New clip about the Aes Sedai

[MasterAblar]

6 minutes ago, Maximillion said:

Read this again:

 

 

This is not at all the history that was part of RJ story.

It reads more like a blog post from an ultra feminist.

It's the very type of lecturing I was afraid of when I read about Rafe's motivations and pitch for the series.

 

 

 

Its Aes Sedai propaganda. This is one hundered percent accurate as to how the Aes Sedai would act about the breaking and LTT's actions. Now whether Moiraine specifically would is more questionable.

[SinisterDeath]

2 minutes ago, Maximillion said:

This is not at all the history that was part of RJ story.

It reads more like a blog post from an ultra feminist.

No?
 

4 minutes ago, Maximillion said:

Many, many years ago, men who were born with great power believed they could cage darkness itself...the arrogance.

That actually did happen.
The "100" Male companions rushed off to seal the bore. The other Aes Sedai didn't agree to the plan. They "Rushed" the bore out of arrogance.

 

4 minutes ago, Maximillion said:

When they failed, the seas boiled, mountains were swallowed up, cities burned.

Yea, this is called the breaking. seas boiled, cities burned, mountains collapsed, and new mountains erupted.

 

5 minutes ago, Maximillion said:

and the women of the Aes Sedai were left to pick up the pieces.

This also happened.
Did you forget the Aes Sedai and the Jenn Aiel?
 

5 minutes ago, Maximillion said:

These women remembered one thing above all else. The man who brought the breaking of the world. And him, they named Dragon.

Among the Aes Sedai, he was named "Dragon", as a title/general of the light.

 

6 minutes ago, Maximillion said:

We don't know where, or to whom, if he was reborn as a girl or a boy.

This is the only thing that could be a change, and even this could just be Moiraine = unreliable narrator.

 

7 minutes ago, Maximillion said:

The only thing we know for certain is that this child is coming of age now, and we must find them. Before the dark does.

This is also the entire premise of the EoTW. The forces of the Dark one were hunting the Dragon, via Fain.

[Maximillion]

2 minutes ago, Deadsy said:

 

 

It is an Aes Sedai take on that history. I’d prefer it not be in Moiraine’s voice as she isn’t as biased and ignorant as AS in general, but it’s clear Moiraine knows the Dragon reincarnated must face the Dark One. 

 

There is so much more about that clip that screams of modern day lecturing.

She actually does manage to use the ambiguous pronoun 'them' to describe a single person at the end of the clip, I guess.  So at least she was politically correct then.  Good for her.

 

Edited November 3, 2021 by Maximillion

[Deadsy]

1 minute ago, swollymammoth said:

100 things that don't matter results in a change that matters 

 

 

Not necessarily, and it isn’t possible to glean yet whether there are many changes or whether they change the feel of the story. 

[swollymammoth]

4 minutes ago, Deadsy said:

It is an Aes Sedai take on that history.

If I'd have just read this script and you'd tasked me with identifying whose voice it was, I would have said Elaida. Doesn't sound like Moiraine. Sounds like Red Ajah, although I guess that makes sense since they're the feminists of the WoT world lol

Edited November 3, 2021 by swollymammoth
Sp.

[Deadsy]

1 minute ago, Maximillion said:

 

There is so much more about that clip that screams pf modern day lecture.

She actually does manage to use the ambiguous pronoun 'them' to describe a single person at the end of the clip, I guess.  So at least she was politically correct then.  Good for her.

 

 

 

This is pretty ignorant. “They” and “them” have always been used when gender is unknown. You’re letting your weird obsessions color your perspective on a TV show way too much. 

[Deadsy]

2 minutes ago, swollymammoth said:

If I'd have just read this script and you'd asked me with identifying whose voice it way, I would have said Elaida. Doesn't sound like Moiraine. Sounds like the Red Ajah, which is basically who is in charge of the writer's room. 

 

 

Ridiculous. And I fail to see why making more strife between the Aes Sedai and the others is such a bad thing. 

[swollymammoth]

3 minutes ago, Deadsy said:

 

 

Not necessarily, and it isn’t possible to glean yet whether there are many changes or whether they change the feel of the story. 

True, but every piece of new information we get has leaned into rather than away from the speculation about the series's worldview. They're not doing themselves any favors. 

[Orel P]

*grabs popcorn*

 

To be honest I'm not thrilled about this, I really liked the aspect that the Dragon was explicitly tied to saidin, the Dragon's fang, etc. Added to the doom that came with the name "Dragon." Plus at the very least the prophecies of the Dragon reference Callandor, which is a male sa'angreal. Also the Aiel call him the car'a'carn (chief of chiefs - i.e., male). And if I remember correctly, in The Great Hunt the heroes called by the horn all refer to Rand as Lews Therin and seem to imply (if not outright state) that he is always male. Idk. To me there is a lot of lore in the novels that explicitly tie the Dragon to being male and a saidin user. Sure, they can change this. But that begs the question - why? Just for some lip service in the name of inclusivity? 

 

As disclaimer, yes we are all going to watch regardless and the show should be judged on its own merits. But I'd be lying if I said this didn't leave kind of a bad taste in my mouth

[Maximillion]

4 minutes ago, swollymammoth said:

100 things that don't matter results in a change that matters 

 

Agree

We've only seen clips - by the the time the series is over I won't be surprised to hear 'well what does it matter than Egwene is the DR'

 

[Maximillion]

3 minutes ago, Deadsy said:

 

 

This is pretty ignorant. “They” and “them” have always been used when gender is unknown. You’re letting your weird obsessions color your perspective on a TV show way too much. 

 

 

Er yeah - that was the point.

[Ryan al'Thor]

Just now, Maximillion said:

 

Agree

We've only seen clips - by the the time the series is over I won't be surprised to hear 'well what does it matter than Egwene is the DR'

 

I’m anticipating that as well. “What does it matter as long as someone faces the dark one”, something like that.

[Deadsy]

1 minute ago, Maximillion said:

 

 

Er yeah - that was the point.

 

 

You mentioned she, as in what she was saying, was politically correct. It was the only way to state it. If you are talking about the choice of making it unknown whether the DR is male or female, that makes more sense, but it’s still a non issue. 

[Maximillion]

Just now, Ryan al'Thor said:

I’m anticipating that as well. “What does it matter as long as someone faces the dark one”, something like that.

 

I suspect what will happen is that they will decide later - much later - changing the story so they can keep the reveal till much later.  If they have enough of an audience outside the book fans, they'll make Egwene the Dragon.  If not, they'll just make a decision based on the finances and either can the show or leave it as Rand.

[boldnbeautiful]

4 minutes ago, Deadsy said:

 

 

I haven’t seen evidence that a lot of lore is being destroyed.

 

I think your other concern is more important. I hope they keep the humor and get it right. 

I think it's more disrespectful to think women can't see through this little condescending gesture of the female empowerment.

 

Well here are some issues that need to be addressed as they deviate to the female dragon. I am just stating facts.

• If the show keeps the saidin as tainted, then does the female dragon channel saidin? 
  • If so, how often do female Aes Sedai channel saidin?
  • Do male channelers using saidar as well sometimes?
  • Do female Aes Sedai channeling saidin go mad?
• All prophesis now must reflect a gender neutral language or Moiraine will seem really stupid
• Does Red Ajah now hunt both male and female channelers?
• The female Dragon sounds too much like Arangar who was depicted as hyper sexual predator... not exactly a good example of trans to be honest.
• If this is the ONLY case where a female can channel saidin, then how will Aes Sedai even know that this was the only case?
• How do Aes Sedai justify female membership and leadership since there can be female saidin channelers? 

I think the show tried to be inclusive, but ended up giving troubles than worth. You can certainly approach at different angles to empower women without making an obvious token female dragon possibility.

 

Also, Moiraine/Wise Ones/Sea Folk/Seanchan are going to look really really stupid if all prophesies are not changed to more gender neutral language.  "He Who Comes With The Dawn" will be changed to "A Person Who Comes with The Dawn" or "Ze/They Who Comes With The Dawn".  Whatever the right pronoun is... can't keep up now days.

 

[swollymammoth]

18 minutes ago, MasterAblar said:

All that is is Aes Sedai propaganda.

If this was the show, then you would be right because it would exist in universe. After all, RJ always said that he loved it when characters said things that were wrong because it made the world feel more real. I agree whole heartedly. 

 

However, this is promotional material. The fourth wall is broken. The writers are talking directly to us, the audience, and telling us why we should watch the show, and they're trying to hook us by saying, "This show indulges in man hating! Doesn't that sound like something you would enjoy?" 

 

It's just annoying, and I find it hard to believe that this same attitude won't permeate the story after they've turned it into such a selling point. 

[boldnbeautiful]

"Ze/They Who Comes With The Dawn".

 

"Pick whichever ter'angreal you identify as in Rhuidean" -Amys, Bair, Melaine, and.. that other Dreamwalker I forgot.

[swollymammoth]

6 minutes ago, boldnbeautiful said:

"He Who Comes With The Dawn" will be changed to "A Person Who Comes with The Dawn"

LOLOL I hadn't even thought of this one, but that's amazing. 

[MasterAblar]

19 minutes ago, swollymammoth said:

If this was the show, then you would be right because it would exist in universe. After all, RJ always said that he loved it when characters said things that were wrong because it made the world feel more real. I agree whole heartedly. 

 

However, this is promotional material. The fourth wall is broken. The writers are talking directly to us, the audience, and telling us why we should watch the show, and they're trying to hook us by saying, "This show indulges in man hating! Doesn't that sound like something you would enjoy?" 

 

It's just annoying, and I find it hard to believe that this same attitude won't permeate the story after they've turned it into such a selling point. 

 

I mean I can neither prove nor disprove that because its entirely your opinion of their intentions. Suffice to say there's no way to know but if that were their intentions then it would be remarkably dumb and bad marketing to boot.

Edited November 3, 2021 by MasterAblar

[Deadsy]

14 minutes ago, boldnbeautiful said:

I think it's more disrespectful to think women can't see through this little condescending gesture of the female empowerment.

 

Well here are some issues that need to be addressed as they deviate to the female dragon. I am just stating facts.

• If the show keeps the saidin as tainted, then does the female dragon channel saidin? 
  • If so, how often do female Aes Sedai channel saidin?
  • Do male channelers using saidar as well sometimes?
  • Do female Aes Sedai channeling saidin go mad?
• All prophesis now must reflect a gender neutral language or Moiraine will seem really stupid
• Does Red Ajah now hunt both male and female channelers?
• The female Dragon sounds too much like Arangar who was depicted as hyper sexual predator... not exactly a good example of trans to be honest.
• If this is the ONLY case where a female can channel saidin, then how will Aes Sedai even know that this was the only case?
• How do Aes Sedai justify female membership and leadership since there can be female saidin channelers? 

I think the show tried to be inclusive, but ended up giving troubles than worth. You can certainly approach at different angles to empower women without making an obvious token female dragon possibility.

 

Also, Moiraine/Wise Ones/Sea Folk/Seanchan are going to look really really stupid if all prophesies are not changed to more gender neutral language.  "He Who Comes With The Dawn" will be changed to "A Person Who Comes with The Dawn" or "Ze/They Who Comes With The Dawn".  Whatever the right pronoun is... can't keep up now days.

 

 

 

There will not be a female dragon.
There is no evidence there will be females channeling saidin, or males channeling saidar.

If you think they're going to read out a bunch of prophecies in the show I think you're mistaken, but most of the prophecies in the books do not mention gender.

The Red Ajah hunts male channelers because when they channel they go mad. It's the Black Ajah that wants to hunt down the Dragon Reborn.

There will not be a female dragon

WTF do you keep going on about females channeling saidin. If there WAS a female dragon there is nothing in any of the clips or quotes implying they would be channeling saidin. The prophecies don't mention saidin causing the DR to break the world.

The Aes Sedai can sense the ability to use saidar. If there were females channeling saidin, which there has been no evidence of, they would not sense the ability to channel saidar within them.

He Who Comes with the Dawn is an Aiel prophecy. There is a K Cycle prophecy mentioning "he" coming like the breaking dawn, but again, we aren't going to get a bunch of prophecy quotes in their entirety from the show, or know which bit of prophecies each quote is from.

If you're going to obsess on this, at least be logical about it.

Edited November 3, 2021 by Deadsy

[Deadsy]

6 minutes ago, swollymammoth said:

LOLOL I hadn't even thought of this one, but that's amazing. 

 

 

It's actually pretty stupid since He Who Comes with the Dawn is an Aiel prophecy. We will know who the Dragon is by the time Rand ever hears of it, and Moiraine not knowing Aiel prophecies follows the books.

Edited November 3, 2021 by Deadsy

[MasterAblar]

Personally, I think the most likely explanation is that the prophecies are unclear and that apparently no one is aware that souls are either male or female.

 

Only other explanation to me is that souls have no connection whatsoever to saidin or saidar, nor are they tied to gender. They're just vanilla and can end up any which way.

 

Either way, not very satisfying and seemingly pointless, but I guess we'll find out in a couple weeks ?

[DaddyFinn]

Sometimes I wonder: do we even watch the same clip? Moiraine described the Sealing of the Bore and the Breaking of the world pretty vaguely but also faithfully to how it's described in the books. Men messed up and women cleaned it up in the next few hundred years.

[Maximillion]

17 minutes ago, swollymammoth said:

If this was the show, then you would be right because it would exist in universe. After all, RJ always said that he loved it when characters said things that were wrong because it made the world feel more real. I agree whole heartedly. 

 

However, this is promotional material. The fourth wall is broken. The writers are talking directly to us, the audience, and telling us why we should watch the show, and they're trying to hook us by saying, "This show indulges in man hating! Doesn't that sound like something you would enjoy?" 

 

It's just annoying, and I find it hard to believe that this same attitude won't permeate the story after they've turned it into such a selling point. 

 

That is exactly what that writing was all about.

 

[boldnbeautiful]

Just now, Deadsy said:

most of the prophecies in the books do not mention gender.

No mention of gender?

 

Karaethon Cycle/The Prophesy of the Dragon:

And he who shall be born of the Dawn, born of the Maiden, according to Prophecy,
he shall stretch forth his hands to catch the Shadow,

All Glory be to the Creator, and to the Light, and to he who shall be born again. May the Light save us from him.

Yet one shall be born to face the Shadow,
born once more as he was born before,

 

That's just a small excerpt. It goes on and on with the world "he". You might want to actually read the prophesy before making a claim like that. Moiraine and Aes Sedai will look really stupid when even the Shadow uses a gender specific language.

 

 

One of the Prophesies of the Shadow:

"The man who channels stands alone. He gives his friends for sacrifice. Two roads before him, one to death beyond dying, one to life eternal. Which will he choose? Which will he choose?