Aes Sedai Executions

[rowdie]

How can the white cloaks execute that many Aes Sedai without getting crushed?   

 

If and when the Aes Sedai find out, that would allow them to defend themselves anytime they see a white cloaks wouldn't it?  Unless Valda has a ter'angreal I see no possible way he can capture then burn them alive.  

[Elder_Haman]

38 minutes ago, NightWolf said:

I would say that if this arc were in the books then either A) Valda caught and killed those Sedai each alone or B) the Seat would have already sent retaliation and had Warders bring back Valda's head.

 

In the show, the entire Valda scene w/ the yellow sister was pure shock value.

So you believe that there is no history of Whitecloaks killing Aes Sedai? I find that hard to believe. The One Power does not make the Aes Sedai invincible. 
 

I quite like making the Whitecloaks - especially the questioners - more of a threat. 

[Elder_Haman]

1 minute ago, NightWolf said:

No, I believe there definitely is history of that... the Whitecloak threat is very real. First example hinted at was Chapter 4 of New Spring where Siuan and Moiraine we're escorted across Tar Valon's southern bridge. 

 

What I don't recall is Valda collecting rings from perceived executed Sedai. A singular threat of that magnitude would've brought retaliation from the Tower. 

 

But again... this is all my opinion and not to be confused with fact.

I don’t know that we have the whole context. 

[ManetherenTaveren]

25 minutes ago, NightWolf said:

What I don't recall is Valda collecting rings from perceived executed Sedai. A singular threat of that magnitude would've brought retaliation from the Tower. 

That was particularly jarring for me as well. I've always considered the CotL to be a more bizarro version of the Spanish Inquisition (a la Monty Python), with their questioners ripe with ineptitude and hypocrisy. 

 

I was actually relieved to hear the whitecloak captain (Bornhald?) give some helpful advice to Moraine and give a concerned look toward Valda. IIRC, the CotL aren't Aes Sedai hunters, they're aggressive (albeit delusional) darkfriend hunters. I believe Valda is going to be the ultimate hypocrite, imho.

 

I never really took the CotL with any sort of respect until Galad joined. We'll see.

[king of nowhere]

it is stated in the books that whitecloacks kill aes sedai when they can, and when an aes sedai disappears, they are often assumed to be responsible.

for all aes sedai power, a few dozen trollocs were enough to pose a real risk to moiraine. and she's one of the strongest aes sedai living.

 

it doesn't help that apparently aes sedai have no battle training whatsoever, and they spend more time politicking than using the power.

[JenniferL]

It’s not easy for a non-channeler to take out a trained Aes Sedai, but it’s not impossible. Catch one unawares and knock her out and she’s helpless. Kill her warder and she’s incapacitated. 

[Jadefade]

Imho, as long as an Aes Sedai is conscious and not shielded she can defend herself, (even in the dark without her hands as Rand did in the Box once to untied the shield) now if the whitecloaks know about and were able to tricked an Aes Sedai into drinking forkroot tea then they could burn them while they were unconscious, otherwise I don’t know why they were not able to defend themselves - I don’t remember any where a whitecloak was able to over power an Aes Sedai face to face, bully yes actually attack not that I remember. If there is please let me know where I’d like to read that part again, every time I reread I find something new

[WhiteVeils]

It's stated in the books that when an Aes Sedai has learned how to do something, for example, with using a particular gesture, then it's very difficult to unlearn that and do it another way.  And for Moiraine, at least, it's clear that hand gestures were very necessary for her battle magics, which is probably common for combat training in the Tower, at least for non-Green/Red.

[Tasuxeda]

Not all Aes Sedai are strong like some of the more notable Aes Sedai in the series some are relatively weak and if she was one of the weaker Aes Sedai and was travelling alone or even just with her warder it likely isn't impossible for her to be overwhelmed by a group of white cloak.

[Deadsy]

1 hour ago, Jadefade said:

Imho, as long as an Aes Sedai is conscious and not shielded she can defend herself, (even in the dark without her hands as Rand did in the Box once to untied the shield) now if the whitecloaks know about and were able to tricked an Aes Sedai into drinking forkroot tea then they could burn them while they were unconscious, otherwise I don’t know why they were not able to defend themselves - I don’t remember any where a whitecloak was able to over power an Aes Sedai face to face, bully yes actually attack not that I remember. If there is please let me know where I’d like to read that part again, every time I reread I find something new

 

 

The way I see it, they are giving all Aes Sedai a weakness in the show which is not the case across the board in the books but is still canon, which other people have mentioned. Many Aes Sedai use gestures when they channel and it's hard for them to channel without doing it the way they learned. The Wise Ones even mock this in the books.

So, I believe they are using this in the show to build up a better group of villains in the Whitecloaks. It's a way to balance the power a bit.

 

I am guessing Nynaeve, Egwene, and Elayne will not have this weakness.

Edited November 22, 2021 by Deadsy

[DaddyFinn]

2 hours ago, Jadefade said:

Imho, as long as an Aes Sedai is conscious and not shielded she can defend herself, (even in the dark without her hands as Rand did in the Box once to untied the shield) now if the whitecloaks know about and were able to tricked an Aes Sedai into drinking forkroot tea then they could burn them while they were unconscious, otherwise I don’t know why they were not able to defend themselves - I don’t remember any where a whitecloak was able to over power an Aes Sedai face to face, bully yes actually attack not that I remember. If there is please let me know where I’d like to read that part again, every time I reread I find something new

Rand doesn't use his hands much. Balefire is one exception IIRC. Forkroot tea shouldn't be that hard to force down her throat when she's unconscious. She also has blood on her forehead so obviously she has been knocked out before the scene. She could have a concussion. We don't know all the context and reasons so I won't judge it yet. I tend to be optimistic until proven otherwise.

[Starganderfish]

 

Ambush is an easy way to cath/kill an Aes Sedai. An arrow or sling from afar would take one down easily. Also, we know that the Warder bound is strong and the death of a Warder has a powerful effect. Sneak up on an Aes Sedai, riddle her Warder with arrows and while she's realing in shock, hit her in the head with a blunt fouling arrow or sling stone.

Blow-pipes and sleeping darts? Smoke bombs (hard to focus when blind and coughing from smoke). 

Spoiler

In [LOC: 46, Beyond the Gate, 580-581], Demira Eriff of the Brown Ajah, a member of the Salidar Embassy, is attacked by a group of men dressed like Aiel. she ducks into an alley and runs into men dressed as Aiel, who stab her with spears. She is severely injured, but not killed.

These newer, creepier, more psychotic Whitecloaks seem like teh type to have put a LOT of thought into ways to take down a threat from afar.

As for once they're captured, needing hands for the weaves aside, I highly doubt even the greatest Aes Sedai can focus and surrender well enough to channel with two bleeding stumps for hands and her feet on fire. 

I actually really buy this change, It makes the Whitecloaks more of a real world threat.

7 hours ago, rowdie said:

that would allow them to defend themselves anytime they see a white cloaks wouldn't it?

 I don't think that's how the oaths work?: 
 

3. Never to use the One Power as a weapon except against Darkfriends or Shadowspawn, or in the last extreme defense of her life, the life of her Warder, or another Aes Sedai

 

An Aes Sedai can step in front of a charging swordsman and use the power to kill him to save her life. She can't just kill a man walking past because he's carrying a sword and might take a swing at her. That's what makes them uniquely vulnerable. Unless its a direct threat, they can't do anything. Thats why the Sisters all started physically wading into the battle at Dumai's Wells. They couldn't stand on the sidelines tossing fireballs, they or their warders had to be under direct threat. 

Edited November 22, 2021 by Starganderfish

[Starganderfish]

3 hours ago, Jadefade said:

Imho, as long as an Aes Sedai is conscious and not shielded she can defend herself, (even in the dark without her hands as Rand did in the Box once to untied the shield) now if the whitecloaks know about and were able to tricked an Aes Sedai into drinking forkroot tea then they could burn them while they were unconscious, otherwise I don’t know why they were not able to defend themselves - I don’t remember any where a whitecloak was able to over power an Aes Sedai face to face, bully yes actually attack not that I remember. If there is please let me know where I’d like to read that part again, every time I reread I find something new

Not a Whitecloak but:

Spoiler

In [LOC: 46, Beyond the Gate, 580-581], Demira Eriff of the Brown Ajah, a member of the Salidar Embassy, is attacked by a group of men dressed like Aiel. she ducks into an alley and runs into men dressed as Aiel, who stab her with spears. She is severely injured, but not killed.

 

Edited November 22, 2021 by Starganderfish

[Raezold]

12 hours ago, Starganderfish said:

An Aes Sedai can step in front of a charging swordsman and use the power to kill him to save her life. She can't just kill a man walking past because he's carrying a sword and might take a swing at her. That's what makes them uniquely vulnerable. Unless its a direct threat, they can't do anything. Thats why the Sisters all started physically wading into the battle at Dumai's Wells. They couldn't stand on the sidelines tossing fireballs, they or their warders had to be under direct threat. 

 

I remember something about making themselves believe someone is a threat and being able to attack.
Or maybe that was a theory on the forums.. 

[DaddyFinn]

4 minutes ago, Raezold said:

 

I remember something about making themselves believe someone is a threat and being able to attack.

I remember that too. It was something about a battle that had just begun and the Aes Sedai were so far they weren't in immediate danger but when stuff started to land near them they were able to convince themselves they were in danger. I think it was Dumai's Wells

Edited November 22, 2021 by DaddyFinn
Typo

[DojoToad]

17 hours ago, Elder_Haman said:

So you believe that there is no history of Whitecloaks killing Aes Sedai? I find that hard to believe. The One Power does not make the Aes Sedai invincible. 
 

I quite like making the Whitecloaks - especially the questioners - more of a threat. 

Agreed - that making them more of a threat was an improvement.  But they also need to back it up with realism.  How do they accomplish this - especially with Valda's collection.

 

I do remember in the books it being mentioned that the Aes Sedai were worried about White Cloak archers.  Be interested to see if/how they handle it on the show.

[JenniferL]

Yes, the Aes Sedai disobey orders to stay out of the fight because they can’t help unless they are in danger. Also, in The Gathering Storm, Elaida starts psyching herself up to kill Egwene by telling herself that Egwene is a Darkfriend and therefore a threat she’s allowed to use the Power on. 

[Elder_Haman]

13 minutes ago, DojoToad said:

How do they accomplish this - especially with Valda's collection.

I think we will find out. My guess is that they use forkroot, the stedding, spies (to help them find sisters traveling alone or with only 1 warder), a variety of tactics. We don't know how long its taken Valda to get that collection (I didn't count them, but it seemed to be maybe 6 or 7), but it's not like he had a throne built out of the skulls of his Aes Sedai conquests. I think we can infer that the Whitecloaks are dangerous to unwary Aes Sedai who happen to chance into them, but not much of a threat to the institution of the White Tower. 

 

The Amyrlin probably feels like it's easier to tell sisters to be vigilant rather than risk the public relations problems you might get from being too aggressive with the Whitecloaks.

[DojoToad]

8 minutes ago, Elder_Haman said:

The Amyrlin probably feels like it's easier to tell sisters to be vigilant rather than risk the public relations problems you might get from being too aggressive with the Whitecloaks.

How many would be calling for the Amyrlin's head were she to wipe out the Whitecloaks? ?

 

[Elder_Haman]

3 minutes ago, DojoToad said:

How many would be calling for the Amyrlin's head were she to wipe out the Whitecloaks? ?

 

Yeah, I never really got why people tolerated the Whitecloaks. But evidently they command some degree of respect from the general populace. It was a bit of a gap in RJ's worldbuilding, tbh.

[DojoToad]

4 minutes ago, Elder_Haman said:

Yeah, I never really got why people tolerated the Whitecloaks. But evidently they command some degree of respect from the general populace. It was a bit of a gap in RJ's worldbuilding, tbh.

Might makes right is the only thing I can think of.  But even Whitecloaks have families - as do Aes Sedai witches.

[JenniferL]

12 minutes ago, Elder_Haman said:

Yeah, I never really got why people tolerated the Whitecloaks. But evidently they command some degree of respect from the general populace. It was a bit of a gap in RJ's worldbuilding, tbh.

Its a check on the power of the Aes Sedai and White Tower. Outside of Andor and the Borderlands, it seems like rulers don’t really like the Aes Sedai and distrust their meddling. And since they basically control Amadicia, it sets a bad precedent for other nations to invade and change the power structures of another country. Your average person has heard plenty of stories about Aes Sedai witches and how they caused the breaking, so they aren’t really motivated to do anything about the Children either. They probably think both sides aren’t anything they want to mess with and just stay away. 

[ForsakenPotato]

I think also because of the oaths, the Aes Sedai also can't just retaliate against Valda with the power. Like if he makes a mistake while trying to mess with an Aes Sedai she can defend herself, but I'm not sure other sisters can go take him out just because they know he can kill sisters and has a history of doing so. Basically, I think they need to catch him in the act to be able to use the power against him.

 

That said I was also confused when I saw the Aes Sedai burning, so I do hope we find out what his methods are.

[TheMountain]

1 hour ago, ForsakenPotato said:

I think also because of the oaths, the Aes Sedai also can't just retaliate against Valda with the power. Like if he makes a mistake while trying to mess with an Aes Sedai she can defend herself, but I'm not sure other sisters can go take him out just because they know he can kill sisters and has a history of doing so. Basically, I think they need to catch him in the act to be able to use the power against him.

 

That said I was also confused when I saw the Aes Sedai burning, so I do hope we find out what his methods are.

The Aes Sedai can raise armies and declare war. Those armies can do the fighting for them.

[Theseus78]

I wonder if the hands thing is also a "whitecloak urban legend."  They've standardized the process: you knock the Aes Sedai unconscious, and then feed her this herb, and then you cut off her hands.  To them, all those steps are necessary.  And, so far it's worked.