviously fake (the tuning keys were non-functioning wooden pegs) in the hands of a "master musician". 

 

They could've just turned him into a clown instead of a gleeman, and skipped the really difficult job of scaring up a real instrument. 

 

Absolutely unnecessarily cheap portrayal of a gleeman. 

 

I get it if people disagree, it just didn't jive with me.

 

 

Edited December 12, 2021 by WheelofJuke

[WheelofJuke]

46 minutes ago, Dead Warder said:

You mean something like this?

 

Thom!

 

You've plucked a vision from my mind, good work! ?

[ArrylT]

So I am watching the WoTSpoilers Ep2 Breakdown (plenty of good breakdown / reaction / discussion channels out there) and they brought up something that I do not recall seeing discussed before (apologies if incorrect).

 

Ep1 - We have Red Sisters gentling a male channeler (who screams as being gentled)

Liandrin says "You see what we've come here to do, Its a gift, you should thank me really"

 

Ep2 - Whitecloaks burn an Aes Sedai at the stake

Valda says "An Aes Sedai should know above all others, that sometimes brutality is the only path to mercy"

 

Ergo Aes Sedai should understand the most what he is doing since they do the same thing in a different way

 

-----

 

Talk about balance and perfectly diametrically opposing view points.   The Dragons Fang vs. the Flame of Tar Valon

 

Both see what they are doing as a kind of (a) mercy and (b) only their viewpoint is the valid one

 

I've talked before about how this show is really giving a sense of balancing everything. Further we can go into the action/reaction.  Cause/Effect.

 

If there were no Aes Sedai gentling male channelers, would there be any Questionners burning Aes Sedai?

 

Also the ring Valda got in Ep2 was his 7th ring.   7 Ajahs (although he did not have 1 ring per ajah)

 

Excluding the Moiraine Prologue which is more an open to the show than Ep1 then that scene with Liandrin is the cold open for Ep1

 

Ep1 - Red Ajah gentle male cold open balanced by Ep2 - Whitecloaks still woman (in a barbaric way) cold open

Ep3 - Nynaeve cold open balanced by Ep4 - Logain cold open and Nynaeves actions bring down Logain

Ep5 - Balanced within the episode 2 funerals

Ep6 - Balanced within the episode with need for Siuan to Journey to Tar Valon and need for the party to depart Tar Valon.

 

Balance balance balance.  The Wheel spins and what comes around goes around in a sense.

 

Guess we'll see how 7 & 8 play out.

Edited December 12, 2021 by ArrylT

[Skipp]

19 minutes ago, ArrylT said:

So I am watching the WoTSpoilers Ep2 Breakdown (plenty of good breakdown / reaction / discussion channels out there) and they brought up something that I do not recall seeing discussed before (apologies if incorrect).

 

Ep1 - We have Red Sisters gentling a male channeler (who screams as being gentled)

Liandrin says "You see what we've come here to do, Its a gift, you should thank me really"

 

Ep2 - Whitecloaks burn an Aes Sedai at the stake

Valda says "An Aes Sedai should know above all others, that sometimes brutality is the only path to mercy"

 

Ergo Aes Sedai should understand the most what he is doing since they do the same thing in a different way

 

-----

 

Talk about balance and perfectly diametrically opposing view points.   The Dragons Fang vs. the Flame of Tar Valon

 

Both see what they are doing as a kind of (a) mercy and (b) only their viewpoint is the valid one

 

I've talked before about how this show is really giving a sense of balancing everything. Further we can go into the action/reaction.  Cause/Effect.

 

If there were no Aes Sedai gentling male channelers, would there be any Questionners burning Aes Sedai?

 

Also the ring Valda got in Ep2 was his 7th ring.   7 Ajahs (although he did not have 1 ring per ajah)

 

Excluding the Moiraine Prologue which is more an open to the show than Ep1 then that scene with Liandrin is the cold open for Ep1

 

Ep1 - Red Ajah gentle male cold open balanced by Ep2 - Whitecloaks still woman (in a barbaric way) cold open

Ep3 - Nynaeve cold open balanced by Ep4 - Logain cold open and Nynaeves actions bring down Logain

Ep5 - Balanced within the episode 2 funerals

Ep6 - Balanced within the episode with need for Siuan to Journey to Tar Valon and need for the party to depart Tar Valon.

 

Balance balance balance.  The Wheel spins and what comes around goes around in a sense.

 

Guess we'll see how 7 & 8 play out.

Someone posted a theory about Valda's line you quoted there.  That in the show he was a man who could channel that submitted himself to gentling.  And now he meets out the same brutality/mercy/gift to all Aes Sedai as his one thing left to live for. It is a very fun theory but I doubt that will be the case.

[Hobo]

So.. are they going to have Rand blow the HoV at Falme and if so, Wtf is Mat going to do instead of being with the group at the EotW/Hunting the HoV after Fain steals it??

 

As they are going so far i wouldn't be surprised if they make Egwene the DR and the Amyrlin Seat

Edited December 13, 2021 by Hobo

[Ralph]

22 minutes ago, Hobo said:

So.. are they going to have Rand blow the HoV at Falme and if so, Wtf is Mat going to do instead of being with the group at the EotW/Hunting the HoV after Fain steals it??

 

As they are going so far i wouldn't be surprised if they make Egwene the DR and the Amyrlin Seat

 

You think Falme is this season? 

[Ashaman Caleb]

I really hope they minimize Moiranne’s role in the show after season 1. I don’t care about her character in the books or the show and the actor for Moiranne just makes me dislike her more.

 

I don’t get how they’re going to turn around and make Rand the lead when they’re not making viewers care about his character at all. If they even do that much with him at all. I get they’re trying to make new viewers guess who the Dragon Reborn is (it’s still pretty obvious tho) but it’s hurting more than anything and I feel like they don’t even care much about Rand’s character.

 

Egwene, Nynaeve, Moiranne, and Lan have all also felt vastly more important characters than Rand, Mat, and Perrin which is just absolutely bizarre.

 

I think what baffles me the most about this show isn’t what they cut, it’s what they add. You have huge books to adapt and rather than using them you just add new unimportant scenes and cut away parts that could be much more interesting and relevant. The Warder in episode 5 for example did not need so much focus. A random character subtracting from development and progress that could have been giving to our main characters that no one cares about because they don’t get enough screen time.

[Hobo]

17 minutes ago, Ralph said:

 

You think Falme is this season? 

No lol. I guess Mat could get to the Borderlands and meet the others in Fal Dara, but if he didn't want to go with the others to the EotW why would he ride solo to the Borderlands?

 

I just dont understand the change in Mats story. Like, not much was said about the dagger either iirc, Moraine "heals" him of the daggers taint and done and dusted. In the books he wasn't healed of the dagger until book 3, so now we have mat near the end of season one, nowhere near the EotW or Fal Dara and free of the dagger. I just dont understand what they are doing with this adaptation.. they had a vast amount of source material from an already amazing story.. i dont understand why they are adding all these random bits and pieces instead of just, ya know, following the story?

 

If they wanted to change it so heavily why not just write a new story?

 

 

[Gothic Flame]

1 minute ago, Hobo said:

If they wanted to change it so heavily why not just write a new story?

Aren't they already doing that?

[Hobo]

1 minute ago, Gothic Flame said:

Aren't they already doing that?

Lol, basically. I meant write a new story as in "Not mangle my favourite story" new story, but yea..

[KakitaOCU]

10 minutes ago, Hobo said:

I just dont understand what they are doing with this adaptation.. they had a vast amount of source material from an already amazing story.. i dont understand why they are adding all these random bits and pieces instead of just, ya know, following the story?

 

If they wanted to change it so heavily why not just write a new story?

 

 

 

A few points and maybe a new take on something I know has been brought up but maybe not considered in certain lights.

For Mat.  Part of this may be the actor leaving, we don't know yet and if that's the case then there is some leeway in the sense that maybe Mat wasn't supposed to leave but maybe they had no choice but to figure something out right away on the spot.

For the rest.  Several people have mentioned RJ2 saying he's trying to set the story as the whole story from the get go versus Season 1 being EotW.

If you knew the WHOLE story, and you were in a position that you wanted to push the whole story up front.  What changes would you make?

I ask this because RJ1 did not know he was going to push the whole story.  I daresay that for the first 3 books he was always writing them knowing it could be the end of the series no matter what.  Specially book 1.  So when he wrote book 1, he HAD to write it so that if TOR dropped him and the story it would stand alone in a way that wouldn't black mark him as an author to other publishers and wouldn't make the book unsatisfying to hurt its popularity.  

Hence why books 1-3 all have these nice neat "Everyone gets back together, fights the DarkOne and wins!" set up.  We don't even firmly learn that Ba'alzamon isn't the DO until book 3 as I recall, and it's all side pieces and the bit at the end of the book that confirm the idea that he's Ishie.  Which feels a lot like he was greenlit for more books in the middle of writing TDR and added a few pieces.

So you're asking why changes between a book written to be the only book published and written to be self contained and wrap up all issues without delving into details that don't matter for said book and a TV Show that's built from the get go to get to the end of the story are occurring.

 

[TheDreadReader]

50 minutes ago, KakitaOCU said:

 

A few points and maybe a new take on something I know has been brought up but maybe not considered in certain lights.

For Mat.  Part of this may be the actor leaving, we don't know yet and if that's the case then there is some leeway in the sense that maybe Mat wasn't supposed to leave but maybe they had no choice but to figure something out right away on the spot.

For the rest.  Several people have mentioned RJ2 saying he's trying to set the story as the whole story from the get go versus Season 1 being EotW.

If you knew the WHOLE story, and you were in a position that you wanted to push the whole story up front.  What changes would you make?

 

 

I realized sometime this weekend that there seem to be a bunch of people that say "It's not like the books" when they seem to mean "It's not like the book" (meaning TEOTW).  Yet, Rafe was pretty open before we saw a single episode that they were adapting the whole series and not just going book by book.

 

Perhaps, they were not fans enough to track all that before hand, I dunno.

 

He was also pretty open about including elements of books 1,2, and 3 in season 1 before we saw any episodes.  A lot of the 'scenes they created' amount to them doing exactly that.   It shouldn't really be that much of a shocker. 

 

Just take take the scene where Siuan meets Nyneave.  They meet in TGH.  They just moved the scene from TGH into season 1 and made contextual changes to make it fit with seeing the Tower in season 1 rather than in season 2.   Based on them moving bits of the Tower to season 1, we can reasonably assume that we're not going to see the AS go to Fal Dara at the start of season 2 and that Egwene and Nyneave will open season 2 already at the Tower.  That streamlines the story a little and they've established a reasonable foundation for showing Novice and Accepted stuff early in season 2.

 

The same with Mat staying behind, if they keep him in TV then they continue his healing/post-healing storyline right at the beginning of season 2.  It does create challenges but it is a good way to handle what would have been a challenge anyway as soon as a need to recast Mat was realized.

 

 

50 minutes ago, KakitaOCU said:

So you're asking why changes between a book written to be the only book published and written to be self contained and wrap up all issues without delving into details that don't matter for said book and a TV Show that's built from the get go to get to the end of the story are occurring.

 

Yes.   

 

Personally, I think it is more fun to speculate on what they plan on doing with the show than it is to get upset about it.  Most of the changes make a degree of sense after a little thinking about them.  But, mileages vary I suppose.

 

 

A lot of words to basically agree with you.  ?