Accepting the Adaptation

[CaddySedai]

Though we all are hoping for at least one Blood and Ashes. 

 

I am certain we will get at least one at some point. ?

[ArrylT]

2 hours ago, CaddySedai said:

Though we all are hoping for at least one Blood and Ashes. 

 

I am certain we will get at least one at some point. ?

 

I thought I already heard a Blood & Ashes but might have been mistaken - but yeah Rafe pretty much promised us Uno would be Uno so probably swear overload.    If they kept a swear jar in Fal Dara he'd probably pay for all the roads to be re-paved. ?

[CaddySedai]

3 minutes ago, ArrylT said:

 

I thought I already heard a Blood & Ashes but might have been mistaken - but yeah Rafe pretty much promised us Uno would be Uno so probably swear overload.    If they kept a swear jar in Fal Dara he'd probably pay for all the roads to be re-paved. ?

I thought that was canon already.

[Daenelia]

@king of nowhere ? I do actually say bloody all the time, and when I am reading WoT books, I definitely am swearing with an extra dash of bloody ashes. I am that easily influenced ?

 

But I do get what you are saying, that in other languages that swear word does not work. I would never say it in Dutch and I should look up what the Dutch translater made of it. It is very different swearing in Dutch, or even Italian (I know very few Italian swear words, but they always sound poetic to my ear ? )

 

Most shows I watch have their own selection of words, mainly due to censoring. I mean: Frack (or Frak) in Battlestar Galactica was specifically made up because the could not use the F-word on tv. It is a little flavor.

 

And I would really like to see that flavour in the series. It's not a deal breaker though ?

[RhienneAgain]

11 hours ago, Harad the White said:

Many non-book readers seem to like that in particular, as did I. You are welcome to your opinion of course, and if those words were not in the Book you are correct that it had not "been used by the book characters." It was perfect for the characters on film, imho, maybe because good dialog heard out loud, is often necessarily different than dialog read from the page. Another example, I liked was Lan's "She's not a companion. She's barely company." Was that in the Book?

I think you've misunderstood the point I was trying to make (or I've not explained it well). I don't have any issue with introducing new dialogue or even entirely new plots (e.g. pretty much all of the Logain material so far is completely new and has zero basis at all in the books but I am absolutely loving it).

 

The difference in my reaction is due to the fact that I feel book Logain and TV Logain are the same character. The show writers have understood Logain's character in such a way that when they show him in scenes or conversations that aren't in the book there's no dissonance as the way Logain behaves on screen feels exactly how the book character would respond to those new scened and dialogue.

 

In contrast (in my opinion), the show adaption fares worse for a book fan when the characters on screen don't feel recognisable as the characters from the book, i.e. when they say and do things that the book characters wouldn't. Hence my reaction the Lan and Nynaeve scene. I actually think it's good the show writers are putting more focus on developing their relationship and for that they obviously need to create new dialogue but to me that dialogue should feel like it's something the book characters could say, and in this case, it feels like something they categorically wouldn't say.

[Yojimbo]

7 hours ago, ArrylT said:

 

I thought I already heard a Blood & Ashes but might have been mistaken - but yeah Rafe pretty much promised us Uno would be Uno so probably swear overload.    If they kept a swear jar in Fal Dara he'd probably pay for all the roads to be re-paved. ?

 I always thought Uno must have moved to Sheinar from Boston.  

[AdamA]

There's always a risk of sounding silly with some of this stuff. Everyone saying "frak" all the time in Battlestar wasn't an artistic choice. They were censored from using real swear words because SyFy was basic cable. I found it distracting and stupid for a long time, personally. On the other hand, you don't want to use contemporary idioms and phrasing unless you're specifically leaning into anachronisms as your thing a la Apple TV's "Dickinson."

[Skipp]

I am a huge fan of BSG and Farscape.  Both used a word to get around censors when using the word f#ck, Frak and Frell respectively.  The thing about those words is that they are easily understood as a replacement for f#ck.  While the basic swears in WoT; Blood and Ashes, Burn Me, Flaming and Blasted would work fairly well when heard by an English speaking audience I have a tough time imagining those translating very well.

 

Taken to the extreme example can you imagine the general audience reaction to "Oh sheep swallop! Sheep swallop and bloody buttered onions!"

[Daenelia]

46 minutes ago, AdamA said:

There's always a risk of sounding silly with some of this stuff. Everyone saying "frak" all the time in Battlestar wasn't an artistic choice. They were censored from using real swear words because SyFy was basic cable. I found it distracting and stupid for a long time, personally. On the other hand, you don't want to use contemporary idioms and phrasing unless you're specifically leaning into anachronisms as your thing a la Apple TV's "Dickinson."

Was the original (BSG) on SyFy as well, in 1978-79?

Edited December 2, 2021 by Daenelia

[Daenelia]

2 minutes ago, Skipp said:

I am a huge fan of BSG and Farscape.  Both used a word to get around censors when using the word f#ck, Frak and Frell respectively.  The thing about those words is that they are easily understood as a replacement for f#ck.  While the basic swears in WoT; Blood and Ashes, Burn Me, Flaming and Blasted would work fairly well when heard by an English speaking audience I have a tough time imagining those translating very well.

 

Taken to the extreme example can you imagine the general audience reaction to "Oh sheep swallop! Sheep swallop and bloody buttered onions!"

Oh man, I always have to censor myself in England ? You'd think the English know how to swear and understand it. But 'shit' is such a common word in Dutch (yes: as the English word, rarely as the Dutch word, which is 'poep'.) that I get very strange and upset looks when I swear in public!

 

I think an English speaking audience knows full well how to react to WoT swear words, tbh. Even my dog understands swear words in different languages, and that all has to do with ... delivery. Potverdriedikkeme.

[bringbackthomsmoustache]

27 minutes ago, Daenelia said:

Oh man, I always have to censor myself in England ? You'd think the English know how to swear and understand it. But 'shit' is such a common word in Dutch (yes: as the English word, rarely as the Dutch word, which is 'poep'.) that I get very strange and upset looks when I swear in public!

I think you underestimate the levels of profanity we English (which is not synonymous with British in general - I do not have licence to comment on how sweary other parts of the UK are) employ in regular interactions.

However speaking of sci-fi shows with their own key swearword I prefer Red Dwarf, particularly Kryten overcoming his programming to end an episode with the line "In which case, Mr Rimmer sir, I would just like to point out that you are the most obnoxious, trumped up, farty little smeghead that it is has ever been my misfortune to encounter".

[AdamA]

1 hour ago, Daenelia said:

Was the original (BSG) on SyFy as well, in 1978-79?

I didn't even know the same language was in the original, which aired on ABC, but it is still subject to the same considerations. Network television and basic cable alike are subject to the US FCC's list of banned swear words they're not allowed to use (radio as well) in order to use US air waves.

[TheDreadReader]

1 hour ago, Daenelia said:

Was the original (BSG) on SyFy as well, in 1978-79?

 

The SyFy network was started in 1989 I think.  The original series aired on the ABC broadcast network.   A lot of local non-cable non-network uhf stations used to run it as weekend marathons throughout the 80s in the states.

 

I found the "frak" to be rather silly in the BSG reboot.  It reminded me of when they badly dubbed fake swears in R rated movies edited for television broadcast.  Using in-world swears from the books makes more sense to me because you can see how they would be swears within the world and not just replacing one word with another like "frak" did.  

 

But, on the whole, I don't really mind using current swear words in the show.  

[Daenelia]

1 hour ago, bringbackthomsmoustache said:

I think you underestimate the levels of profanity we English (which is not synonymous with British in general - I do not have licence to comment on how sweary other parts of the UK are) employ in regular interactions.

However speaking of sci-fi shows with their own key swearword I prefer Red Dwarf, particularly Kryten overcoming his programming to end an episode with the line "In which case, Mr Rimmer sir, I would just like to point out that you are the most obnoxious, trumped up, farty little smeghead that it is has ever been my misfortune to encounter".

Smeg is the best fake swear word ever, that I think transitioned into an actual swear word as far as I am concerned. It was one oif the reasons I wanted some Smeg kitchen appliances. Which were very good! We had an excellent Smeg oven!

 

@AdamA & @TheDreadReader I already pointed out that frak/frack was originally used in BSG original (1978-79) as a subsitute because real swearwords were not allowed.

[Elder_Haman]

12 minutes ago, TheDreadReader said:

 

The SyFy network was started in 1989 I think.  The original series aired on the ABC broadcast network.   A lot of local non-cable non-network uhf stations used to run it as weekend marathons throughout the 80s in the states.

 

I found the "frak" to be rather silly in the BSG reboot.  It reminded me of when they badly dubbed fake swears in R rated movies edited for television broadcast.  Using in-world swears from the books makes more sense to me because you can see how they would be swears within the world and not just replacing one word with another like "frak" did.  

 

But, on the whole, I don't really mind using current swear words in the show.  

I've found the cursing to be ... appropriate. It's sort of hard to put into words, but the curses they are using have the same general tone as the book ones. They didn't escalate "bloody" or "blood and bloody ashes" into f-bombs. And they haven't been using a lot of super modern vernacular.

 

Curious to see where it goes, since we've been promised that Uno will be swearing up a storm.

[ex WOT fan]

Please Everyone stop watching this travesty now.  It is impossible for me to express the amount of disappointment I have in this piece of ****.  The longer it goes the less chance there is that it will ever be done again, by someone who has actually read the books.  I am sure RJ is rolling over in his grave as this "adaption" is airing.   Matt a thief, his mom a drunk, his dad a philander, Perrin married, no Luhans, Rand and Egwene have been having sex, No fever dream revelation, Thom playing a guitar, Moraine wounded and the list goes on and on.  There is no Elayas and no Doman apparently.  This abomination needs to end now.   I watched the first three and I am done.  I am most of the way through the audiobook of the Eye of the World again.   I am hoping this show will die a quick death.   Anybody who actually appreciated the books, and didn't secretly want to change them to some updated junk, should hate this thing as well.  I didn't expect much, but I was surprised that it was so much worse than I had anticipated.  Again, I am done.  STOP WATCHING IT OR WE ARE DOOMED!

[Skipp]

11 minutes ago, ex WOT fan said:

Please Everyone stop watching this travesty now.  It is impossible for me to express the amount of disappointment I have in this piece of ****.  The longer it goes the less chance there is that it will ever be done again, by someone who has actually read the books.  I am sure RJ is rolling over in his grave as this "adaption" is airing.   Matt a thief, his mom a drunk, his dad a philander, Perrin married, no Luhans, Rand and Egwene have been having sex, No fever dream revelation, Thom playing a guitar, Moraine wounded and the list goes on and on.  There is no Elayas and no Doman apparently.  This abomination needs to end now.   I watched the first three and I am done.  I am most of the way through the audiobook of the Eye of the World again.   I am hoping this show will die a quick death.   Anybody who actually appreciated the books, and didn't secretly want to change them to some updated junk, should hate this thing as well.  I didn't expect much, but I was surprised that it was so much worse than I had anticipated.  Again, I am done.  STOP WATCHING IT OR WE ARE DOOMED!

It is unfortunately that the show isn't entertaining you the way you wanted.  Hopefully that will change but it doesn't we hope you stick around for discussion on the show and its changes.  There are several posters who are sticking around who don't care for the show just to be able to discuss it.

 

There are aspects that you have mentioned that will actually be in the show.  Elyas is going to be in season 2 but it is rumored he will be merged with another character.  The Rand/Tam fever dream was filmed and will likely be shown as a flashback before the end of the season.

 

As for several of other changes, such as Mats parents and Perrins wife, these were included to fleshout characters movitations or jumpstart their arcs.  The showrunners do have a limited budget and season length so they have to make cuts and take shortcuts to fit some of these details into the show.  As with any book to screen adaptation things have to change more to a show don't tell method.

 

 

[Skipp]

And there are others on this forum who are much more articulate than I am that will happily discuss why these changes made for the adaption.  But if you just want to rant this show and not further discussion then this may not be the best place for that.

[Scarloc99]

On 11/21/2021 at 6:34 PM, JaimAybara said:

I feel like the early 2000’s and the contemporary Dune did pretty faithful adaptations with an equally sprawling book. So, I’m not certain “images in our head” should necessarily be a stand in or replacement for, “what was on the page.”( I’m speaking of plot only, I don’t have casting issues like the article also discussed.) I just see a potential cascade effect for those little things, like the heron not being on the hilt…

  Hide contents

that’s literally one of the prophesy confirming plot points in book two

, to the big things like Laila being his wife, which was a complete fabrication and only complicates the plot further, doesn’t streamline it.  

 

Don’t get me wrong there are definitely things that should be condensed, and maybe things that should be removed, but some of the alterations they have made to me is honestly more representative of what, “someone had in their head.” 
 

Nevertheless, I hope it works and I’m still enjoying it immensely. I just don’t think it’s necessarily that the complaints are unfounded or “head canon” issues. I think it’s mainly actual deviation from canon that they are upset about and I can empathize.  

Ok something like the heron much like the jewel in the dagger I imagine variations of the prop where made and tried and that is the one that worked best on camera. Maybe in others the heron wasn’t obvious, or was shielded, or required a silly action to show. 
 

There are practical things that stop a scene being filmed the way it is in a book, and, there are plenty of reasons it shouldn’t be. Harry Potter is a great example, films 1 and 2 stick really close to the books, and are poorer for it. It is only from film 3 when the writers start using the source material as inspiration but tweak the story to work in the visual medium that the films go from being ok kids films to really good film making. 

[Scarloc99]

On 11/21/2021 at 8:31 PM, Ryrin said:

I don’t think it helps either.

I think it is perfect for the story of Perrin, at least him killing someone he knows in that first fight. My wife who has never read the books said the moment he did it, he won’t ever want to draw his axe again. In a limited run time Rafe managed in one scene to define perrins entire decision tree moving forward based on this one act, instead of having to spend time getting him there slowly, time the series does not have, as he does in the books. 

[Skipp]

1 minute ago, Sir_Charrid said:

I think it is perfect for the story of Perrin, at least him killing someone he knows in that first fight. My wife who has never read the books said the moment he did it, he won’t ever want to draw his axe again. In a limited run time Rafe managed in one scene to define perrins entire decision tree moving forward based on this one act, instead of having to spend time getting him there slowly, time the series does not have, as he does in the books. 

Aside from that fact that fridging is such an over used trope it is really surprising to listen to nonbook readers discuss this scene.  So many have said what you have quoted and I have heard some speculate accurately about Perrin's arc.  So it was certainly effective to a portion of the audience.

[Scarloc99]

On 11/21/2021 at 9:53 PM, nicki_minajah said:

 

 

BRB just saving all of these posts as evidence for my students that what I teach them (writing & rhetoric) matters beyond my classroom. ?

 

For real, though, I'm glad that others seem to get it. I really don't think anyone is being condescending on purpose. Early in the adaptation process, a narrative sparked: "People who have problems with the show don't understand adaptation/are too committed to authenticity." That narrative circulated so widely that its characters--staunch authenticity-driven/remediation-ignorant critics--seemed to become real for people. But, like, that group isn't real. And when any authenticity-related critique is met with such a condescending response... Like, who would want to keep talking after that? Much less be persuaded by an argument?

 

I'd also like to point out that authenticity is on a gradient scale. So folks who decry "Well you can't expect it to be exactly like the book"... They're watching the show in hopes of some level of authenticity, too. We all have a limit in terms of what amount of change we'll appreciate. To extend @Harad the White's metaphor: Some of us would prefer the raven to be a raven, while others may be content with a falcon. Or maybe a sparrow. Or may even another animal. But show me the person who appreciates the raven becoming a writing desk.

 

*Edited for a typo!

I am intrested as a teacher what you think of the statement the author is dead, the idea that the moment a writer puts something out to the world what they intended it to mean doesn’t matter. I used to write songs and, the moment a song of mine was out there I refused to ever tell anyone what I meant from the lyrics because my opinion no longer mattered, I was dead, it was up to the listener and reader to see what they got out of it, if it was the same as I had when I wrote it, great, but if it was different I wasn’t going to correct someone. 
 

To my mind we all interpret aspects of the WOT differently, it just so happens one of us was given permission to make a TV show out of our interpretation and so has interpreted it they way they feel best works to get it onto the screen and tell that story. We as other readers should consider that any one of us may well be finding ourselves lambasted in the same way for decisions we made. 

Edited December 2, 2021 by Sir_Charrid

[Scarloc99]

2 minutes ago, Skipp said:

Aside from that fact that fridging is such an over used trope it is really surprising to listen to nonbook readers discuss this scene.  So many have said what you have quoted and I have heard some speculate accurately about Perrin's arc.  So it was certainly effective to a portion of the audience.

I wish it hadn’t been his wife, but I think it gets to the heart of something we all choose to ignore, in TV now days there is no time allowed to breathe and slow burn a story. Rafe has 64 hours, if the rumors are correct, to tell a story that word per minute if screen time Lord of the Rings, Harry Potter, the Witcher and Game of a thrones had far more time to tell for the total amount of book brought to screen. I might do the stats this week and post about it. 

[Skipp]

11 minutes ago, Sir_Charrid said:

I wish it hadn’t been his wife, but I think it gets to the heart of something we all choose to ignore, in TV now days there is no time allowed to breathe and slow burn a story. Rafe has 64 hours, if the rumors are correct, to tell a story that word per minute if screen time Lord of the Rings, Harry Potter, the Witcher and Game of a thrones had far more time to tell for the total amount of book brought to screen. I might do the stats this week and post about it. 

And that is exactly it.  Sanderson has told us that he wasn't a fan of the Laila fridging. He had suggested it be Master/Mistress Luhan that Perrin accidently killed instead of a wife. Rafe justified his position, and correctly so considering the amount of screen time Laila was given, that the audience would more quickly understand what Perrin is going through if the relationship that was fridged was his wife rather than his mentor.

 

Here is hoping that Amazon is willing to budge on their 8 episodes only limit.  Would love to see 10 episodes a season starting in season 3.

Edited December 2, 2021 by Skipp
Additional thought

[Spiritweaver1]

Well I spent  yesterday bingeing the first 5 episodes.  It provided me  a couple perspective on this topic which I will share and then I will say no more on it.  One of my hobbies is crystal hunting.  This hobby means a lot of off trail bushwhacking through wilderness.  i learned a long time ago that small course/navigation errors meant a large error  between the intended destination and the actual destination.    I fear our plucky show runner and his band of creatives are off course and may find themselves in the blight with no hope of the green man to save them. 

 

What I realized from the binge is how far from the actual storyline they have wandered.  E4 and E5 are nearly entire fabrications   There was a small thing that really made me realize they were losing their way.  That was when Moraine says " May the last embrace of the mother welcome you home" at the funeral  She is not a borderlander.   Of course the whole thing is not in the book.   However, what makes WOT great and  the  leading competition to LOTR is RJ's world building which includes the cultures and dialects of the many nations. He builds strong characters with real personalities. He describes clothing and customs in fine detail.   When you make stuff up you lose the old dialog and have to make up new.  So far that is not particularly strong although there are enough strong moments that make me think that there is hope.

 

I was also taken aback by Tar Valon.  I can appreciate and perhaps even support writing Caemlyn out of the story to save the money it would have taken to develop CGI for two of the great cities of Randland. I would have assumed the money saved would have been plowed back into Tar Valon.  It clearly wasn't.  I will have more to say on this topic in the appropriate thread.  For our purposes here I will say that the visual world building isn't going well either.

 

On the positive side the character development is fairly strong and they seem to be doing a decent job pacing the show.  I very much enjoyed my streaming Saturday and will do it again when the season is complete.   It will be interesting to see what they do with Moraine.  As we know she disappears fairly early in the story.  

 

To wrap this up I am sensing that the show is not heading for greatness.  They apparently don't yet understand what makes the story special for so many of us.   It is not too late for the writing team and the visual effects team to get it together and get  back on course.    The ultimate goal is to tell the story of the Dragon Reborn's battle to save the multiverse (did you forget that part??)  from the Dark One in Randland and make the world and characters real for existing and new fans.  So for me the show is good but headed for average.   I hope somebody in charge of this site will send this entire thread to Rafe or one of his peeps.