Feminism changes

[DojoToad]

Guess Rafe was good to his word at being a feminist:

• Marin, not Bran, was running the inn - not that they weren't co-owners in the books, but he was an afterthought  on TV with no mention of him being mayor.  And definitely a Women's Circle with no sign of a Town Council.
• During the Bel Tine attack, a group of women isolate and take out a trolloc.  Nynaeve takes one out on her own.  Perrin only takes one out with the help of Laila.  Where are the rest of the village men - cowering in terror somewhere?
• When Perrin and Egwene are directed to the Tinkers, Ila takes the role of Seeker not Raen.
• The darkfriend that first challenges Rand (and forces him to channel) was changed from a man with some male lackeys to a single 'terminator' female.

 

So the Aes Sedai retain their role as the ultimate power - which is only right?.  But anywhere a man had authority or a lead role in the books, it has been flipped to a woman having control.  Interesting juxtaposition.

 

So what do you all think, was this needed to transition the WoT from book to TV.  Will it make the show more successful?  Where else do you anticipate men being supplanted?

[TheDreadReader]

I think that some of these changes are showing a logically consistent world built on top of RJ's foundation.

 

I saw a bunch of fans responding negatively to Rand's "I moved over here to be alone" response to Egwene wanting to join him in his blankets as he was sleeping.   It struck me as a little odd really.   In context, Egwene has chosen to accept a position of greater social and political power in the community by becoming a wisdom's apprentice.  Following that, Egwene is clearly starting to go down the road of becoming an Aes Sedai which would add magical power to the mix.  So, given the disparate potential power levels present in that moment....  in our world, we might look a man doing the same as being pretty creepy.

 

(We know that Rand will eventually achieve political and magical power equal or even superior to Egwene's (at least in the books) but at that moment he doesn't have any of that.)

 

That said, I don't agree that Rafe and team are imposing any external feminist ideologies on the story as much as they are bringing out a system of power relationships that are consistent with what the books show.   There may be some differences with how RJ showed things and how the show tells things but I don't see those differences amounting to all that huge of a difference.

 

 

[Katherine]

Rafe has constantly talked about balance between genders. Saw no balance. 
 

I don’t dislike any of the female characters… but give some male leaders that I love too!

[TheDreadReader]

1 minute ago, Katherine said:

Rafe has constantly talked about balance between genders. Saw no balance. 
 

I don’t dislike any of the female characters… but give some male leaders that I love too!

 

Yes, but you could easily see the first three episodes as setting the stage with that imbalance and that establishes the basic conflict of having to achieve and find balance as the show goes on.

 

Spoiler

An example from episode 3.

 

Dana clearly has the advantage over Rand/Mat throughout the episode until Thom cuts to the chase and puts a dagger in her throat.  She's dead.  They're alive.  There is a significantly different balance of power at the end of the episode than there was before.

 

 

 

[Katherine]

3 minutes ago, TheDreadReader said:

 

Yes, but you could easily see the first three episodes as setting the stage with that imbalance and that establishes the basic conflict of having to achieve and find balance as the show goes on.

 

  Hide contents

An example from episode 3.

 

Dana clearly has the advantage over Rand/Mat throughout the episode until Thom cuts to the chase and puts a dagger in her throat.  She's dead.  They're alive.  There is a significantly different balance of power at the end of the episode than there was before.

 

 

 

That is a good point. 
 

I just wish they were doing elegant world building instead of hamfisting it. No nuance. 

[DojoToad]

24 minutes ago, TheDreadReader said:

 

Yes, but you could easily see the first three episodes as setting the stage with that imbalance and that establishes the basic conflict of having to achieve and find balance as the show goes on.

 

  Hide contents

An example from episode 3.

 

Dana clearly has the advantage over Rand/Mat throughout the episode until Thom cuts to the chase and puts a dagger in her throat.  She's dead.  They're alive.  There is a significantly different balance of power at the end of the episode than there was before.

 

 

 

I never felt an imbalance between male/female power in the books.  Yes, Aes Sedai at the top of the heap, but there were still male generals, kings, mayors, merchants that had 'power'/leadership roles.  Different than the real world, sure, but not exclusively one way or the other.

 

They can show imbalance without being forced.  All I've seen so far are emasculated men when there was no need for such.  How do they address the balance - by making the women fall.  Seems like amateur hour.  Why give women 100% of the power just to rebalance later by giving the men, say, 10% - there, all fixed.  I'm fine with women having more power, even the lion's share, but by not giving men any power I have a hard time with suspension of disbelief.

[WhiteVeils]

There are men in the circle fighting the trolloc in Two Rivers.  They're just not as prominent as the women.

[The Purple Ajah]

The Women's Circle is far more important to the journey of the main characters. Egwene and Nynaeve are part of it. The boys aren't part of the Village Council. Simple, really.  That's also true with Marin: she's more important to Egwene's mini-journey in episode 1, because she's part of the Women's Circle that Egwene is joining.

 

The premiere also saw us introduced to an all male organization, the Children of the Light. I don't think that some exclusively 'female dominated' world would have some soldiers swanning around and burning woman at the stake as witches, do you? 

 

Dana seemed incredibly like Mili Skane from the books, a female Darkfriend who was considered a threat. I don't see the issue with a nefarious Darkfriend being able to take down Rand and Mat, who are still beginners with their weapons - especially when Dana is instantly taken out by Thom Merrilin.

 

I don't get the reason to fuss about things like Marin tending the bar (as she often would have done in the books). Things really aren't much different 

46 minutes ago, DojoToad said:

I never felt an imbalance between male/female power in the books.  Yes, Aes Sedai at the top of the heap, but there were still male generals, kings, mayors, merchants that had 'power'/leadership roles.  Different than the real world, sure, but not exclusively one way or the other.

 

They can show imbalance without being forced.  All I've seen so far are emasculated men when there was no need for such.  How do they address the balance - by making the women fall.  Seems like amateur hour.  Why give women 100% of the power just to rebalance later by giving the men, say, 10% - there, all fixed.  I'm fine with women having more power, even the lion's share, but by not giving men any power I have a hard time with suspension of disbelief.

Emasculation? Oh, please.

[DojoToad]

27 minutes ago, The Purple Ajah said:

The premiere also saw us introduced to an all male organization, the Children of the Light. I don't think that some exclusively 'female dominated' world would have some soldiers swanning around and burning woman at the stake as witches, do you? 

 

The Children were in the books - this is not a change.

 

Flip-flopping Raen and Ila, Bran and Marin were changes.  They were changes to minor characters that weren't necessary.  Every change from the books so far has been to take power from the men and give it to women.  So yes, emasculating.  

[The Purple Ajah]

1 minute ago, DojoToad said:

The Children were in the books - this is not a change.

 

Flip-flopping Raen and Ila, Bran and Marin were changes.  They were changes to minor characters that weren't necessary.  Every change from the books so far has been to take power from the men and give it to women.  So yes, emasculating.  

It's not a change, but it shows how they've preserved the male authority that's supposedly lacking.

 

I don't know or to laugh or cry that your supposed example of "emasculation" are "woman owns inn" and "woman makes introductions for her family." Wow, so horrible! 

[Skipp]

4 minutes ago, DojoToad said:

The Children were in the books - this is not a change.

 

Flip-flopping Raen and Ila, Bran and Marin were changes.  They were changes to minor characters that weren't necessary.  Every change from the books so far has been to take power from the men and give it to women.  So yes, emasculating.  

While I beleive they flipped Raen and Ila there really is no evidence they flipped Marin and Bran.  Most of Brans scenes came with Tam or the village council.  The show didn't linger on those aspects.  Marin was part of Egwene's ceremony because it would be odd for Bran to be there.  Moiraine decided to address Marin for whatever reason.

 

The subject of Mayor was never brought up and considering what they showed it had no need to come out.  If when the show circles back to EF and Marin is the mayor I will eat my crow.

[ForsakenPotato]

It doesn't seem completely fair to imply that everything cool or powerful that men do in the books is getting handed to women in the show.

 

We see in the show that Perrin is fighting and killing trollocs, and we get to see that onscreen which we don't in the books. We don't get the scene of the lady killing the trolloc with a frying pan which we hear about in the books, presumably because when you see the size and power of them onscreen it's obvious a lady with a frying pan would be no realistic match.

 

Similarly it doesn't seem fair to say the darkfriend is a 'terminator'. They are only running from her because she has a weapon and they don't, there's no implication she is stronger or a better fighter than them. And frankly when the boys are listening to her monologue, they seem more confused and concerned than terrified...they could have turned and ran the other way at any point if they actually thought they were about to die. Thom is the only one who seems to take her threat seriously and he kills her. Nothing about that scene screamed 'girl power' to me.

 

Lan appears to find it funny when Nyneave tries to kill him and immediately knocks her out. Yeah she snuck up on a trolloc earlier but they are pretty dumb. The scene with Lan clearly indicates she is not a strong fighter and he is.

 

I'm not saying there aren't changes from the book or that gender roles don't play into some of the changes, but I also think you could write a list (I'm sure someone on the internet has already or will) of how the show doesn't empower women enough. If you go into it looking for ways the show is too feminist, you will find them. If you go in looking for ways the show is not feminist enough, you can also find them.

Edited November 20, 2021 by ForsakenPotato
fixing typos

[TheMountain]

Dana can be very skilled, I have no problem with that. I just think that the scene of her in a dress chasing two fully grown men across town with a bared sword came across as ridiculous and almost comical. Had the writers intended for the scene to be comical and leaned into it instead of being so self-serious, perhaps it could have worked in a "this crazy lady is chasing us waving a sword" Matrim Cauthon antics kind of way. As a serious scene (which would have echoed a similar scene in the books), what would have worked 10x better is some close quarters knife-play, capitalizing on her greater skill and playing to her strengths against Rand's and Mat's weaknesses.

 

It just wasn't believable... but as a fan of the show so far, I realize that not everything is going to be perfect.

Edited November 20, 2021 by TheMountain

[DojoToad]

39 minutes ago, The Purple Ajah said:

It's not a change, but it shows how they've preserved the male authority that's supposedly lacking.

 

I don't know or to laugh or cry that your supposed example of "emasculation" are "woman owns inn" and "woman makes introductions for her family." Wow, so horrible! 

It is a change.  I said earlier that Marin and Bran both owned the inn as a married couple.  But in the books Bran took the lead in the inn as often as Marin did.  In the show he never takes the lead as the co-owner of the inn, or as mayor, or as a member/leader of the town council.  Marin becomes the de facto leader of the town - especially for all those with no book background.  There is no male authority shared or otherwise.

 

This is what comes of having an avowed feminist with an agenda running the show.  Many feared this is what would happen and they have been proven correct.  Was it right or wrong - that is for each individual with their own 'truth' to decide.

[Skipp]

38 minutes ago, ForsakenPotato said:

 

Similarly it doesn't seem fair to say the darkfriend is a 'terminator'. They are only running from her because she has a weapon and they don't, there's no implication she is stronger or a better fighter than them. And frankly when the boys are listening to her monologue, they seem more confused and concerned than terrified...they could have turned and ran the other way at any point if they actually thought they were about to die. Thom is the only one who seems to take her threat seriously and he kills her. Nothing about that scene screamed 'girl power' to me.

 

Funny thing about this, If you are a stranger in a small town and you start fighting with the Local bar keep where other people can see you, what do you think those local people are gonna do?  At best they will subdue Mat and Rand which is perfect for Dana's plan or they will outright riddle them with arrows like the Caged Aiel.

 

 

Edited November 20, 2021 by Skipp
spelling

[The Purple Ajah]

10 minutes ago, DojoToad said:

It is a change.  I said earlier that Marin and Bran both owned the inn as a married couple.  But in the books Bran took the lead in the inn as often as Marin did.  In the show he never takes the lead as the co-owner of the inn, or as mayor, or as a member/leader of the town council.  Marin becomes the de facto leader of the town - especially for all those with no book background.  There is no male authority shared or otherwise.

 

This is what comes of having an avowed feminist with an agenda running the show.  Many feared this is what would happen and they have been proven correct.  Was it right or wrong - that is for each individual with their own 'truth' to decide.

He never takes the lead out of the... like, what, two instances that the innkeepers are actually relevant to the story?

 

There are tons of examples of men having authority. Tam the farmer and blademaster. Padan Fain isn't replaced by some female peddler. The Whitecloaks are all Whitecloaks. I do see legit equality but apparently extremely minor male characters not having enough screen time means that the show is apparently "taking away all male authority, lol".

 

What's happened thanks to an avowed feminist running the show? Certain tertiary characters don't have enough screen time? Oh well.

[Dozer]

This is always my fear of adaptations of our fantasy genre.  In many worlds I have toured in this fantasy realm there was always a mixture of Arthurian times with modern (1980s) power sharing ideals between both men and women.  The greatest aspects of Jordan's writing was the yin-yang of existence that was present in all societies of his world.  From the Queens of Andor to the Lords of Tear and all the Women's Circles and Travelers in between there was always a shared power structure that defined this world in so many ways.  

 

Hopefully, they can realize that we were indeed "woke" in the 80s and need no growth on the greatest epic fantasy ever written.  The ideals represented in the true story will always stand the test of time because it shows that the great one story battle will always be won through common goals and true partnerships between both halves of the world.  

[Agitel]

There was a woman darkfriend in the books. If I remember right she attacked Rand and Mat in the stable. That wasn't made up whole cloth.

 

The Prime Video show page does mention that Bran owns the inn (it doesn't say Marin), but in the show itself we don't see that at all, of course.

[WhiteVeils]

35 minutes ago, DojoToad said:

This is what comes of having an avowed feminist with an agenda running the show.  Many feared this is what would happen and they have been proven correct.  Was it right or wrong - that is for each individual with their own 'truth' to decide.

If the show had Bran running running his inn and had his wife washing dishes and serving tables round back without saying more than an instruction to go serve tables, I'm certain that you would not have said anything.   The comment here says nothing about Rafe being an avowed feminist, and everything about how we are used to seeing women in movies and TV.  Silent and in the background unless pulled out for a specific purpose.

[divica]

40 minutes ago, WhiteVeils said:

If the show had Bran running running his inn and had his wife washing dishes and serving tables round back without saying more than an instruction to go serve tables, I'm certain that you would not have said anything.   The comment here says nothing about Rafe being an avowed feminist, and everything about how we are used to seeing women in movies and TV.  Silent and in the background unless pulled out for a specific purpose.

But the problem here is that the books show us rand's perspective and tam and his friend's roles in the village.

 

On the other hand the show ignored that and decided to show us the female perspective and cut almost all male roles in the village.

 

And we aren't even getting into how Egwene turned into a potential dragon candidate and honestly the main character of the show instead of rand that had so many scenes about his background cut that he his a super bland character.

[MasterAblar]

Raen speeks first not Ila but honestly they haven't even mentioned a seeker for the tinkers. Any non reader isn't gonna think anything of it.

 

Neither Marin nor Bran are particularly promininet. The only who comes across as a leader in Emond's Field is Nyneave. Which makes perfect sense, she's has a far more prominent character than Bran. Literally the only thing I really recall from Marin is her greeting Moiraine. There's nothing weird here. Bran's part was cut from the first book yes (his conversation with Tam, his standing up in front of the crowd) but all of that is understandable from a time perspective.

 

Dana chasing Rand through the streets like that did come across as a little silly, but I don't see any issue other than that. 

 

Rand has scenes cut because if they don't it even more obvious than it already is that he's the Dragon Reborn.

 

Like @ForsakenPotato (what the hell is that name ?) you see what you're looking for.

[divica]

5 minutes ago, MasterAblar said:

Raen speeks first not Ila but honestly they haven't even mentioned a seeker for the tinkers. Any non reader isn't gonna think anything of it.

 

Neither Marin nor Bran are particularly promininet. The only who comes across as a leader in Emond's Field is Nyneave. Which makes perfect sense, she's has a far more prominent character than Bran. Literally the only thing I really recall from Marin is her greeting Moiraine. There's nothing weird here. Bran's part was cut from the first book yes (his conversation with Tam, his standing up in front of the crowd) but all of that is understandable from a time perspective.

 

Dana chasing Rand through the streets like that did come across as a little silly, but I don't see any issue other than that. 

 

Rand has scenes cut because if they don't it even more obvious than it already is that he's the Dragon Reborn.

 

Like @ForsakenPotato (what the hell is that name ?) you see what you're looking for.

But what people are trying to point out is that what as cut/changed are the scenes where men had important roles. The show kept the scenes where the women had important roles and even added more of these scenes.

 

And how is it obvious that rand is the dragon reborn? Egwene is clearly the main character of the younger cast, the more likeable, the one that is show to have access to the one power and is learning how to use it... Rand is her angry pseudo boyfriend that walks around with a sword that he doesn't know how to use and has nothing interesting or special about him in the show.

[TheDreadReader]

19 minutes ago, divica said:

And we aren't even getting into how Egwene turned into a potential dragon candidate and honestly the main character of the show instead of rand that had so many scenes about his background cut that he his a super bland character.

 

Well, that conversation has been done to death at this point on most forums and Rafe has already said in public that book readers already know who the dragon reborn is.

 

 

[divica]

1 minute ago, TheDreadReader said:

 

Well, that conversation has been done to death at this point on most forums and Rafe has already said in public that book readers already know who the dragon reborn is.

 

 

And that makes the changes better? 

Hell, we are talking about a part of the story that is told from rand's perspective and he isn't even the main character of the story so far. It is pretty hard to argue that there aren't huge feminist changes.

 

And personaly, introducing the dragon as the saviour so early was a huge mistake. It makes the show look like a cliche where we will have the chosen one fight the evil lord from the very beguining instead of having a simillar aproach to the books where first the author introduces a lot of things. 

 

[DojoToad]

1 hour ago, The Purple Ajah said:

He never takes the lead out of the... like, what, two instances that the innkeepers are actually relevant to the story?

 

There are tons of examples of men having authority. Tam the farmer and blademaster. Padan Fain isn't replaced by some female peddler. The Whitecloaks are all Whitecloaks. I do see legit equality but apparently extremely minor male characters not having enough screen time means that the show is apparently "taking away all male authority, lol".

 

What's happened thanks to an avowed feminist running the show? Certain tertiary characters don't have enough screen time? Oh well.

Since when does a farmer have authority?

 

Fain not replaced - correct.

 

Whitecloaks are Whitecloaks - correct, but not sure what your point is.

 

My point was some stuff remained the same from books to TV show.  Where there were changes it was women replacing men in all cases.  If you like that, cool.  I didn't, and that should be okay as well.