Changes to Perrin

[KakitaOCU]

2 hours ago, TheDreadReader said:

 

That is the problem with Brandon's idea of using Master Luhhan instead.  The average viewer won't have enough emotional investment in the character from the start to stick the landing. 

 

You are 100% correct.  I would say the reason I agree with Sanderson is because the book fans would be less angry.

Here's a question.  Which is the more egregious change?  That Perrin was married or that Abell Cauthon is a womanizer and Natti Cauthon is a drunk?  I know which one bugs me more as a fan.  I also know which one I've seen complained about at length and in exhaustive detail.   

So while newcomers would not know who Master Luhhan was, the book fans would and it might have alleviated some of this.

[MasterAblar]

Hard to say. Emotionally the change to Mat's parents bothers me more, simply because it makes me sad to see his parents turned into this.

 

Logically the Perrin one bothers me more because I'm worried how it will play out. But they will hopefully pull it off.

[AshennaSedai]

4 hours ago, Daenelia said:

But how could that have been done otherwise? Woulkd it have been an option to have an episode 0 with Perrin's courtship and wedding?

I don't think so but TBH they didn't need to add her at all. The trolloc attack would have been traumatic. Seeing any manner of folks in a small, insular village die would have been traumatic. It would have easily explained the brooding. Other folks have mentioned that Master Luhan was pondered as an option to die.

 

I'm not saying that Laila wasn't a person but fridging someone is absolutely lazy storytelling at best. There are so many other people that Perrin cares about. His wife did not need to die to start his story arc.

[KakitaOCU]

33 minutes ago, MasterAblar said:

Hard to say. Emotionally the change to Mat's parents bothers me more, simply because it makes me sad to see his parents turned into this.

 

Logically the Perrin one bothers me more because I'm worried how it will play out. But they will hopefully pull it off.

Fair.  But while I disagree with you on that second point, you're sitting here discussing this rationally with me.  So...   For better or worse you're not the type of "Fan" I think that change would have helped.  ?

[AshennaSedai]

37 minutes ago, KakitaOCU said:

Here's a question.  Which is the more egregious change?  That Perrin was married or that Abell Cauthon is a womanizer and Natti Cauthon is a drunk?  I know which one bugs me more as a fan.  I also know which one I've seen complained about at length and in exhaustive detail.  

 

Why must these be compared? This will vary from person to person I think due to life experiences. My personal feelings are that the addition of Leila affected me more but that doesn't mean either was more or less egregious than the other.

[KakitaOCU]

1 minute ago, AshennaSedai said:

I don't think so but TBH they didn't need to add her at all. The trolloc attack would have been traumatic. Seeing any manner of folks in a small, insular village die would have been traumatic. It would have easily explained the brooding. Other folks have mentioned that Master Luhan was pondered as an option to die.

 

I'm not saying that Laila wasn't a person but fridging someone is absolutely lazy storytelling at best. There are so many other people that Perrin cares about. His wife did not need to die to start his story arc.

Honestly, seeing Rafe say his original idea was to combine Master Luhhan into Perrin's mother and have her die, I think that would have been a better choice.

[Theseus78]

6 hours ago, Elgee said:

I haven't seen anyone addressing the elephants in the room (or maybe it's in some thread somewhere that I've just missed).

 

1. Why was Laila so cold to Perrin?

2. Why was Perrin drinking with his buddies in the inn while his wife's slaving away in the smithy?

3. Does Perrin have a thing for Egwene?

1.  With the whole thing with the belly, I'm thinking recent miscarriage.  Which would set up another whole set of emotional issues.

2.  He even said "didn't you go out with Egwene?" (or something to that effect)  He thought she was out doing women's stuff.

3.  Nope.  Just friends.

[AshennaSedai]

4 minutes ago, KakitaOCU said:

Honestly, seeing Rafe say his original idea was to combine Master Luhhan into Perrin's mother and have her die, I think that would have been a better choice.

 

I'm mixed and hesitant as it is still fridging. I really would have rather them firmly establish just how insular Emond's Field was and let the trolloc attack itself explain the broodiness.

Edited November 24, 2021 by AshennaSedai

[Elder_Haman]

Just now, AshennaSedai said:

I'm mixed and hesitant as it is still fridging. I really would have rather them firmly establish just how insular Emond's Field was and let the trolloc attack itself explain the broodiness.

I will say this - it was a memorable scene. Many of the reaction videos from people who don't know the books focused on it. So at least in that respect it did what it was intended to do.

[TheDreadReader]

44 minutes ago, KakitaOCU said:

You are 100% correct.  I would say the reason I agree with Sanderson is because the book fans would be less angry.

Here's a question.  Which is the more egregious change?  That Perrin was married or that Abell Cauthon is a womanizer and Natti Cauthon is a drunk?  I know which one bugs me more as a fan.  I also know which one I've seen complained about at length and in exhaustive detail.   

 

So while newcomers would not know who Master Luhhan was, the book fans would and it might have alleviated some of this.

 

I find the Perrin change more egregious because of the 'fridging' factor but I understand Rafe's reasoning for it.

 

I actually generally like the changes to Mat's family.  They may help solve some of my complaints about Mat's early story.

 

[mogi68]

The fridging could have been much worse. I think it was executed about as well as could be expected.

It would be cool if they included Abell and Tam traveling to Tar Valon to look for the boys. It would go a long way towards building a Cauthon redemption arc

[KakitaOCU]

10 minutes ago, AshennaSedai said:

 

Why must these be compared? This will vary from person to person I think due to life experiences. My personal feelings are that the addition of Leila affected me more but that doesn't mean either was more or less egregious than the other.

They don't have to be compared.  Or rather, the comparison is only important for the specific purpose of addressing the issue I was raising, that it being Master Luhhan would likely have calmed some of the more vocal "fans".   
 

5 minutes ago, TheDreadReader said:

 

I find the Perrin change more egregious because of the 'fridging' factor but I understand Rafe's reasoning for it.

 

I actually generally like the changes to Mat's family.  They may help solve some of my complaints about Mat's early story.

 

Funny enough, you're the first I've seen say they like the Cauthon family changes.  I happen to agree with you on it giving more justification to why he learned to gamble and why he has such quick hands.

[JenniferL]

19 minutes ago, Elder_Haman said:

I will say this - it was a memorable scene. Many of the reaction videos from people who don't know the books focused on it. So at least in that respect it did what it was intended to do.

The entire theater, including me, gasped out loud when it happened. Including me and I was expecting it. 

[MasterAblar]

Yeah I mean that was definitely the point of the scene perhaps even moreso than setting up Perrin's internal turmoil. You could replace her with someone else I suppose but the effect wouldn't be as strong. It's why fridging is so widespread: it's lazy but rather effective.

[Elder_Haman]

2 minutes ago, MasterAblar said:

it's lazy but rather effective.

I thought having it be at Perrin's own hand was a fairly unique twist. I mean I saw it coming - makes too much sense from a character perspective to do it some other way, but it is a step above having a trolloc cut her down while he watches helplessly and screams "noooooo!"

[MasterAblar]

3 minutes ago, Elder_Haman said:

I thought having it be at Perrin's own hand was a fairly unique twist. I mean I saw it coming - makes too much sense from a character perspective to do it some other way, but it is a step above having a trolloc cut her down while he watches helplessly and screams "noooooo!"

 

It would definitely hit harder for me if I wasn't hanging out on this stupid website and already been aware it was a possibility... ?

[Theseus78]

1 hour ago, TheDreadReader said:

I actually generally like the changes to Mat's family.  They may help solve some of my complaints about Mat's early story.

 

One thing I noticed in the fandom is that everyone is talking about the changes to Abell and Natti, but not a peep about the down-aging of Bode and Eldrin to make the whole "take care of the little girls" thing work.  Big age difference between Mat and them vs the books (where they are 17 and 16 in 999NE)

[SinisterDeath]

18 hours ago, Theseus78 said:

One thing I noticed in the fandom is that everyone is talking about the changes to Abell and Natti, but not a peep about the down-aging of Bode and Eldrin to make the whole "take care of the little girls" thing work.  Big age difference between Mat and them vs the books (where they are 17 and 16 in 999NE)

I've heard a couple of rumblings about that.

 

My guess is that they're going to age down novice acceptance to as young as puberty, which can be as young as 8. 

It'll really bring home "The Witches steal our children!"

[MasterAblar]

12 minutes ago, SinisterDeath said:

I've heard a couple of rumblings about that.

 

My guess is that they're going to age down novice acceptance to as young as puberty, which can be as young as 8. 

It'll really bring home "The Witches steal our children!"

They’ll be lowering the age of channeling as well then I guess? Think it’s around 14 or something normally, older for men. Could be wrong though.

[TheDreadReader]

18 hours ago, Theseus78 said:

One thing I noticed in the fandom is that everyone is talking about the changes to Abell and Natti, but not a peep about the down-aging of Bode and Eldrin to make the whole "take care of the little girls" thing work.  Big age difference between Mat and them vs the books (where they are 17 and 16 in 999NE)

 

I would tie this to TV production factors playing a part.   It makes sense to age them down to increase the severity of conflict for Mat early and you can always age up later via recast if you decide to include them at a future point.   I wouldn't hold my breath on seeing the sisters again (in the way that you see them in the books) for budget reasons.  (Think Rickon in GoT.)

 

 

[Agitel]

17 minutes ago, SinisterDeath said:

I've heard a couple of rumblings about that.

 

My guess is that they're going to age down novice acceptance to as young as puberty, which can be as young as 8. 

It'll really bring home "The Witches steal our children!"

 

We might not see Bode go to the Tower at all. Things get cut. Or, since TV shows sometimes say "one season is one year", next time we see Bode she'll be four years older than she was in episode one. Or recast and older.

[SinisterDeath]

19 minutes ago, MasterAblar said:

They’ll be lowering the age of channeling as well then I guess? Think it’s around 14 or something normally, older for men. Could be wrong though.

Early Teens for women, late teens for men, which actually correlates to puberty. RJ may not have known that women can start puberty as early as 8, though it's far more typical in the 12-16 range, which coincides with the years women with the Spark start to manifest their abilities.

 

Oddly, I don't think he really explained much about women without the spark but can learn to channel.

[Daenelia]

8 is very very unusual for puberty in girls. That was linked, I think, to environmental issues. I really feel for girls that start puberty under 10. That is just horrid. I am sure those girls would be better off having puberty-halting medication until they are ready, mentally.

[TheDreadReader]

One of the challenges with the "lore" issues that some character changes is that Egwene might be on the too old side of "book lore" which then makes Bode on the too young side of "book lore".   They may not have thought that one through all way.

 

I tend to fall on the side of assuming they thought it through until we see clear evidence of them writing themselves into a corner.   I don't think I've seen evidence that they have done that with anything yet.  So, I'm not going to worry too much about it.

 

 

[TheDreadReader]

After watching some of the Dusty Wheel's latest show this morning, I started to find theories about Layla's background this morning.  I'm also throwing some Perrin and Layla's relationship theories into the mix here.

 

I've found...

- Layla was pregnant or had a miscarriage.

- Layla was a darkfriend.

- Layla was a Tinker.

- Perrin was secretly in love with Egwene.

- Perrin wasn't the hardest worker.

- Perrin and Layla were having money issues.

 

Any others?

 

My current theory on her background is that the Women's Circle forced the Perrin and Layla marriage and that Layla wasn't quite fully okay with it.   I also wonder if Egwene may have had some part to play in the Women's Circle pressuring them to get married if that was the case. 

 

Layla seems to have little interest in the festivities.  She didn't participate in the WC ceremony.   Perrin makes a face when Egwene's name is mentioned at the Inn.  Perrin and Rand both give Mat money.  And, Nyneave makes a point to draw Perrin's attention to Layla's absence.

 

Given that this thread is about changes to Perrin's character, which of these seem consistent with book Perrin and which might point to potential changes coming down the road to Perrin's storylines?