Season 1 Discussion (Full Book Spoilers) v2.1

[SinisterDeath]

30 minutes ago, Elder_Haman said:

I don't. This seems like pretty typical banter between a group of men who spend time together. But I would have appreciated a contrary story that highlighted an impressive feat, with the 'lousy horsemanship' joke having more of a, "well he's not great at everything, remember that time..." vibe.

I'd say a group of guy's giving Lan shit for being a "lousy horseman" tracks fairly well.

Sure, as a group they could act as his wing-men and talk their boy up in front of Nynaeve, but instead we got shit talking banter. That first night, Stepin was toying with Nynaeve by implying Lan and Moiraine could have been intimate, and her jealousy confirmed she liked Lan.

[Elder_Haman]

Just now, SinisterDeath said:

I'd say a group of guy's giving Lan shit for being a "lousy horseman" tracks fairly well.

Sure, as a group they could act as his wing-men and talk their boy up in front of Nynaeve, but instead we got shit talking banter. That first night, Stepin was toying with Nynaeve by implying Lan and Moiraine could have been intimate, and her jealousy confirmed she liked Lan.

I agree with all of this. Like I said, I just feel like they've missed several opportunities to either (1) build a legend; or (2) give him a moment to be awesome. We neither have legendariness nor awesomeness at this point.

[Ralph]

10 minutes ago, Yojimbo said:

whatever the case, it is a terrible scene.  Another example (IMO) of Rafe deciding he knows better.   "Hey, I've  got it!  Let's add a scene where Lan does something so out of character from who he is in the books that he seems a completely different person!   Its not like anyone will care."  

 

Sour grapes on my part?  Maybe.  But just as valid an opinion as those willing to accept any deviations from he characters.

You are entitled to any opinion you like, but personally I find it strange that anyone seriously believes Rafe has added scenes solely because he thinks he is a better writer, and that these scenes should have been in the books. 

 

If you want to know why they added this, instead of assuming this, maybe think what reasons there could be. 

 

Simple possibility is that since a lot of the focus of the episode is the relationship btw AS/Warder, and that that this results in the suicide, they felt it would be lacking without a ceremony.

In the BtS clip Rafe said they wanted the episode bookended by the two funerals of the AS and her Warder, for the effect of that visually as an episode.

It is also an opportunity to show different cultures and rituals in the world of WoT, which was a tremendous focus of the series, though not specifically in terms of funeral rites. This is not a reason in itself, but if doing it for the other reasons, why not make it this also

 

Would RJ have done this if writing for TV? We cannot know. 

Do we have to agree with it, or think it is done well? Obviously not

 

But there def is a reason

 

And personally I enjoy thinking about the reasons, and deciding whether I agree, as part of the watching experience 

Edited December 6, 2021 by Ralph

[Yojimbo]

14 minutes ago, Ralph said:

You are entitled to any opinion you like, but personally I find it strange that anyone seriously believes Rafe has added scenes solely because he thinks he is a better writer, and that these scenes should have been in the books. 

 

If you want to know why they added this, instead of assuming this, maybe think what reasons there could be. 

 

Simple possibility is that since a lot of the focus of the episode is the relationship BTW AS/Warder, and that that this results in the suicide, they felt it would be lacking without a ceremony.

In the BtS clip Rafe said they wanted the episode bookended by the two funerals of the AS and her Warder, for the effect of that visually as an episode.

It is also an opportunity to show different cultures and rituals in the world of WoT, which was a tremendous focus of the series, though not specifically in terms of funeral rites. This is not a reason in itself, but if doing it for the other reasons, why not make it this also

 

Would RJ have done this if writing for TV? We cannot know. 

Do we have to agree with it, or think it is done well? Obviously not

 

But there def is a reason

 

And personally I enjoy thinking about the reasons, and deciding whether I agree, as part of the watching experience 

It could have been done in the first five minutes of the episode.  It was heavy handed, hitting the audience over the head with the idea for an entire episode,  and wasted a LOT of time that could have been used furthering the story.   As a writer, you have to trust your audience to see things sometimes and not bludgeon them with a point you want to make to the point almost of parody. 

 

1. they show the burial during which Stepin is clearly barely keeping his shit together.

2. after the burial he wanders off with the look of a man who is not well

3. the next morning he is found dead in his tent

4. Lan explains the reason why to Nyn, who looks frightened and appalled.

5. Stepin is buried next to his Aes Sedai. Lan repeats the "last embrace of the mother" catechism, and maybe looks saddened, before re-assuming his mask of stoicism. 

DONE

Edited December 6, 2021 by Yojimbo

[KakitaOCU]

8 minutes ago, Yojimbo said:

It could have been done in the first five minutes of the episode.  It was heavy handed, hitting the audience over the head with the idea for an entire episode,  and wasted a LOT of time that could have been used furthering the story.   As a writer, you have to trust your audience to see things sometimes and not bludgeon them with a point you want to make to the point almost of parody. 

That's a fine line (as I mention in other threads).

I can come up easily with two examples of the Author trying to trust the audience and not bludgeon them and the result is a bunch of people claiming Lan has been made incompetent.

Like the idea that Lan isn't a badass fighters and is an incompetent tracker in Episode 2.  If you look at the details, Lan clearly rode away and slaughtered trollocs, coming back with barely a scratch and that he found the White Cloaks and came back with plenty of time for Moraine to decide how she wanted to procede.

But no one says that specifically.  Instead we have Lan coming back with progressively growing scrapes and cuts but no real injury.  Then we have the scene change in the WC prep to show passage of time and movement.  

 

[Yojimbo]

33 minutes ago, Elder_Haman said:

No one said otherwise. 

I'm just trying to dial in on the actual problem: not liking the scene. The scene doesn't do it for you? Fine. Didn't really do it for me either. But it's not a good example for people who are trying to argue that they've emasculated Lan and/or wildly changed his character. 

I think for me, as well as for others, the sheer number of times where Lan acts differently than he would in the books (both in his personality and in his less than stellar competence) culminated in this scene, which makes me at least feel that we will NEVER really see the Lan that was presented on paper.   

[Elder_Haman]

3 minutes ago, Yojimbo said:

the sheer number of times where Lan acts differently than he would in the books

I guess I don't see Lan acting differently than he would in the books. I see Lan being presented with different situations than he was in the books. I think his reactions have been (mostly) true to character.

[Ralph]

25 minutes ago, Yojimbo said:

It could have been done in the first five minutes of the episode.  It was heavy handed, hitting the audience over the head with the idea for an entire episode,  and wasted a LOT of time that could have been used furthering the story.   As a writer, you have to trust your audience to see things sometimes and not bludgeon them with a point you want to make to the point almost of parody. 

 

1. they show the burial during which Stepin is clearly barely keeping his shit together.

2. after the burial he wanders off with the look of a man who is not well

3. the next morning he is found dead in his tent

4. Lan explains the reason why to Nyn, who looks frightened and appalled.

5. Stepin is buried next to his Aes Sedai. Lan repeats the "last embrace of the mother" catechism, and maybe looks saddened, before re-assuming his mask of stoicism. 

DONE

 

Lovely

 

So now you are saying you appreciate and understand his reasons. You may even agree with them. 

 

However, you feel he spent too long over it and you would have done it differently

 

That is very different from saying that this is another example of RJII considering himself a better storyteller than RJI

 

Would I prefer your version to his? Which do I think RJ himself would have done? Which do I think a non book reader would react better to? 

 

All very interesting questions, and contemplating them multiplies the viewing experience manifold. 

[Ralph]

1 hour ago, Maximillion said:

 He could be portrayed dancing around in pink stilettos 

 

 

 

 

 

Nynaeve suggests something like this at one point, iirc

[Yojimbo]

39 minutes ago, Ralph said:

 

Lovely

 

So now you are saying you appreciate and understand his reasons. You may even agree with them. 

 

However, you feel he spent too long over it and you would have done it differently

 

That is very different from saying that this is another example of RJII considering himself a better storyteller than RJI

 

Would I prefer your version to his? Which do I think RJ himself would have done? Which do I think a non book reader would react better to? 

 

All very interesting questions, and contemplating them multiplies the viewing experience manifold. 

Not what I said at all.  And thanks for the snark.

 

My point was that if he insisted on making wholesale changes the least he could do is not waste an entire episode on it, and not have Lan act in a way that was so different than the character who was in the book.         He has limited time to tell this story and he spent a lot of time bludgeoning the audience with the concept that Warders and Aes Sedai have deep bonds, so deep that it could result in the survivor killing himself.  In my opinion that is bad writing.   

 

 

[Ralph]

4 minutes ago, Yojimbo said:

Not what I said at all.  And thanks for the snark.

 

My point was that if he insisted on making wholesale changes the least he could do is not waste an entire episode on it, and not have Lan act in a way that was so different than the character who was in the book.         He has limited time to tell this story and he spent a lot of time bludgeoning the audience with the concept that Warders and Aes Sedai have deep bonds, so deep that it could result in the survivor killing himself.  In my opinion that is bad writing.   

 

 

No snark intended

 

Sorry if it came over that way

 

The point I am making, which I have said numerous times, is that "he thinks he is a better writer than RJ" "he has never read the books" "he can't possibly love the books like we do" are pointless statements, and in my opinion factually untrue, def there is no evidence for any of them. 

 

In your last two posts you have explained why you feel he did it wrong even if his intentions were correct. That is constructive criticism, and every point in it is worth considering and maybe arguing about. 

 

The post before that you said he thinks he is a better writer than RJ. That is a pointless statement to make, and cannot possibly create any debate or contribute to improvements in the show

Edited December 6, 2021 by Ralph

[Theseus78]

2 hours ago, Maximillion said:

 

The friend was a character not in the books too.  So a friend and a ceremony not in the books so they could show Lan having an emotional episode.

Stepin is in the books. 

[WOTReader2]

18 minutes ago, Ralph said:

No snark intended

 

Sorry if it came over that way

 

The point I am making, which I have said numerous times, is that "he thinks he is a better writer than RJ" "he has never read the books" "he can't possibly love the books like we do" are pointless statements, and in my opinion factually untrue, def there is no evidence for any of them. 

 

In your last two posts you have explained why you feel he did it wrong even if his intentions were correct. That is constructive criticism, and every point in it is worth considering and maybe arguing about. 

 

The post before that you said he thinks he is a better writer than RJ. That is a pointless statement to make, and cannot possibly create any debate or contribute to improvements in the show

 

I think a major issue that people have is that there are 14 books worth of content, a lot of which is needing to be cut for the tv series. So, why are they introducing new material into a series that already needs severe cutting down?

 

Rath may like the idea of the bond between the warder and the aes sedai, but, even though it was an element in the book, it was never a a major contributor towards the main storyline. Most of it related to the romance between Lan and Nynaeve, which was a side plot, to be honest.

 

There is a reason why Robert Jordan didn't make it a bigger deal: because it was never meant to be bigger. It was a nice part of the world building and added to the relationship issue between the two characters, but it never needed to be anything more than that. 

 

In the end, we have already seen quite a lot of elements cut from book one. Half of that last episode was wasted on a made-up storyline to build quite a small element in the total course of the series. And it was quite harmful to that episode, at least: rushed introduction and awkward conversations of Loial being the main one.

Edited December 6, 2021 by WOTReader2

[Ralph]

On 12/4/2021 at 11:21 PM, 2RiversFan said:

Not in any that I've seen, and I've watched all 5 "Origin stories".  In the Warder one, they only mention Jeorom and Blademasters, no mention of the increased capabilities brought by the bond.

 

Sorry taken so long till I got back to this

 

It is mentioned in the x Ray info to ep1 scene 15

 

Quite well hidden though, I agree

[Ralph]

2 minutes ago, WOTReader2 said:

 

I think a major issue that people have is that there are 14 books worth of content, a lot of which is needing to be cut for the tv series. So, why are they introducing new material into a series that already needs severe cutting down?

 

Rath may like the idea of the bond between the warder and the aes sedai, but, even though it was an element in the book, it was never a a major contributor towards the main storyline. Most of it related to the romance between Lan and Nynaeve, which was a side plot, to be honest.

 

There is a reason why Robert Jordan didn't make it a bigger deal: because it was never meant to be bigger. It was a nice part of the world building and added to the relationship issue between the two characters, but it never needed to be anything more than that. 

 

In the end, we have already seen quite a lot of elements cut from book one. Half of that last episode was wasted on a made-up storyline to build quite a small element in the total coarse of the series. And it was quite harmful to that episode, at least: rushed introduction and awkward conversations of Loial being the main one.

 

I appreciate your arguments, and they are all worth considering. Personally I think the bond is relevant to many different significant plot points - Lan after Moiraine vanishes, the transfer of the bond, Alanna and mindrape, Rand/Alanna in Shayol Ghul, and more

 

But with your response, again, I see that you are discussing whether the changes are justified and whether they are done correctly, which is the correct approach imo

 

Thank you

 

I wish all the forums would only be about the material points, and all posts about whether RJII loves the books and RJ's writing would be deleted

 

 

[Elder_Haman]

5 minutes ago, WOTReader2 said:

Rath may like the idea of the bond between the warder and the aes sedai, but, even though it was an element in the book, it was never a a major contributor towards the main storyline.

But, it kinda was: Alanna bonding Rand; Elayne bonding Birgitte; Avi and Elayne bonding Rand. None of these have anything to do with the Lan/Nyn romance, but they are all essential plot elements.

[notpropaganda73]

Honestly, I just want more indicators of Lan’s legend. The funeral scene was fine, apart from the shirt rip felt way OTT. I think it’s totally in keeping with Lan from the books to take on everyone’s grief if asked. Frankly, what would people angry with that prefer to see in that scenario? Him not go to the funeral? To say, during the ceremony, “No, I don’t show emotion actually, and to be honest we should be looking for the Dragon Reborn right now, this is a waste of time”? Just seems so juvenile to hone in on *this scene* being the “problem” with Lan more than the missed opportunities to build his legend, as mentioned by Elder_Haman.

 

One such opportunity was the campfire scene to be honest. When Stepin and Nynaeve are alone, there is a chance there for Stepin to hint at who Lan really is. But instead, we got the “Aes Sedai - servants of all” line. Missed opportunity. The tracking thing was another. I don’t really care that Nynaeve tracked them, I just wish Lan said something without turning to show he knew she was there.

 

Those are small character building moments they’ve missed. Him taking on lead mourner in this ceremony and grieving for a friend? Absolutely not the issue

[Gothic Flame]

7 minutes ago, notpropaganda73 said:

 Frankly, what would people angry with that prefer to see in that scenario? Him not go to the funeral? To say, during the ceremony, “No, I don’t show emotion actually, and to be honest we should be looking for the Dragon Reborn right now, this is a waste of time”? 

How about the writers focus on what's in the books and not fabricate time-wasting scenes?

Edited December 6, 2021 by Gothic Flame

[notpropaganda73]

4 minutes ago, Gothic Flame said:

How about the writers focus on what's in the books and not fabricate time-wasting scenes?

Look, this was my least favourite episode because I feel we have limited time in this first season and very little development of our main EF5. However I think the whole Stepin story was very well done and executed, my only issue with it is that we have focussed on the Warder/Aes Sedai bond to a degree that meant the entire thrust of the story took a back seat in this episode.

 

We can be annoyed at the diversion from the main story, I just don’t think Lan’s behaviour in the funeral scene is anything to be upset about. 

[DreadParrot]

I have made a simple mental shift that is allowing to me enjoy this show far more than I first entered with. This is not the wheel of time being adapted. Instead I have chosen to view it as an adaptation of a single chapter from the entire series. We are watching one of the infinite flickers shown when rand lodges them in the portal stones during great hunt and he sees hundreds of his possible lives flash before his eyes. It’s still a wheel of time story but one of the myriad what if’s. I can tolerate things much better through that lens. 
 

 

[ArrylT]

4 hours ago, Elder_Haman said:

I'm having trouble understanding what exactly the issue is with Lan. Before I start - I've said elsewhere and still maintain - that he is the character that is most different from his portrayal in the books. On the other hand - the place he occupies as a character in the show really isn't that much different.

 

Lan is a Warder. He is bonded to Moiraine. Their journey together is the single most important thing in his life. He is entirely dedicated to Moiraine and will do whatever is necessary to help her achieve her goal. He is still all of those things in the show.

 

And he is still stoic - to a degree. He emotes to 2 people: Moiraine (his Aes Sedai) and Stepin (his close friend?) He certainly hasn't been turned into some blubbering wimp as some seem to suggest. The demonstration of emotion at Steppin's funeral was called for. He was specifically asked to be the person who performed acts of ritualized grief - the beating of the breast and the rending of clothes is a ritualized act (see, for example, the Jewish keriah). Him screaming and tearing his clothing is similar in this context to a priest saying a prayer. It has nothing to do with him being unmanly.

 

I think where the show has failed with Lan isn't so much that they have devalued him - they haven't. But rather, they have missed opportunities to give us a sense of his real ability. As a character in the books, we know Lan to be hyper capable, but all we know of him thus far in the show is as sort of ... average. Maybe above average as a swordsman, given his performance on Winternight. Apart from that, however, he hasn't really done anything. Lan needs a moment - all on his own - that shows him to be more than just a guy who's pretty good with a sword. Hopefully it's coming.

 

 

 

 

Well said.   I hope it is ok to add that a lot depends on what ones definition of stoic is

 

Here is one I like:

 

Essential Meaning of stoic. : a person who accepts what happens without complaining or showing emotion.

 

And here is something from twitter today

 

 

or this:

 

 

 

Taking that and looking at a scene from Episode 4 around the Campfire

 

Lan shows stoicism quickly in 2 aspects

 

1 - Other warders kid about his horsemanship

 

Lan does not complain or argue he is being made fun of or get defensive or upset or emotional.  He showcases a subtle wry chuckle, as if to accept this is the price to be paid with fellow warders/friends, but otherwise makes no comment. That is an example of being stoic.

 

Even when Stepin says "shit horseman" - Lan does not react negatively.  He accepts the comment and moves on.

 

2 -  Move forward a few moments and Nynaeve interrupts him and says "I tracked him" - she cuts Lan off.

 

Does Lan get upset?  Does he get frazzled?  Nope.  Again he shows a brief almost ambiguous facial expression.  

 

Overall He lets it all bounce right off him, imho.

 

During that whole scene at the campfire Lan says very few words, doesnt react negatively to anything and even deflects attention from himself & Moiraine.  

 

About the only bit of "complaining" is his feeling a little tired-  which with Moiraine obviously just coming off the shift guarding.  Maybe he could have said nothing, but that dialogue is used as an exit.

 

Basically for me, upon a deeper study of just Lan - the actor plays him very stoic & pretty much like Lan in the books (in the background and not the centre of attention) and allows all the other actors to dominate.   It simply does not steal the spotlight but that is part of what stoic is - not saying look at me or my acting.

 

Great example of why being fully stoic is difficult to portray - because doing so allows others to shine at your expense.

Edited December 6, 2021 by ArrylT

[ArrylT]

1 hour ago, Theseus78 said:

Stepin is in the books. 

 

Yes I believe both are in New Spring.   Both are definitely in the WOT Wiki and the Companion book.

 

And in the wiki there is additional justification why Stepin & Kerene were involved in getting Logain captured.

 

https://wot.fandom.com/wiki/Kerene_Nagashi

 

Spoiler

She had been Aes Sedai for well over one hundred years when she was hand-picked to become one of Tamra Ospenya's Searchers to find the Dragon Reborn after Tamra heard Gitara Moroso's Foretelling.

 

Since she would still be searching for Dragon Reborn candidates.

[ArrylT]

57 minutes ago, notpropaganda73 said:

The tracking thing was another. I don’t really care that Nynaeve tracked them, I just wish Lan said something without turning to show he knew she was there.

 

 

I've studied that scene pretty closely.   It isnt ideally edited, imo, so I think it if had been edited/angled better his last sigh before Nynaeves sudden arrival would have been able to have been taken as acknowledgement that someone he knew was there.  But still probably, at least due to the bond, was not expecting her to hold a weapon to his throat.   I think the editing there could have been a little more crisp.  But that is just my pov.

 

I understand what the purpose was.  I just wonder if it could have been edited better to show both Nynaeves sudden arrival without making it appear that Lan was caught off guard.  However with his focus on Moiraine I think most non-book audience forgave him that lapse.

[Jaysen Gore]

3 hours ago, Elder_Haman said:

I agree with all of this. Like I said, I just feel like they've missed several opportunities to either (1) build a legend; or (2) give him a moment to be awesome. We neither have legendariness nor awesomeness at this point.

But at this point, you are not entitled to Legendariness. "Become the King you were born to be" was one of the biggest complaints I had about ROTK, but there it was. And if you though Lan was going to get to be superman, when the man he's patterned off of wasn't, I'm afraid you're not paying attention to Hollywood. No one is allowed to be hyper competent anymore. No one is allowed not to have feet of clay. No one is allowed to be unflawed. It offends the audience, and puts them off.

 

There will be awesomeness to come, and 2 legendary moments for Lan, but they're in 2028 and 2029. I suggest you stay tuned if you want them at all

[Gothic Flame]

1 hour ago, notpropaganda73 said:

We can be annoyed at the diversion from the main story, I just don’t think Lan’s behaviour in the funeral scene is anything to be upset about. 

Spoiler

Lan hesitated, then spoke in a loud voice. "Why do we mourn?"

the soldiers nearby turned toward him.

"Is this not what we have trained for?" Lan shouted. "Is this not our purpose, our very lives? This war is not a thing to mourn. Other men may have been lax, but we have not been. We are prepared, and so this is a time of glory."

  "Let their be laughter! Let there be joy! Let us cheer the fallen and drink to our forefathers, who taught us well. If you die on the morrow, awaiting your rebirth, be proud. The Last Battle is upon us, and we are ready!"