My confusion of how to feel about this whole series.

[Nors]

So I think there is a lot of love about WoT. I love the world building and the characters are well defined and, for the most part, interesting. Of course I have my favorites. 

 

I read the first 3 books about 10 years ago. I just picked up book 4. It's interesting to revisit a world now that I'm in my 30s rather than my early 20s. A lot of the things I remember not connecting with still persist. The main thing is the way the different binary gendered people think about the other gender. Mat thinks all women can't help but clean things all the time. Nynaeve loves Lan but also thinks he is dumb all the time.

 

For me, this is terribly off-putting in the sense that these social constructed beliefs about gender roles and attributes feel like caricatures rather than the way real people think of each other. 

It's obvious Jordan understands what he's doing here. In Chapter. . . 16? 17? of The Shadow Rising, Min plays up the whole helpless maiden thing while she's in Tar Valon, acting as Elmindreda. She gives Gawyn and Galad exactly what the first hates to see, and the other believes women to be. 

 

This leads me to believe Jordan creates these caricatures deliberately. My hope is that he'll also break this cycle at some point and use that breaking to develop characters.

 

Am I off base here? Has anyone else found this difficulty in reading the series?

[DojoToad]

Sometimes it got old just because there were so many characters with the same beliefs - and they all had to say it out loud.  So the repetition was bad.  But I also know people that hold many of the beliefs IRL.  So it is not unrealistic.  Whether I liked it or disliked it, I believe it helped with immersion.

[Daenelia]

It was written in a time when the book 'men are from mars, women are from venus' was every so popular, remember? I bet that is where that attitude came from. It was an easy way to define roles, even if it feels forced and unrealistic.

 

I did not mind it in the 90s, but I now see it as a quant relic from a time when people had such rigid views and thought it was funny.

[mogi68]

Our brains work by finding patterns, even where none may exist. The joke is that people have these notions about others/groups of others while being completely off base.

I think it's meant to point out the absurdity of miscommunication (and the limitations of perception) rather than being an endorsement of gender stereotypes

[ThroneofTime]

1 hour ago, mogi68 said:

Our brains work by finding patterns, even where none may exist. The joke is that people have these notions about others/groups of others while being completely off base.

I think it's meant to point out the absurdity of miscommunication (and the limitations of perception) rather than being an endorsement of gender stereotypes

Doesn’t help that 

Spoiler

A man broke the world through magic and women had to pick up the pieces. 

That skewed the gender relationships and it gets better towards the end from what I remember, I need to reread its been almost 7 years since I finished the series. 

[DaddyFinn]

I think it get's better in the later books

[Vimak_the_Great]

Given when the books were written I don’t think it’s that out of place. Plenty shows, movies, etc. used these stereotypes, for better or worse. 
 

 

[ForsakenPotato]

I think the gender caricatures are mostly in the characters heads, not RJ's, because the characters actions don't line up with the stereotypes very often. Like mentioned previously with Nyneave thinking Lan is dumb all the time: Lan isn't actually dumb, Nyneave just thinks anyone who doesn't agree with her is dumb. If they are a man she'll blame it on their gender. If they are Elayne, she'll blame it on her being a princess. If it's Egwene she'll decide she's too young and immature. Etc.

 

All the characters just look for easy explanations when another character does something they don't agree with or understand, and gender happens to be an easy scapegoat. That's human nature to some degree, but I also think it's overdone and exaggerated in the books, which I do find distracting/annoying while reading. Like "women are more difficult than trollocs" is probably not a real quote because I just made it up, but also it could be real and I wouldn't be surprised. Sometimes those lines make sense for a particular character given their attitude or experiences or culture, but the fact that almost every POV character thinks in those ways is mostly unhelpful in my opinion.

[Kalessin]

Actually, Gaul in The Shadow Rising, Chapter 42, A Missing Leaf, makes the comment about Chiad and Bain after Perrin asks if he's had an enjoyable night playing Maiden's Kiss with them: "A Myrddraal has less cunning than a woman, and a Trolloc fights with more honor." Before adding, "And a goat has more sense."

 

But then, that comes as a culmination of a series of taunts they have thrown his way, and Chiad and Bain's support of Faile's behaviour towards Perrin, which they seem to regard in the same light, as a series of taunts intended to force him to take notice of her.

[muddasssir]

I think one of the comments hit it on the head absolutely perfectly. We get all of these comments in POVs,. Come to think of it have you never said; men or women in exasperation in your head! about a colleague, friend or your significant other? It was not his aspersions on genders rather his take on frivolity of human thought process. we tend to type cast people based on our biases. He just threw it in our face and we cringe because we do not want to face that. We do not want to accept that we are in the end just humans with our biases and short comings.

 

[qlorin]

On 12/1/2021 at 7:29 PM, Nors said:

The main thing is the way the different binary gendered people think about the other gender.

Beacuse most of the POV charecters we follow are uneducated teen farmersor peasents. Boys are 19 years old. Egwene Elayne 16... Nynave 25?... More aged or educated charecters have better understanding in this matter.

Even in our society with access to every information there are some people who still thinks like our characters. We took so much for granted now. If you think about this %90 of the population mustnt have the ability to read or write in this story. There is no education system. Expecting they have modern understanding of gender roles is too much. What you say as caricatures were accapted by society 200 years ago. There are still parts of the world believes these gender roles. 

[Katherine]

On 12/2/2021 at 10:23 AM, mogi68 said:

Our brains work by finding patterns, even where none may exist. The joke is that people have these notions about others/groups of others while being completely off base.

I think it's meant to point out the absurdity of miscommunication (and the limitations of perception) rather than being an endorsement of gender stereotypes

This is well said. 

 

RJ's women (and men) broke so many sterotypes, while constantly misunderstanding the other gender. That is why I always liked the Aiel so much. I felt like their sense of honor crossed genders and allowed them to deeply respect one another (though their sense of humor made that difficult to see sometimes). 

[Spiritweaver1]

I felt these books were like a breath of fresh air in the genre.  Instead of victim or wicked witch there were a range of women with complex motives,  power and reasonable plausible personalities.  I have no idea what it is really like to be the opposite gender and neither did RJ.  I like to think Harriet helped him a bit and I can appreciate that his portrayal of women was not as perhaps as nuanced as if he had been a woman however it is a lot better than RJ did in Conan the Barbarian.   We are all evolving. 

 

At the end of the day it is about the hero's journey to face evil whether it is internal or external and there are many women on that journey to becoming in these books.  

[UOweTamASword]

Some have mentioned how gender views were 30 years ago when RJ started the series. But that's not really relevant to compare to Randland, a feudalistic society more comparable to several centuries ago.

 

Then throw on top of that the gendered schism in magic and I find it a bit bizarre people think they have any idea what gender stereotypes people would have and how prevalent they would be in Randland. Comparing modern gender norms to Randland seems like something you'd do for fun, but just a little thought should tell you how pointless it would be to discuss it seriously or cast aspersions on RJ's writing.

 

Just ask yourself: Would you complain if a series had zero gender norms/stereotypes (not realistic to our world either) but justified it in its world-building? If not, you're probably just trying to force your own biases of how you wish Randland would be in regards to gender, rather than how it really is and probably should be.

[Nors]

Hey! Thanks everyone, for all your thoughts. It's interesting. When I was younger, I had a difficult time with these matters because the writing didn't ring true to me. It felt forced. The verisimilitude was broken. There are still times when this happens now. I'm 25 chapters into book 4, and every once in a while I cringe because the narrative doesn't feel true to me. Like caricatures.

 

That being said, I've started to look at the story differently. I've begun to see these moments as pieces of growth within the characters. They are working through social and gender norms and while I find the writing a bit hokey at times, it doesn't negate the fact that there are obvious moments of clarity where these characters see each other for what they really are rather than through social norms.

 

I totally agree that RJ is using these moments as a device to point out how fruitless gender norms are in our society. There's a bunch of great points here. At this point I'm just glad to be enjoying these books (and the show), as it really helps me think back on when I was a kid and discovering fantastical worlds for the first time.

N.

[F Horn of Valere]

I look at it a bit differently than the above thoughts.

 

in WoT, the Aes Sedai have been the ultimate authority for millennia, resulting in  different gender dynamics than we, the reader, can really relate. This extends past the White Tower—Andoran politics, Ebou Dar home life, etc…

 

it is easy for our ethnocentrism to read the characters through our own cultural lens, but they just have a different cultural understanding. This is less about the narrator’s reliability as it is the reader’s. 

[EmreY]

I don't like how arrogant people are in general, with the gender war being one, major example.  There are exceptions, but loads more people seem to be trying to put people down than I've met in real life, and I've not been cosseted.  Some of it may perhaps be explained away by people trying to get a rise out of others or manipulate them in some way, but when Rand tells Cadsuane towards the end to call him, if she wishes, Rand Sedai, I thought: Finally!

[Pembie]

I’m on winters heart now and I was surprised and confused over Eyane  and Adventist being half sisters or lesbian I had no ideaEyane was so that come out of nowhere for me 

 

There seems to be a few plots that just seem to pop up without any leads also I think Robert Jordon didn’t know what to do with a lot of his characters Perrain Lolia Thom Ian which is quite disappointing 

 

[Andra]

48 minutes ago, Pembie said:

I’m on winters heart now and I was surprised and confused over Eyane  and Adventist being half sisters or lesbian I had no ideaEyane was so that come out of nowhere for me 

 

There seems to be a few plots that just seem to pop up without any leads also I think Robert Jordon didn’t know what to do with a lot of his characters Perrain Lolia Thom Ian which is quite disappointing 

 

It's not that Elayne and Aviendha are lesbians, it's that they've decided that if they have to share Rand, they need to do it the way the Aiel do - as adopted first sisters.  It's not out of the blue, but actually based deeply in Aiel culture.

 

In some cases, such a relationship would start with the women (whether romantic or not) then add the man.  Like Bain and Chiad might eventually add Gaul.  In others, it starts with one man and one woman, then add the other woman. 

Spoiler

Like with Bael and Dorindha marrying Melaine.

 

[Pembie]

15 hours ago, Andra said:

It's not that Elayne and Aviendha are lesbians, it's that they've decided that if they have to share Rand, they need to do it the way the Aiel do - as adopted first sisters.  It's not out of the blue, but actually based deeply in Aiel culture.

 

In some cases, such a relationship would start with the women (whether romantic or not) then add the man.  Like Bain and Chiad might eventually add Gaul.  In others, it starts with one man and one woman, then add the other woman. 

  Reveal hidden contents

Like with Bael and Dorindha marrying Melaine.

 

Thanks I seem to get more confused as the books go on Login is finally back and Edith has sent additional sedi to kill men who channel I think that is what is happening not a easy series to follow I don’t think 

[Andra]

1 hour ago, Pembie said:

Thanks I seem to get more confused as the books go on Login is finally back and Edith has sent additional sedi to kill men who channel I think that is what is happening not a easy series to follow I don’t think 

I've had friends who got in the weeds with the series the way you seem to have.

What's worked for them is to go back over the books prior to where you are.  Skimming can help, but actually re-reading back from the beginning is best.

 

It may seem like a lot of work, but once you get confused, it may be impossible to ever get back on track.

[VooDooNut]

4 minutes ago, Andra said:

I've had friends who got in the weeds with the series the way you seem to have.

What's worked for them is to go back over the books prior to where you are.  Skimming can help, but actually re-reading back from the beginning is best.

 

It may seem like a lot of work, but once you get confused, it may be impossible to ever get back on track.

Yes, this. Re-reads are paramount to my understanding of WOT. You just invariably miss things the first (second, third, fourth...) time around. I'm on my second full re-read now and it's like I'm reading the books for the first time.

[Jillain Sanche]

I began rereading the entire series (kind of for the 4th time) last summer, one after the other for continuity. I was moving, and WOT helped my moving and covid-era stress. ?

 

I just wrapped book 7, and I can say my original impressions of some of the young principal characters is a bit different this time around (like jeez, Nynaeve is such a bully! Get over yourself!). 

 

One thing to note, every one of the prime characters (not including Black Ajah nor the Forsaken) is on their own unique learning curve, and the author meant for us to be sometimes frustrated with their takes on each other and others. 

 

 

[Pembie]

I don’t think I will re read the series I just don’t find that good to even think of doing that 

I will carry on at moment I’m liking the start of winter’s heart with Perrin and Failes stories 

I don’t like the way characters seem to be forgotten about for books though 

[VooDooNut]

8 minutes ago, Pembie said:

I don’t think I will re read the series I just don’t find that good to even think of doing that 

I will carry on at moment I’m liking the start of winter’s heart with Perrin and Failes stories 

I don’t like the way characters seem to be forgotten about for books though 

Yeah, to your last point I'm at the end of Path Of Daggers re-read at the moment and really missing Moiraine in the story. I'm planning to dip back to New Spring before I start Winter's Heart.