Season 1 Discussion (Full Book Spoilers) v2.1

[Skipp]

12 minutes ago, phoenixtrinity said:

Thank you for the kind and honest answer! This sheds some light on what I've heard and makes a bit more sense. If I'm understanding correctly then, this relates to the WoT because WoT is a) being torn apart by book purists and b) not meeting the high quality standards of non-readers. So it will probably get cancelled after S2 ?

 

Is this an accurate summation? I admit, I'm really bummed because I love getting to share this universe with my husband, who will never read the books. But I am trying to honestly see where the show is heading.

I posted this the other day.  I found it on the Wotshow reddit concerning LotR movies.

 

Concerning Arwen

"Don't people know that it's impossible for the fiery young (seeming) woman to sneak up behind our rugged male warrior-ranger protagonist in the woods and put a sword to his throat while he's distracted by the medical needs of the person he's traveling with!? Ugh, feminism! /s"

 

Concerning cutting plot points

"If you cut Tom Bombadil, the whole story is wrecked. If you cut Tom, then how do the Hobbits escape the Barrow Downs? If you cut the Barrow Downs, how does Merry get a Westerness blade? If Merry doesn't have the Westerness blade, he can't hurt the Witch King, and then Eowyn would have no shot at killing him. Now we have the Witch King running free - what are they going to do...have Theodin kill him?"

 

And LotR is now considering the gold standard of adaptions.  Most people don't remember the fan backlash when the movies were coming out, the internet wasn't as big once upon a time.

[phoenixtrinity]

Thanks. That is interesting and I appreciate the reply.

 

On another note, it's been cool to be back here after 10+ years, but with all the negativity I think it's time I left the forums again. I was excited about the show, and I enjoyed discussion up until today. The majority of posts are either negative opinions on the show or breaking down what people do like about it, and I'm not really interested in faithless discussions (not saying that's all it's been, but that's been my day today and yesterday). I really thought this episode was the best yet, so I was surprised everyone hates it. I guess the Wheel weaves as the Wheel wills.

 

I'll continue to watch S1 and 2 with my husband and see his reactions until we see what happens with the show's fate.

 

Have a good time everyone, and thanks for having me back for a short time ?

 

[ArrylT]

27 minutes ago, phoenixtrinity said:

Thank you for the kind and honest answer! This sheds some light on what I've heard and makes a bit more sense. If I'm understanding correctly then, this relates to the WoT because WoT is a) being torn apart by book purists and b) not meeting the high quality standards of non-readers. So it will probably get cancelled after S2 ?

 

Is this an accurate summation? I admit, I'm really bummed because I love getting to share this universe with my husband, who will never read the books. But I am trying to honestly see where the show is heading.

 

Negative feedback / posts imo always tend to stick out more.   I've been devouring WOT content on Twitter & YT and honestly the majority (I'd have to estimate 75-80%) of the comments I see on the videos & tweets are positive or constructive criticism.   

 

As of this post 83% of people rating WOT on IMDB are rating it a 6 or better (so a heavy majority are not disliking the show), and its overall average has not budged in the past few weeks so it is consistently getting enough high ratings to maintain its current grade.  

Edited December 11, 2021 by ArrylT

[Skipp]

2 minutes ago, phoenixtrinity said:

Thanks. That is interesting and I appreciate the reply.

 

On another note, it's been cool to be back here after 10+ years, but with all the negativity I think it's time I left the forums again. I was excited about the show, and I enjoyed discussion up until today. The majority of posts are either negative opinions on the show or breaking down what people do like about it, and I'm not really interested in faithless discussions (not saying that's all it's been, but that's been my day today and yesterday). I really thought this episode was the best yet, so I was surprised everyone hates it. I guess the Wheel weaves as the Wheel wills.

 

I'll continue to watch S1 and 2 with my husband and see his reactions until we see what happens with the show's fate.

 

Have a good time everyone, and thanks for having me back for a short time ?

 

 

Sorry to see you leave.  I certainly feel tired from defending the show but I know every week I sit down to watch it with my wife is always a joy.  The best thing to do for your mental health is to avoid situations that bring you down constantly.

 

Stay safe and feel free to drop by with your thoughts anytime.

[Gothic Flame]

1 hour ago, phoenixtrinity said:

My question is... Why is Amazon banking on LotR if people are complaining about the WoT adaption the same as people complained about the LotR movies?

Others have made better responses, however it's something else to me anyway.

My exposure to lotr was in the 70s with the Rankin-bass cartoon, and then the Bakshi attempt. None of which hit that...aviance...the overall feel of high fantasy. It's only when Jackson's lotr that we see and feel it. The...music that begins in the opening scene that evokes an almost sorrowful note of something...lost, or perhaps forgotten. A world that doesn't exist, but we long for it..it's a gut punch hitting us where we, readers of fantasy, dreamers every one of us, live.

 

*blinks*

Sorry...I was gone for a minute. I'm back now.

[DaddyFinn]

Found this on twitter

 

 

Edit. I forgot that this had already been posted in the interviews&articles thread

Edited December 11, 2021 by DaddyFinn

[RhienneAgain]

6 minutes ago, DaddyFinn said:

Found this on twitter

 

That is really helpful, and I hope this is the conscious approach the showrunners have gone with.

[DaddyFinn]

1 minute ago, RhienneAgain said:

That is really helpful, and I hope this is the conscious approach the showrunners have gone with.

I suppose so. No matter what disappointed fans think of Rafe, he's definitely not incompetent at his job.

[DojoToad]

10 hours ago, RhienneAgain said:

After watching the most recent episode ok really struggling to understand why the writers/producers/showrunners/whatevers who are working on this have chosen to adapt a story they are so clearly uncomfortable with.  The focus on female characters to the detriment of Rand and Mat, the changing of the Dragon to male or female, the possibility of the many-headed dragon, etc. If they didn't feel RJ's story (which is laden with male/female specific details from minor aspects to incredibly major (magic system, world politics)) was acceptable in this day and age, why have they attempted to adapt it?  

 

Because they can make it 'more' acceptable.

[TheMountain]

20 minutes ago, DaddyFinn said:

I suppose so. No matter what disappointed fans think of Rafe, he's definitely not incompetent at his job.

Not incompetent, though I do think that he was an odd choice for showrunner... as his resume is a bit bare for an epic fantasy adaptation of this scope, and I think it shows.

[DojoToad]

10 hours ago, orbops said:

For all the Amazon adaptation haters out there, think of it this way. If too many fans are ripping this adaptation apart, we won't even get to season 3 - and that means non-readers will not be motivated to read the series. If this series ends up being successful, it could create spinoffs like what Star Trek Discovery has done on Paramount+. These potential spinoffs could always focus on one of the characters, or events. Wouldn't you rather have 5-7 years of a WoT adaptation, rather than nothing more in the future? Since Amazon has spent $80M on just season 1, why would any other streamer take a chance in the future of another adaptation?

You're giving too much power to the fans.  It doesn't matter how much the show gets ripped here or elsewhere - if they are getting enough views the show will continue.

 

If a non-reader loves the show enough to track down the books, they will be surprised...

[DojoToad]

16 minutes ago, TheMountain said:

Not incompetent, though I do think that he was an odd choice for showrunner... as his resume is a bit bare for an epic fantasy adaptation of this scope, and I think it shows.

True, but how many have a more padded resume - and were they interested?

 

They took a chance and gave him a shot.  Many think he is doing great.  I think it is awful, but I'm just one...

[RhienneAgain]

46 minutes ago, TheMountain said:

Not incompetent, though I do think that he was an odd choice for showrunner... as his resume is a bit bare for an epic fantasy adaptation of this scope, and I think it shows.

I don't think he's incompetent - he's brought the books to TV and that is an achievement in itself. The reviews and opinions seem to be quite split, so even if you're being negative I don't think it's fair to say he's incompetent as for every negative reaction there's a positive one to balance it out. I do think there's a bit of ego and agenda pushing into the show, and I think that's responsible for a lot of the issues rather than incompetence.

 

There are also instances of genuine sloppiness, like mispronunciations/inconsistent of character's names and lazy insertions of modern dialogue.

[RextheDog]

some stuff has really worked well. some stuff, if left unresolved, will feel like a miss.

 

overall though, as someone who wants to enjoy the WOT universe onscreen, i feel like i'm having to justify too much, like im having to stretch too much....

 

i could care less about accuracy of battle scenes and whether they used the same set for TV as they did for SL, i could care less whether TV and the WT seems 'too small' ( a valid criticism, but it wouldnt/doesnt impact me)

 

what i do care about is if the show runners are loyal to the theme of the show...at the moment, its line ball...theres some really really good stuff going on, but if you want to spend 2 episodes (in a row no less) indulging your own vision of RJs universe then you better make sure the payout is worth it.

 

 

i cant get my head around the arrogance of taking a perfectly formed universe and thinking you can improve on it....standing on the shoulders of giants springs to mind

 

 

for clarity, to really save this thing, just use more of the story perfectly laid out for you by a master story teller.

[DreadParrot]

I think the majority of criticisms are valid and the majority of positives are valid. What is largely infuriating is that elements are good enough to actually the make the bad that much worse. 
 

Moiraine,Siuan,Thom,Loial,Nynaeve,and to an extent Liandrian (if she is also Elaida mashed in) fit just fine in terms of characters for me and most. The Ogier speaks and it feels like Loial, appearance concerns aside it felt right. 
 

Most other characters are tolerable, albeit short changed on time and material to work with. 
 

The set pieces are good. Winterspring attack, the whitecloak camp, SL, and Tar Valon all work. 
 

If this show were chicken noodle soup, it has a good savory broth, tender chicken, and a great looking serving bowl. 
 

Then inexplicably they are trying this pump fake of who is the dragon. They are rearranging story beats and dedicating screen time to minor soon to be dead of rarely revisited characters. The swearing of the fourth oath scene in particular was like nails on a chalkboard, did no hear moiraine swear to Siuan and not the amrylian seat itself? Did no one hear the fishing terms of endearment during a massive punishment? The sudden departure to go fight the DO at the eye was so awful. The grinwell family being killed by the Fade makes no sense in the context of the show largely because as show viewers we don’t know what a fade is. Too many things glossed over or ignored. 
 

A comparison is The Witcher…never played the games or read a novel and they keep shoving the Law of Surprise down the throat without ever explaining what the hell it was…got to give us info or we don’t understand. 
 

These erratic story beats and sudden dumbing down of characters is like throwing yogurt into the chicken soup, and adding bananas instead of veggies. It don’t fit and makes the whole thing feel worse. You can build a thousand bridges and crap in a single bed, the world will remember you for crapping the bed and not building bridges. Perhaps there is a logical progression and some of this weirdness will get paid off. Til then trying to take it with a grain of salt. 
 

As it stands I don’t see this making it past three seasons. 

[Gothic Flame]

For all the criticism I've had and heard, the one consistent bright spot seemed to have been Barney Harris. And the only reasons I've been seeing have been rather flippant;

"He's making everyone else look bad by being the only one that can act;"

 

"Carrying that damn dagger does take a toll..."

Edited December 11, 2021 by Gothic Flame
Spelling

[DaddyFinn]

 

Found this on discord when someone pointed out how Rand has been shoved to the background.

 

 

 

[Vartija]

I wonder why the first episode was only 54 minutes when all the rest have been 57-62 minutes long? After the first episode I assumed that most episodes would be around 50 minutes, but it bugs me that they were clearly willing to have 60 minute episodes but couldn't come up with more material for the first one. 

 

Just hard to come up with excuses for why the first episode felt so rushed when they didn't even use the full 60 minutes. Certainly the departure scene could have been fleshed out a lot more with extra 6-8 minutes. ?

[NinjaPowers975]

I'm starting to wonder how much of Barney Harris's material was cut from the final edit of the whole season when they found out he wasn't going to be available at the end.

 

Where there whole character sub-plots they had to cut around when they realized they wouldn't be able to pay them off in Fal Dara? Did they decide to reduce his screen time because they didn't want people to get too attached to him?

 

There was quite a bit of Rand/Mat stuff in the first 3 episodes. Then suddenly all their scenes started getting a lot shorter. We drop in on them for a few seconds, and then cut away real quick without giving the scenes time to sink in. The Grinwell farm stuff, for instance, was plenty dramatic, but it felt like everything was very rushed.

 

Anyway, it seems possible that some of the issues with focus on side-plots these last couple of episodes (especially in ep 6) might be a case of editing around scenes that had to be thrown out.

 

Things felt off in episode 6, in pretty much the same way that episode 1 felt off. It was less obvious, because this episode had so many outstanding scenes, but now that I've had time to let it sink in, I think episode 6 feels kind of broken.

 

I wonder how different it is from the script Sanderson read? Maybe he'll comment on it eventually.

Edited December 11, 2021 by NinjaPowers975

[Sabio]

Am I the only one who thought Egwene and Nyn meeting Siuan didn't add much?  Don't get me wrong I loved the Siuan waits for only one woman and it's not you comment and Egwene's face when she finds out Nyn is stronger.  But overall I just didn't find the scene meaning much or if it had been cut that it would of really affected the episode.  Seemed like wasted time or am I missing something?

Edited December 11, 2021 by Sabio

[expat]

Quote

Am I the only one who thought Egwene and Nyn meeting Siuan didn't add much?  Don't get me wrong I loved the Siuan waits for only one woman and it's not you comment and Egwene's face when she finds out Nyn is stronger.  But overall I just didn't find the scene meaning much or if it had been cut it really affecting the episode.  Seemed like wasted time or am I missing something?

I thought it worked because it really showed the difference in character between the two.  Nyn was stubborn, distrustful, and arrogant while Eg was all "let's go save the world".  

[DaddyFinn]

8 minutes ago, expat said:

I thought it worked because it really showed the difference in character between the two.  Nyn was stubborn, distrustful, and arrogant while Eg was all "let's go save the world".  

And even Nynaeve stopped immediately when Siuan lifted her finger. That's saying something

[joikd]

I was so excited for this show. It has been nothing but a letdown for me from the start. Anyway, it has probably be said a million times before here in this forum, but I would be thrilled with an animated version of the books that contained as much detail as possible and that simply stuck to the books. No need for big names or anything. Just give us ALL of ALL of the books as a visual.

 

[Sabio]

I did notice when at the entrance to the Ways when Moiriane was asked if she still didn't know who the Dragon was that she never answered the question.  I found this interesting and thought maybe she does suspect who it could be.

[TheMountain]

3 hours ago, DaddyFinn said:

 

Found this on discord when someone pointed out how Rand has been shoved to the background.

 

 

 

Data can be meaningless without context. It's not just a straight word count that matters, but the focus of the story, events that happen, characters they interact with, things they say, etc. I think it's pretty obvious to most people that Rand has been sidelined so far.

 

Edited December 11, 2021 by TheMountain