A Female Dragon? Examining the Evidence

[Elder_Haman]

5 minutes ago, Maximillion said:

but with this guy in charge of the adaptation

You say this like Rafe has a well-documented history of producing "woke trash". You can quibble with the quality of his previous efforts all you want - but the bottom line is that there's nothing "ultra woke" about "Agents of S.H.I.E.L.D" or "Chuck" which are the two things he's known best for.

 

All of the "this is going to be woke garbage" takes are an argument in search of evidence. 

 

[swollymammoth]

12 minutes ago, Elder_Haman said:

He is decidedly not saying that he is going to "change anything which doesn't agree with his politics". 

This is just where you and I are going to differ then. Because again, what it boils down to are changes being made because he's not comfortable with the subject matter. Where does it stop? It doesn't. This answer is illustrative of Rafe's approach to adaptation and its effects will be as far reaching as if he'd said, "I don't like filming on location," or "I don't like the color blue." 

 

And Rafe isn't just talking about the things you mentioned. He's also talking about "Mars/Venus gender divisions" in WoT. RJ's depiction of male/female dynamics is one of the most unique things about WoT and it was a theme that RJ was immensely interested in exploring. "Updating" WoT in that way is just erasing a part of RJ's fingerprint on the series. Granted, I am of the mindset that something being problematic is not grounds to remove/omit it which is likely the reason for our disagreement. 

 

Note: Having checked, you're right! Rand never marries the women. Here's the exchange with Rafe which my statement was drawing on. You can draw your own conclusions, but it still troubles me. 

 

Q: 

will Rand's romance plot remain close to the books? I mean, liking one girl at first but ending up with three in the end?
Rafe Judkins: 
No. Let's just say that I'm more interested in polyamory than polygamy. 

[Elder_Haman]

2 minutes ago, swollymammoth said:

Where does it stop? It doesn't.

You have literally no evidence for this.

[swollymammoth]

10 minutes ago, king of nowhere said:

your problem is here.

I am reading a lot into what Rafe has said, this is true. I hope I'm wrong, I really do. For now, we're in the speculation stages, and I don't believe that the only opinion I'm allowed to have right now is that I'm just happy we're getting anything at all. Some people are excited, and that's valid. I'm worried, and I think that a lot of people don't understand why someone would feel the way I do. 

[Elder_Haman]

1 minute ago, swollymammoth said:

or now, we're in the speculation stages, and I don't believe that the only opinion I'm allowed to have right now is that I'm just happy we're getting anything at all. Some people are excited, and that's valid. I'm worried, and I think that a lot of people don't understand why someone would feel the way I do.

This is fine!!!

The reason people like me get annoyed isn't that you're worried. I get that. I even understand the reason for your concern. 

 

The issue for many of us is the certainty with which these worries are conveyed. It's almost never, "oh, the prominence of Egwene in the teaser suggests that this show may be going a direction I don't like." Instead it's always, "SEE, Rafe has changed this into the Egwene show!! He doesn't understand anything about the books!!" Or "this three second clip confirms that the characters have been totally changed!"

 

I'm just begging for people who are worried that the show is going to be written as some sort of woke panderfest, to wait for the actual show instead of jumping to the worst possible conclusion that is even vaguely suggested by whatever piece of content is being analyzed. 

 

[Maximillion]

6 minutes ago, swollymammoth said:

I am reading a lot into what Rafe has said, this is true. I hope I'm wrong, I really do. For now, we're in the speculation stages, and I don't believe that the only opinion I'm allowed to have right now is that I'm just happy we're getting anything at all. Some people are excited, and that's valid. I'm worried, and I think that a lot of people don't understand why someone would feel the way I do. 

 

I feel 100% the same. There is always hope, but from the conversation about the pitch, Rafe's comments about changes and right up to the recent major change to the storyline, I think there is cause to be concerned.  Being a realist, though, I think the show will probably be more successful if it is basically a $200m modern day lecture.

[Elder_Haman]

1 minute ago, Maximillion said:

recent major change to the storyline

Which is what, exactly?

[DojoToad]

59 minutes ago, swollymammoth said:

This isn't gonna be RJ's WoT on TV, it's gonna be Rafe's. 

Yes it will be.  But can you wait to see the show before judging it.  I personally think I'll like it even if Rafe brings in changes I don't agree with.  I'll find out in 3 weeks...

[Maximillion]

7 minutes ago, Elder_Haman said:

Which is what, exactly?

The possibility of a female dragon.

I don't buy the misdirection angle.

I think it's a real possibility.

Edited October 28, 2021 by Maximillion

[Elder_Haman]

4 minutes ago, Maximillion said:

The possibility of a female dragon.

I don't buy the misdirection angle.

I doubt they have even decided yet.

This is what I'm talking about. You state AS A FACT that there has been a "major change to the storyline." And then when asked, retreat to "well I think this might be a possibility and I don't buy the alternative explanations."

 

I'll put money on this: Egwene will never be explicitly mentioned as a potential Dragon Reborn and it will be clear by Episode 4 that the Dragon Reborn must be a man that can channel.

Edited October 28, 2021 by Elder_Haman

[DaddyFinn]

7 minutes ago, Elder_Haman said:

Which is what, exactly?

Moiraine said that "the four of you" no wait it's now "the five of you" so that means that souls are not tied to gender and Rand is not the Dragon and Nynaeve is the same age as the rest and Egwene is the Dragon and Rand will be her personal servant and whatever. There's no possible way that Moiraine is messing with the EF5 and newcomers. No way.  It's just pure coincidence that Rand is shown very often when Moiraine narrates of the Dragon.

 

8 minutes ago, DojoToad said:

I'll find out in 3 weeks...

There's no brakes on this train.

[TheMountain]

Highlighted below is the main part of that question and answer that concerned me:

 

Mars/Venus gender division, in other words, "Gender Essentialism" is pretty foundational to the Wheel of Time.

 

Edited October 29, 2021 by TheMountain

[DaddyFinn]

What does the mars/venus mean exactly? Men and women don't understand each other or are just totally different people?

Edited October 29, 2021 by DaddyFinn

[SinisterDeath]

Oh man... I heard Rosamund Pike is going to start each episode reading 15 minutes from the Feminist Woke Handbook! /s

 

"Updating/Adapting" feminist elements from the 90s, to modern ideas, doesn't mean we're going to get a lecture on gender fluidity.

 

It could mean, changing something most fans find annoying, that every strong independent woman that is a leader, is this carbon copy picture of a snobby brat that snifs at you if they don't get there way, and incapable of being wrong.

 

Or the women that are "reasonable" are the ones that wear men's clothing, and act like one of the "boys".

 

That subverting the prince rescues princess trope, isn't subverted by the girls getting rescued when their escape is foiled.

 

It could mean Min always wearing "guy clothes", instead of getting pressured into wearing "girl clothes".

 

It can mean that WT/Aiel punishments don't have to be S&M for kinky guys that like watching women get humiliated.

 

The biggest thing? They could alter the underlying concept of women having to "surrender" to the power, and men have to "fight" to grasp it.

 

There's a lot of subtle changes you can adapt, and it's not going to be a lecture... Unless you make it one.

[Skipp]

5 minutes ago, DaddyFinn said:

What does the mars/venus mean exactly? Men and women don't understand each other or are just totally different people?

Men are from Mars and Women are from Venus.  Popular trope throughout the 80's and 90's

[Elder_Haman]

13 minutes ago, TheMountain said:

Highlighted below is the main part of that question and answer that concerned me:

 

Mars/Venus gender division, in other words, "Gender Essentialism" is pretty foundational to the Wheel of Time.

 

This is but a single data point. Is it significant? Sure. But it’s still only ONE dara point. And one where the response is subject to Twitter’s character limit. 
 

The sensible thing is to watch the first few episodes and then decide whether these “feminist changes” are worthwhile or not. 

[Skipp]

6 minutes ago, DaddyFinn said:

What does the mars/venus mean exactly? Men and women don't understand each other or are just totally different people?

 

https://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/MarsAndVenusGenderContrast

 

" The ways of men are by their very nature incomprehensible to women, and vice versa"

[Beidomon]

2 hours ago, king of nowhere said:

I can agree with that.

But the point stands that a lot of people are saying that they didn't like how the first book is presented. they didn't like how the prologue is incomprehensible until you've read up to book 5, and how it feels very much like LotR.

Several fans are saying it. not casual people, fans. if we, who liked this story enough to post in a forum, still harbor a significant minority of people who didn't like how the first book was introduced, how many other potential fans were lost because they put the book down after 200 pages?

 

And this means, it's probably one of the parts where the books can be improved.

Anybody who wasn’t immediately gripped by the prologue is… well… let’s hope WOTTV isn’t being made for those people. 

[Beidomon]

2 hours ago, Rose said:

 

Yes, if anything, the inclusion of Nynaeve is further proof that she's just being cagey. There's zero way she thinks Nynaeve could be the Dragon. Therefore, that's not what this statement means, and there's a good chance her other statement about one of the 4 is similarly misleading.

 

The truth an Aes Sedai speaks may not be the truth you think you hear.

So again, folks can speculate all they want to try to justify what “moraine” said - but the simple truth is that was a woke PR move. Nothing more. 

[Elder_Haman]

2 minutes ago, Beidomon said:

So again, folks can speculate all they want to try to justify what “moraine” said - but the simple truth is that was a woke PR move. Nothing more. 

I don’t give a fig about the PR. All I care about is the finished product. 

[DaddyFinn]

13 minutes ago, Skipp said:

 

https://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/MarsAndVenusGenderContrast

 

" The ways of men are by their very nature incomprehensible to women, and vice versa"

Hopefully this will be removed or toned down significantly. I hate it in the books.

[Beidomon]

16 minutes ago, SinisterDeath said:

Oh man... I heard Rosamund Pike is going to start each episode reading 15 minutes from the Feminist Woke Handbook! /s

 

"Updating/Adapting" feminist elements from the 90s, to modern ideas, doesn't mean we're going to get a lecture on gender fluidity.

 

It could mean, changing something most fans find annoying, that every strong independent woman that is a leader, is this carbon copy picture of a snobby brat that snifs at you if they don't get there way, and incapable of being wrong.

 

Or the women that are "reasonable" are the ones that wear men's clothing, and act like one of the "boys".

 

That subverting the prince rescues princess trope, isn't subverted by the girls getting rescued when their escape is foiled.

 

It could mean Min always wearing "guy clothes", instead of getting pressured into wearing "girl clothes".

 

It can mean that WT/Aiel punishments don't have to be S&M for kinky guys that like watching women get humiliated.

 

The biggest thing? They could alter the underlying concept of women having to "surrender" to the power, and men have to "fight" to grasp it.

 

There's a lot of subtle changes you can adapt, and it's not going to be a lecture... Unless you make it one.

I think you’re gonna really like Rafe’s take on WOT. Happy for you. 

[Beidomon]

9 minutes ago, Elder_Haman said:

I don’t give a fig about the PR. All I care about is the finished product. 

Right. Until PR starts to subvert the story. Not saying that will happen, or happen badly enough to wreck things. But it might. And Rafe’s just the guy who could do that. 

[Elder_Haman]

Did you find “Chuck” or “Agents of SHIELD” to be examples of Rafe injecting politics into his work? If so, please explain. 

[DaddyFinn]

2 minutes ago, Beidomon said:

Right. Until PR starts to subvert the story. Not saying that will happen, or happen badly enough to wreck things. But it might. And Rafe’s just the guy who could do that. 

We get it. You have serious issues with Rafe's persona. What has he done to you?