Accepting the Adaptation

[Elder_Haman]

I will go back - once more - to The Last Kingdom. It is very, very different from the books. There are massive changes to characters, huge swaths of plot abandoned, events moved and combined, characters invented out of whole cloth. 

 

But it's still an amazing adaptation of the material. Character changes allow the show to bring out subtext and concepts that exist within the main character's head. [The books are from Uhtred's first person POV] They give context to the actions of other characters that viewers need. They explore relationships that are hinted at, but never seen on the page. 

 

Fidelity to the text is not the be all, end all. It's not a particularly important metric for judging whether a show is of good quality. At the end of the day, I want to look at this show and feel like they told the story of the Dragon and his companions in a way that is entertaining and that follows that major beats of the story I read.

 

So far, they have succeeded in entertaining me. 

[DojoToad]

2 minutes ago, AshennaSedai said:

 

Yep, I just thought it best to point out that these paint very different pictures. For me, when something adapts a favorite series of mine, I want it to be "in the spirit" but it doesn't need to be a page by page adaptation to make me happy.

 

Other readers want that page by page adaptation. They're both very valid wants.

 

I like looking at the big picture. You also have the idea of the fact that if you're looking at public forums and social media, sometimes the negative voices seem louder because they're actually talking about it whereas people who have a favorable opinion do not always voice as such.

Different pictures for sure.

 

I don't need (and would never expect) a page for page adaptation.  I have a problem with the phrasing from Rafe, Brandon, and others that this is a different turning of the wheel.  It is an adaptation.  They are using 'turning' as cover from negative feedback.

 

Rafe is making the show the way he wants within budgetary and Amazon constraints.  Suck it up, take responsibility for the show you made - realizing that there will be criticism and praise (and there has been praise as well).  He's been in the business long enough to know you can't please everyone.

 

If the concerns and criticism are valid - make changes where you can, or tell people to pound sand and just suck in all the adulation.  He's got the power, he makes the calls.  Just don't hide behind 'turning'.

[DojoToad]

3 minutes ago, Elder_Haman said:

I will go back - once more - to The Last Kingdom. It is very, very different from the books. There are massive changes to characters, huge swaths of plot abandoned, events moved and combined, characters invented out of whole cloth. 

 

But it's still an amazing adaptation of the material. Character changes allow the show to bring out subtext and concepts that exist within the main character's head. [The books are from Uhtred's first person POV] They give context to the actions of other characters that viewers need. They explore relationships that are hinted at, but never seen on the page. 

 

Fidelity to the text is not the be all, end all. It's not a particularly important metric for judging whether a show is of good quality. At the end of the day, I want to look at this show and feel like they told the story of the Dragon and his companions in a way that is entertaining and that follows that major beats of the story I read.

 

So far, they have succeeded in entertaining me. 

Good example.  I'm trying to get there which is why I engage in these conversations - not to be negative, believe it or not.  Thanks for being patient.

[AshennaSedai]

4 minutes ago, DojoToad said:

Different pictures for sure.

 

I don't need (and would never expect) a page for page adaptation.  I have a problem with the phrasing from Rafe, Brandon, and others that this is a different turning of the wheel.  It is an adaptation.  They are using 'turning' as cover from negative feedback.

 

Rafe is making the show the way he wants within budgetary and Amazon constraints.  Suck it up, take responsibility for the show you made - realizing that there will be criticism and praise (and there has been praise as well).  He's been in the business long enough to know you can't please everyone.

 

If the concerns and criticism are valid - make changes where you can, or tell people to pound sand and just suck in all the adulation.  He's got the power, he makes the calls.  Just don't hide behind 'turning'.

 

Okay I can see that now and yeah I do think that showrunners in general need to figure out how to weed out the good and the bad and adapt. That's what makes a good showrunner IMO. I have to admit, I'm not even sure if I've seen anything else that Rafe has done to know whether or not I already like things he's put out.

[Elder_Haman]

4 minutes ago, DojoToad said:

He's got the power, he makes the calls.  Just don't hide behind 'turning'.

I don't think this is what is happening with the "another turning" language. It's been sort of bastardized as time has passed. The "think of it as another turning of the Wheel" originated in Brandon's response to a question about the show.

 

He started thinking of the show as "another turning" as a psychological tool for getting himself used to some of the changes that were being made. He didn't specifically say this show was a different turning, or try to run away from the changes at all. No one is hiding behind it.

[DojoToad]

16 minutes ago, Elder_Haman said:

I don't think this is what is happening with the "another turning" language. It's been sort of bastardized as time has passed. The "think of it as another turning of the Wheel" originated in Brandon's response to a question about the show.

 

He started thinking of the show as "another turning" as a psychological tool for getting himself used to some of the changes that were being made. He didn't specifically say this show was a different turning, or try to run away from the changes at all. No one is hiding behind it.

Hiding might not be the correct term: hiding, covering, spinning...

 

But again, just a grumpy old man's opinion.

Edited November 23, 2021 by DojoToad

[Deadsy]

3 hours ago, DojoToad said:

If the concerns and criticism are valid - make changes where you can, or tell people to pound sand and just suck in all the adulation.  He's got the power, he makes the calls.  Just don't hide behind 'turning'.

 

 

I only ever saw that Brandon had called it that. Brandon is a fan. Did Rafe say it too?

Edited November 23, 2021 by Deadsy

[Deadsy]

A couple more things to add to the list of what I'm getting sick of.

• People crying about RJ's legacy, saying things like he's rolling in his grave, or they're glad he doesn't have to see this. It's frankly disgusting.
• People who think they speak for the fan base saying no true fan could accept the changes.
• People putting Sanderson up on a god-like pedestal. Brandon is a Wheel of Time fan who is very good at writing and did a very good job of completing the series. But he is still a fan and he made mistakes. Brandon's comments shouldn't be use to defend every argument one has about what they don't like about the show. And on a related note, I felt Brandon messed up Mat in several scenes but I didn't go apepoop about it. His opinion is important and I'm glad he's there and they are asking his opinion, but he's not always right.

Edited November 23, 2021 by Deadsy

[KakitaOCU]

On 11/21/2021 at 8:23 PM, Ellyll said:

Perrin murdering his non existent wife isn't supposed to help, it's supposed to replace actual character development with an easy to manufacture trope.

But it's not replacing actual character development.

It's having the same impact on him that in the books happens when he, Egwene and a Certain new friend coming get attacked.

Instead of worrying over his fury and violence because he justifiably killed someone in defense it's now that he accidentally killed someone he cares for.

It also adds more weight to WHY he behaves in certain ways in a Certain future plotline.

[ArrylT]

On 11/22/2021 at 10:18 PM, ArrylT said:

 

On IMDB atm it is pretty favorable - over 70% of voters have given at least a 6/10 for Ep1 with an overall rating of 7.6 (that has slowly been climbing as it was below 7 a day or so ago).

 

Episode 2 has a 91% percentage of people who voted 6 or higher. Its overall rating is currently 8.2

 

Episode 3 has a 91% percentage of people who voted 6 or higher.  Its overall rating is currently 8.1

 

 

Brief update on IMDB rating

 

Episode 1 grade remains 7.6 but the percentage of people grading 6 or higher has increased from 70% to 86% - so basically getting a lot more 6-8 ratings these past few days (and there has been about 1000 new ratings since last night).

 

For the show itself overall the % of 1/10s has dropped from about 12% to 8%, and 77.8% have rated it 7 or higher.   

[Deadsy]

10 hours ago, Elder_Haman said:

I will go back - once more - to The Last Kingdom. It is very, very different from the books. There are massive changes to characters, huge swaths of plot abandoned, events moved and combined, characters invented out of whole cloth. 

 

But it's still an amazing adaptation of the material. Character changes allow the show to bring out subtext and concepts that exist within the main character's head. [The books are from Uhtred's first person POV] They give context to the actions of other characters that viewers need. They explore relationships that are hinted at, but never seen on the page. 

 

Fidelity to the text is not the be all, end all. It's not a particularly important metric for judging whether a show is of good quality. At the end of the day, I want to look at this show and feel like they told the story of the Dragon and his companions in a way that is entertaining and that follows that major beats of the story I read.

 

So far, they have succeeded in entertaining me. 

 

 

Nice post.

 

Moiraine is my favorite character. When you condense the books down to just her screen time, there really isn't a whole lot of material there. She is just very interesting and memorable while she is there. So I am actually excited to see her do DIFFERENT things than she did in the books, as long as the character still feels like Moiraine.

Edited November 24, 2021 by Deadsy

[Kudzu]

13 hours ago, ArrylT said:

Apologies in advance for this ramble.

 

Like most I was aware of the WOT being adapted to a tv series - and was excited.   However I did not pay too much attention over the past few years like many.   I wish I had - not only would I have discovered Dragonmount sooner, but all the fun & enjoyable content out there - on YT, twitter, podcasts & so forth.  And had a better idea of how the adaptation was going.

 

Anyways I will try not to re-hash or be preachy but I do have a realisation for myself that came from a lot of different sources over the past few weeks as I re-immersed myself into WOT.

 

I do not think I need to go into the difference in medium and how a book cannot be adapted 100% - we pretty much all know this - we simply have different ideas of what does & does not work, and how much needs to be adapted for it to work.  Basically a debate over what constitutes the spirit vs the letter of the law.

 

Further, the WOT is not completely all Robert Jordan.   Part of it is his editor & wife, part of it is Brandon Sanderson, and part of it is all the other people who have been involved over the years - beta readers, publisher, and so forth.   There was a really nice comment on a Dragonmount podcast about how each of our interpretations is like a drop of water, but the combined collective is an ocean.   For those that want to travel this (television) ocean with others, that ship/boat is now being steered by Rafe & the amazing people who work with him.

 

That in no way takes away from our own individual interpretation of WOT.  

 

I would like to end off with a thought on a scene from Episode 1.

 

Nynaeve tosses Egwene into the river.  I've talked about this leap of faith.   And how I will need to take a leap of faith with the show much like with the books previously.   But that scene adds to me another reminder - about not just having faith but also about acceptance/struggling.   

 

When Egwene struggles she comes close to drowning - but once she surrenders herself & trusts the river ...   Basically I believe that as long as I accept that the showrunner & crew interpretation will be true to WOT - even if their interpretation differs from mine - then it is going to be exactly like Egwene on the river.  Her acceptance on the river starts her opening up to a whole new possible world(s).

 

Accepting that the shows interpretation of the WOT will be true to the heart and accepting that the changes will work, even those I do not really like, allows for a much better result for me.   

 

 

This is a really great take, and I think what I have ended up doing.

 

Unlike you, I've been following the shows production very closely, so I knew what to expect, none of the major changes were unexpected.  However I actually found myself quite anxious my first time watching, especially in the first episode. I'd resolved myself to the changes, but think I was still struggling with it while watching. I've now surrendered to this telling of the story and am enjoying it immensely.

[Deadsy]

5 minutes ago, Kudzu said:

I've now surrendered to this telling of the story and am enjoying it immensely.

 

 

So you're saying the naysayers need to learn how to embrace saidar.

[ArrylT]

5 minutes ago, Kudzu said:

 

This is a really great take, and I think what I have ended up doing.

 

Unlike you, I've been following the shows production very closely, so I knew what to expect, none of the major changes were unexpected.  However I actually found myself quite anxious my first time watching, especially in the first episode. I'd resolved myself to the changes, but think I was still struggling with it while watching. I've now surrendered to this telling of the story and am enjoying it immensely.

 

Yeah I feel that would have been me as well even if I had done that.   My main regret is not having had the enjoyment of anticipation & learning all the news - but covid & other stuff kept me pre-occupied.   Thanks for your comment!   

[Kudzu]

Just now, Deadsy said:

 

 

So you're saying the naysayers need to learn how to embrace saidar.

 

Well yes, but to be fair @ArrylT said it first.

[ArrylT]

1 minute ago, Kudzu said:

 

Well yes, but to be fair @ArrylT said it first.

 

Well until the taint on saidin is clean at least.  

 

Which I suppose makes for an interesting contrast.   IE some will see the show as saidin to the books while others will see it as saidar.

[Deadsy]

6 minutes ago, Kudzu said:

 

Well yes, but to be fair @ArrylT said it first.

 

3 minutes ago, ArrylT said:

 

Well until the taint on saidin is clean at least.  

 

Which I suppose makes for an interesting contrast.   IE some will see the show as saidin to the books while others will see it as saidar.

 

 

Ah, missed that post.

[nicki_minajah]

On 11/22/2021 at 8:27 PM, dorotea said:

Amazon 3 star raters are all folks like me : not wanting to condemn and bomb, but cannot really like. Aaargh, I just wish Tony McNamara's clone was writing for this show. I am Russian, The Great has nothing in common with actual history, it is progressive as frogs are jumpy and green, and yet it is really amazing and loveable somehow...

 

Just here to say a The Great-style WOT would be a ride. Also that I adore The Great.

[melsnitker]

I have never posted to this forum before, although I have lurked often, off and on over the years. I have enjoyed the analysis, discussion, and debate found here.

 

I am neither an expert on literary analysis, nor on adaptation of books to an audio/visual medium. I have, however, read and loved the books repeatedly. I definitely don't like all of the changes, even as I make a good faith attempt at understand the reasoning behind them. Having established that caveat, I am still quite enjoying the show. 

 

All of that said, I think it is reasonable to step back and look at a few numerical comparisons to the adaptations of Lord of the Rings and Game of Thrones:

 

LotR: movies run between approximately 9 and 12 hours, depending on which version you're watching. The books of the main trilogy are approximately half a million words.

 

GoT: 73 episodes, approximately 73 hours runtime. The currently published novels are approximately 1.7 million words. In this case I do have to acknowledge that the show had to account for the fact that the source material is unfinished (hence the season 8 trainwreck), since Martin seems in no hurry to finish. Nevertheless, still 6 times the runtime, and thus breathing space for adaptation compared to LotR.

 

WoT: If we get 8 seasons of 8 episodes, that would be 64 episodes, approximately 64 hours of runtime. The books are approximately 4.9 million words (including New Spring). That would be less screen time than GoT for over twice the words. (I recognize that much of WoT is highly descriptive writing, often repetitively so.) Granted the runtime here is purely speculative. 

 

As I said above, I don't like every change made, but I do think it's reasonable to step back and acknowledge the sheer magnitude of the task of adapting the source in the time and budgetary restraints imposed.

 

 

[Deadsy]

35 minutes ago, melsnitker said:

I have never posted to this forum before, although I have lurked often, off and on over the years. I have enjoyed the analysis, discussion, and debate found here.

 

I am neither an expert on literary analysis, nor on adaptation of books to an audio/visual medium. I have, however, read and loved the books repeatedly. I definitely don't like all of the changes, even as I make a good faith attempt at understand the reasoning behind them. Having established that caveat, I am still quite enjoying the show. 

 

All of that said, I think it is reasonable to step back and look at a few numerical comparisons to the adaptations of Lord of the Rings and Game of Thrones:

 

LotR: movies run between approximately 9 and 12 hours, depending on which version you're watching. The books of the main trilogy are approximately half a million words.

 

GoT: 73 episodes, approximately 73 hours runtime. The currently published novels are approximately 1.7 million words. In this case I do have to acknowledge that the show had to account for the fact that the source material is unfinished (hence the season 8 trainwreck), since Martin seems in no hurry to finish. Nevertheless, still 6 times the runtime, and thus breathing space for adaptation compared to LotR.

 

WoT: If we get 8 seasons of 8 episodes, that would be 64 episodes, approximately 64 hours of runtime. The books are approximately 4.9 million words (including New Spring). That would be less screen time than GoT for over twice the words. (I recognize that much of WoT is highly descriptive writing, often repetitively so.) Granted the runtime here is purely speculative. 

 

As I said above, I don't like every change made, but I do think it's reasonable to step back and acknowledge the sheer magnitude of the task of adapting the source in the time and budgetary restraints imposed.

 

 

 

 

Very good point. I'm hoping the show is successful enough in seasons 1 and 2 that they will allow 10 episode seasons after that, and maybe 10 seasons.

[Maximillion]

53 minutes ago, melsnitker said:

I have never posted to this forum before, although I have lurked often, off and on over the years. I have enjoyed the analysis, discussion, and debate found here.

 

I am neither an expert on literary analysis, nor on adaptation of books to an audio/visual medium. I have, however, read and loved the books repeatedly. I definitely don't like all of the changes, even as I make a good faith attempt at understand the reasoning behind them. Having established that caveat, I am still quite enjoying the show. 

 

All of that said, I think it is reasonable to step back and look at a few numerical comparisons to the adaptations of Lord of the Rings and Game of Thrones:

 

LotR: movies run between approximately 9 and 12 hours, depending on which version you're watching. The books of the main trilogy are approximately half a million words.

 

GoT: 73 episodes, approximately 73 hours runtime. The currently published novels are approximately 1.7 million words. In this case I do have to acknowledge that the show had to account for the fact that the source material is unfinished (hence the season 8 trainwreck), since Martin seems in no hurry to finish. Nevertheless, still 6 times the runtime, and thus breathing space for adaptation compared to LotR.

 

WoT: If we get 8 seasons of 8 episodes, that would be 64 episodes, approximately 64 hours of runtime. The books are approximately 4.9 million words (including New Spring). That would be less screen time than GoT for over twice the words. (I recognize that much of WoT is highly descriptive writing, often repetitively so.) Granted the runtime here is purely speculative. 

 

As I said above, I don't like every change made, but I do think it's reasonable to step back and acknowledge the sheer magnitude of the task of adapting the source in the time and budgetary restraints imposed.

 

 

 

The pace of the show is one of my problems with it - it feels rushed.  It's looking to me like they will get close to 2 books per season.  At that rate it will take 7 seasons to tell the story, or 56 episodes.  That is very rushed when compared to something like GoT which did a much better job of character development, at least until they ruined every but of character development they had created from the earlier seasons.

 

I think they will need at least 100 episodes to tell this story and they just won't get it.

Honestly, I would be pleasantly surprised if the show ran for more than 3 seasons.

 

 

[Harad the White]

One post herein said (paraphrasing), "The show is not the book. It's now just the interpretation of the creators." Yes. That's what changing from one medium to another is. You read the book. Then you create in your mind an "interpretation" of the what the book says. Rand has reddish hair. How red? The presence of the power gives others goosebumps--are they big warts or undetectable even in HD? There are zero visual facts in a book. If you hate the interpretation, why would you want to watch, and why would you want more seasons? Hurts so bad. Happily, WoT Amazon, is probably getting to be popular enuf, that the loud wails of the naysayers and nitpickers will not curtail future seasons for the rest of us who enjoy it.

[Fox]

As much as I want a straight book adaption, I know it won't translate well to video format. Movies would be too long, and a series would last longer than the Simpsons. Some changes are good, some are bad. Either way, to me, it's WoT on my TV, give/take 20 years in the making. They are aiming for a GoT feel, which the books aren't, but it isn't as bad as The Legend The Seeker or Shannara. I'm getting what I expected, I just hope it lasts long enough to do the entire series, so I'll keep watching.

[Harad the White]

13 minutes ago, Fox said:

They are aiming for a GoT feel,

Don't see any factual basis for that.

On another point, I like the Perrin casting choice, and the way he is used. The actor looks like he doesn't have a clue, a big lumbering mystical blacksmith. But his dialog is sharp and incisive. Kinda like the guy in the book.

[JJLXL]

Maybe we could think of this adaptation as one of those mirror worlds from the portal stones?  Basically WoT's version of the multiverse.  That's what I'm gonna need to do.  We're watching a mirror world of Randland where people hate long drawn out plot lines and always get right to the point.  ?

 

I knew they would need to condense the plots.  700+ pages into less than 8 hours is quite the feat, to be sure.  I.e. LoTR extended edition movies equal just shy of 12 hours with 1000 pages of source material, and still lots was missing.  I was just unprepared for how jarring it would be.