Adaptation or Fanfiction, and Harriet's views of the TV Show

[Ralph]

It is truly fascinating

 

So many questions... 

 

... and the only possible rational answer is... 

 

... because she agrees with the reasoning behind the changes and thinks RJ would probably also!! 

 

But of course that is not possible

[Spiritweaver1]

Just a silly question. Does anybody know what actual leverage Harriet actually has over the show?  Has she said she approves all changes?  I seriously doubt Amazon would sign a contract that didn't give them more or less total control over the show content.  I am not aware that Harriet has any experience developing/directing or producing TV content.  I also believe there would be a clause requiring she and BS to provide PR support.   That means not bad mouthing the horse before it reaches the first turn.  

[SinisterDeath]

35 minutes ago, Ryrin said:

The rights to Red Eagle expired and returned back to Harriet.

The right's didn't actually revert back to Harriet and the Bandersnatch group. It's a complicated mess..

The TLDR is, "Red Eagle Entertainment"  is now "iwot Productions", "Larry Mondragon" & Rick Selvage are producers. (Mondragon was even at the blue-carpet event, and I found it funny when he just kinda "stepped away from" Jason's camera during their live coverage.)

 

Their company then sold/optioned their rights to Sony to create the series, with Amazon as the distributor.

 

Quote

Sony & Amazon

After such a series of high-profile failures, it’s unsurprising that Wheel of Time fans had lost faith in Red Eagle to achieve anything with their option. However, in early 2014, (almost the second the Universal deal expired) Red Eagle entered into discussions with Radar Pictures and Sony Television about a TV adaptation of The Wheel of Time, following the huge success of Game of Thrones at HBO. These early talks would eventually lead to Sony and Amazon Television joining forces to take on the project, resulting in the project currently shooting in the Czech Republic, with Red Eagle as consulting producers (but not with any decision-making power). Even that was a strange saga, with Red Eagle self-funding their own pilot called The Winter Dragon starring Billy Zane to hold onto the rights a bit longer so they could claim a share of the Sony deal. Harriet McDougal, Robert Jordan’s widow, took exception to this and expressed her displeasure publicly. A lawsuit followed, and Red Eagle counter-sued for slander, a move which obviously proved unpopular in the fandom. The two parties eventually settled out-of-court.

 

The saga of the previous not-to-be adaptations of The Wheel of Time is fascinating in its own right, and it’ll be interesting to see what the end result of this twenty-year journey is when Amazon finally brings the books to the screen next year.

 

[CaddySedai]

1 hour ago, Ralph said:

RJ would probably also!! 

 

But of course that is not possible

 

It is weird to say that. The vocal detractors to the show have constantly decried the concept of "Portal Stone World" or "Another Turning of the Wheel" calling it nonsense,

 

Robert Jordan himself greenlit the idea that the Wheel of Time in another medium is a PSW. (See The Wheel of Time video game).

 

Sanderson (the series' other writer) has expressed he likes the idea of another turning.

 

So it is kind of amusing when people claim RJ would not approve to changes to his book series in an adaptation when saying that the idea of a PSW is also invalid. 

 

So what is it. That RJ only is right when it comes to not changing anything...but when he authorized a change its...not ok?

 

I think he would have preferred his books to be produced correctly - but if told its an impossibility he would not have stood in his own way. Just as he did with the game. He made it work and still preserved the books.

Edited December 7, 2021 by CaddySedai

[Deviations]

2 hours ago, notpropaganda73 said:

Something that people would do well to remember is that Harriet has probably seen the full storyboarding or outline for season 1 at the least, so would have a good knowledge as to why the show has gone in the direction it has. - Fair point

 

Outside of that I find it a little distasteful to talk about really. Robert Jordan is unfortunately no longer with us, we have absolutely no idea how he would feel about the TV show, about how Brandon finished the series, about what he'd think about anything really. The closest person that would know is Harriet, and it's not fair to put anything "on" her in terms of the show, how upset we are about certain things, or any of the rest.  - She is a public figure at this point.  It is fair for me to wonder why she feels this is a good representation of their work.  Maybe she'll say more in a later interview.  I may end up saying something like "oh dang!  I didn't think about it that way!", or I may say "WTF?  That makes no sense!".  We'll see.

 

[notpropaganda73]

1 minute ago, Deviations said:

 

I just find it a bit uncomfortable to talk about. She doesn’t owe us an answer to anything. Speculating about her motives or even blaming her for what the show is just feels a bit… unfair? (Not saying you are blaming her, just trying to explain my POV).
 

I don’t like the personal nature of some of the criticisms of Rafe either but he is directly responsible for what we are seeing. Harriet isn’t. 

[ArrylT]

1 hour ago, SinisterDeath said:

The right's didn't actually revert back to Harriet and the Bandersnatch group. It's a complicated mess..

The TLDR is, "Red Eagle Entertainment"  is now "iwot Productions", "Larry Mondragon" & Rick Selvage are producers. (Mondragon was even at the blue-carpet event, and I found it funny when he just kinda "stepped away from" Jason's camera during their live coverage.)

 

Their company then sold/optioned their rights to Sony to create the series, with Amazon as the distributor.

 

 

 

He referred to himself as a Forsaken on one of the other feeds by content creators. ?

 

Either way I appreciate you giving context about that history as it definitely is confusing. 

 

 

[SinisterDeath]

10 minutes ago, Deviations said:

She is a public figure at this point.  It is fair for me to wonder why she feels this is a good representation of their work.  Maybe she'll say more in a later interview.  I may end up saying something like "oh dang!  I didn't think about it that way!", or I may say "WTF?  That makes no sense!".  We'll see.

She is a public figure, but she's this communities momma bear/grandma.

[fra85uk]

I don't know if it's fanfiction but it is certainly no adaptation of the books.

 

Brandon Sanderson said " It’s not an adaptation of the books for me; it’s an adaptation of THE NEXT time these people experience this story."

 

[Kudzu]

32 minutes ago, fra85uk said:

I don't know if it's fanfiction but it is certainly no adaptation of the books.

 

Brandon Sanderson said " It’s not an adaptation of the books for me; it’s an adaptation of THE NEXT time these people experience this story."

 

It obviously is an adaptation of the books, or Amazon would be getting their pants sued off.

 

Your Brandon quote is taken wildly out of context. It's an in world device he's using (for himself) to explain the changes they've decided on to make the story work for TV.

[swollymammoth]

On 12/5/2021 at 10:55 AM, Sir_Charrid said:

The fact as well she has guarded the TV rights so closely suggests that she would very much have vocalised her dislike of this adaptation, or at the least remained silent instead of endorsing it and that is the main thing here.

Yeeeaaaahhh.... I'm gonna push back on this. Harriet (bless her heart) oversaw giving the rights to WoT to Red Eagle Entertainment when the books were at the height of their popularity. 

 

Consider the following quote from RJ about Red Eagle Entertainment: 

 

I hear things now and then floating out in the air. For instance, I hear that word was floating about ComicsCon in San Diego that I am displeased with Red Eagle. Too true. Too very true. In a few more months that last contract they have with anyone on God’s green earth that so much as mentions my name will come to an end and we can see what happens after that. You see, among other things they forgot an old dictum of LBJ back when he was just a Congressman from Texas, when he famously, or infamously, said “Don’t spit in the soup, boys. We all have to eat.” Worse, Red Eagle though they could tell me they spit in the soup, or pee in it, if they wanted to and there wasn’t anything I could do to stop them. You can’t apologize your way out of that with me, not that they tried. There isn’t enough money in the world to buy your way out of it with me. Not that they tried that either. So they get no further help from me. Once they are completely out of the picture, we’ll see what happens.

 

And keep in mind that this is the same company who is working with Amazon to produce this show. The Wheel of Time has been one of the most poorly managed franchises in the world (especially given its popularity) for as long as I've been a fan, and that was with both Harriet and RJ at the helm. Nothing has changed. 

[TheDreadReader]

2 hours ago, fra85uk said:

I don't know if it's fanfiction but it is certainly no adaptation of the books.

 

Brandon Sanderson said " It’s not an adaptation of the books for me; it’s an adaptation of THE NEXT time these people experience this story."

 

 

A rather selective quotation there.  If you put the rest of the context of the quote people might think that he laid out  a criteria for using the word "adaptation" in his mind.   With that criteria in mind they might be able to form their own opinion on the matter.

 

And, as others have pointed out Brandon's "another turning of the wheel" language is pretty consistent with how RJ himself described "another turning of the wheel" which falls into what normal people would just call an "adaptation."

 

 

 

 

Edited December 7, 2021 by TheDreadReader
edited to clarify

[swollymammoth]

1 hour ago, notpropaganda73 said:

I don’t like the personal nature of some of the criticisms of Rafe either but he is directly responsible for what we are seeing. Harriet isn’t. 

Absolutely. Amazon came calling with massive bags of money, and she handed over the rights. No one can blame her for that. Heck, I would have done exactly the same thing. That being said, I would be a lot more satisfied with this adaptation if it was paying for yearly vacations to Italy and unlimited cannoli for me and my family. 

[Ryrin]

2 hours ago, SinisterDeath said:

She is a public figure, but she's this communities momma bear/grandma.

This is true.

[Scarloc99]

2 hours ago, swollymammoth said:

Absolutely. Amazon came calling with massive bags of money, and she handed over the rights. No one can blame her for that. Heck, I would have done exactly the same thing. That being said, I would be a lot more satisfied with this adaptation if it was paying for yearly vacations to Italy and unlimited cannoli for me and my family. 

Amazon actually had a lot of creative control as well. They insisted on 8 hours, they insisted on the pacing insisting it is how audiences absorb TV in the streaming era, they forced Rafes hand, for instance Brandons idea that someone else be killed by Perrin he himself agrees that if you have to tell that relationship in just 2 scenes his wife makes most sense. People can connect to him killing his wife and the impact it would have without needing to get to know her. Anyone else you have to introduce the character, explain why they are important, explain why it would impact him so much. 

[swollymammoth]

5 minutes ago, Sir_Charrid said:

Amazon actually had a lot of creative control as well. They insisted on 8 hours, they insisted on the pacing insisting it is how audiences absorb TV in the streaming era, they forced Rafes hand

Yeah Amazon are a bunch of freaking scrubs. Any amount of research into their practices paints a clear picture of Amazon studios being completely run by suits who are trying to "sugar, spice, and everything nice" their way towards a successful show by just sticking to proven, data driven formulas. 

 

They can suck it, and at the very least I can credit Rafe because I think the show would probably be a lot, lot worse if he hadn't really stuck his neck out in a lot of places, most of which I doubt we'll every actually get confirmed for certain because of his legal responsibilities to the studio. 

[Scarloc99]

9 minutes ago, swollymammoth said:

Yeah Amazon are a bunch of freaking scrubs. Any amount of research into their practices paints a clear picture of Amazon studios being completely run by suits who are trying to "sugar, spice, and everything nice" their way towards a successful show by just sticking to proven, data driven formulas. 

 

They can suck it, and at the very least I can credit Rafe because I think the show would probably be a lot, lot worse if he hadn't really stuck his neck out in a lot of places, most of which I doubt we'll every actually get confirmed for certain because of his legal responsibilities to the studio. 

It is also our fault. TV is moving away from 22 episode seasons to 16 episodes with a “mid season break” to just 8-10 episodes. Apple TV has done this with all there dramas and Netflix and Disney+ have gone the same way. You get Hollywood actors signed up because it is effectively a movie schedule. 

[Scarloc99]

13 minutes ago, swollymammoth said:

Yeah Amazon are a bunch of freaking scrubs. Any amount of research into their practices paints a clear picture of Amazon studios being completely run by suits who are trying to "sugar, spice, and everything nice" their way towards a successful show by just sticking to proven, data driven formulas. 

 

They can suck it, and at the very least I can credit Rafe because I think the show would probably be a lot, lot worse if he hadn't really stuck his neck out in a lot of places, most of which I doubt we'll every actually get confirmed for certain because of his legal responsibilities to the studio. 

I also really hope the critical role animation has avoided the hand of Amazon. 

[zacz1987]

20 minutes ago, Sir_Charrid said:

It is also our fault. TV is moving away from 22 episode seasons to 16 episodes with a “mid season break” to just 8-10 episodes. Apple TV has done this with all there dramas and Netflix and Disney+ have gone the same way. You get Hollywood actors signed up because it is effectively a movie schedule. 

 

Yes this is the unfortunate reality of television at the moment. While shorter seasons allow for better special effects they significantly affect character development (amd not just in WOT). Even though older 22 episode shows often had many filler episodes which did not advance the plot, these filler episodes do help develop the characters.

[swollymammoth]

7 hours ago, Ralph said:

... because she agrees with the reasoning behind the changes and thinks RJ would probably also!! 

 

Literally could not care less. The only things which can validate an adaptation are word of god or adherence to the original. 

 

The first is impossible, so much as many people would like to think that Harriet counts. Sorry, but to paraphrase an American hero, "If she had written Wheel of Time, she would have written Wheel of Time." She is no more authoritative than Brandon Sanderson. 

 

That leaves fidelity and... well... we all know how that's turning out. 

[Kudzu]

22 minutes ago, swollymammoth said:

Literally could not care less. The only things which can validate an adaptation are word of god or adherence to the original. 

 

The first is impossible, so much as many people would like to think that Harriet counts. Sorry, but to paraphrase an American hero, "If she had written Wheel of Time, she would have written Wheel of Time." She is no more authoritative than Brandon Sanderson. 

 

That leaves fidelity and... well... we all know how that's turning out. 

 

Nothing can validate or invalidate an adaptation. It is what it is, and will be liked, or not by each individual that watches it. If RJ were alive and backed this adaptation as it is, would that make you like it?

Edited December 8, 2021 by Kudzu

[JenniferL]

I have read all of this thread and I have no idea what we are supposed to be discussing here. Is the show canon? Of course not. Rafe Judkins did not come into my house and write over the pages of my books. I have not spoken to Harriet recently,  but every time I have talked to her about the show she seemed very enthusiastic about it. She’s very firmly retired now, so I do not expect her to make any public statements either way. 
 

If it makes you feel better to think of this as some sort of fanfic, that’s cool I guess. You don’t have to watch it or even think about it if you don’t like it.