A Female Dragon? Examining the Evidence

[Arthellion]

Yes changing the wording of the prophesies is changing the lore, but the lore isn't limited to the prophesies. There is the whole worldview of the people to be considered.

 

No offense but I think we pulled different tensions out of the text of the books. To me the chief tension early on was that "The Dragon Reborn will be a male" therefore, all men are viewed with some measure of suspicion. Men are, ultimately, not to be trusted and women must rule. 

 

Without the Dragon Reborn being male, it lessens the weight of that mistrust. It weakens the gender divide that exists. 

 

Even if the people of  the world don't know all the metaphysics, there is a sense across pretty much all of the world that men are dangerous and untrustworthy. Even good men like Tam have to submit to the "Wisdom" of women. 

 

You say it adds more tension over "whether it will be male or female" and I do agree it can add to that. I can definitely see where it heightens the drama and if executed well could be an okay change. 

 

My concern is that by going that route, it lessens the the systemic and cultural fear/discrimination that men face in WOT. 

[MasterAblar]

There's also the issue of Callandor. Unless they make angreal and sangreal gender neutral, then Callandor is a dead give away that the dragon would be male. 

 

EDIT: Also the eye of the world is full of pure untainted saidin and we know Moiraine has been there at least, so, yeah thats a bit awkward.

 

Feel like this is gonna take a whole lot of editing to not make the Aes Sedai look seriously dumb.

Edited November 3, 2021 by MasterAblar

[SinisterDeath]

2 minutes ago, Arthellion said:

No offense but I think we pulled different tensions out of the text of the books. To me the chief tension early on was that "The Dragon Reborn will be a male" therefore, all men are viewed with some measure of suspicion. Men are, ultimately, not to be trusted and women must rule. 

Men not just the dragon broke the world. Women becoming rulers in randland isn't just because the dragon would be reborn Male.

Also The Aiel Prophecies =/= Karaethon Cycle.

 

4 minutes ago, Arthellion said:

Without the Dragon Reborn being male, it lessens the weight of that mistrust. It weakens the gender divide that exists. 

It doesn't though. There exists a 50% chance a new dragon will go mad and everyone will be doomed, or the dragon would be female and not go mad. The gender divide is still intact.

They still have nations led by women, nations led by men. They still have sub-cultures where women hold power in the home, men hold power in the home, and others were men are still blamed for breaking the world, and others that believe anyone using the one power broke the world.
 

 

6 minutes ago, Arthellion said:

Even if the people of  the world don't know all the metaphysics, there is a sense across pretty much all of the world that men are dangerous and untrustworthy. Even good men like Tam have to submit to the "Wisdom" of women. 

That's not really a thing in the books? These kinds of ideas change between cultures.

The breaking of the world is just the male collective screw up that the collective women haven't let us forget about.

 

7 minutes ago, Arthellion said:

My concern is that by going that route, it lessens the the systemic and cultural fear/discrimination that men face in WOT. 

lol, cause it was soo wide spread in the novels.. Right?
Oh boy....

 

5 minutes ago, MasterAblar said:

There's also the issue of Callandor. Unless they make angreal and sangreal gender neutral, then Callandor is a dead give away that the dragon would be male. 

They don't have to change a thing.

Because Rand is the Dragon.

And if a woman declared her self the dragon, and broke into the Stone of Tear, and attempted to grab it, Guess what? False dragon confirmed.

 

6 minutes ago, MasterAblar said:

Also the eye of the world is full of pure untainted saidin and we know Moiraine has been there at least, so, yeah thats a bit awkward.

Because everyone in the world before those events knew what the eye was?

You do... know that characters & readers don't share the same knowledge...

 

7 minutes ago, MasterAblar said:

Feel like this is gonna take a whole lot of editing to not make the Aes Sedai look seriously dumb.

If this is true to the books, isn't the whole point to make the Aes Sedai look dumb?

[Arthellion]

Yeah Just don't think we'll see eye to eye on this. For what it's worth I hope you're right and they implement this well, but there are key features to me that this undermines. Key features that are important to me in the story and how I understood and a lot of people took it as as well.

 

 

[MasterAblar]

17 minutes ago, SinisterDeath said:

 

They don't have to change a thing.

Because Rand is the Dragon.

And if a woman declared her self the dragon, and broke into the Stone of Tear, and attempted to grab it, Guess what? False dragon confirmed.

 

 

I'd imagine at least 1 Aes Sedai in 3000 years would have examined Callandor and realized, hey, I can't use this thing, must be made for a dude. That's my issue with it. Also no female false dragon was ever mentioned so they'd probably have to introduce that as well.

 

17 minutes ago, SinisterDeath said:

 

 

Because everyone in the world before those events knew what the eye was?

You do... know that characters & readers don't share the same knowledge...

 

 

Moiraine did, thats the point. I don't recall if she was special for having visited the eye of the world or not but either way, plot hole or editing.

 

17 minutes ago, SinisterDeath said:

 

If this is true to the books, isn't the whole point to make the Aes Sedai look dumb?

 

I mean sure the Aes Sedai as a whole don't come off as overly bright (which lets be honest isn't necessarily a good thing, funny as it may be at times). But there is a difference between dumb, and utterly and completely unaware of that presumably very scary person who's gonna show up and maybe, probably, who knows, gonna blow up the world and maybe save it along the way.

 

Don't get me wrong this doesn't prevent the show from being succeful in any way. It doesn't make for a bad story that they don't know whether the DR will be male or female. It just causes a lot of inconsistency with regards to what's in the books. And thats somewhat inevitable when translation books to television since you simply can't keep everything as it is. I'm just worried that they're either gonna change so much that it won't be believable, or not enough and end up with big plot holes.

 

Hopefully they ace it. But unecessary changes worry me.

Edited November 3, 2021 by MasterAblar

[MasterAblar]

9 minutes ago, Arthellion said:

Yeah Just don't think we'll see eye to eye on this. For what it's worth I hope you're right and they implement this well, but there are key features to me that this undermines. Key features that are important to me in the story and how I understood and a lot of people took it as as well.

 

 

 

Agreed, I hope they ace this and this series is fantastic no matter the changes. I just hope they know what they're getting into if they make seemingly unimporant changes that actually clash fairly hard with important aspects of the books.

 

Here's hoping they get it right.

[SinisterDeath]

3 minutes ago, MasterAblar said:

I'd imagine at least 1 Aes Sedai in 3000 years would have examined Callandor and realized, hey, I can't use this thing, must be made for a dude. That's my issue with it. Also no female false dragon was ever mentioned so they'd probably have to introduce that as well.

Lots of information was lost through the ages, much of it on purpose... and correct me if I'm wrong, but wasn't Callandor placed in effectively a field that prevent anyone from actually touching it? And those that placed it there, all died out?

 

 

7 minutes ago, MasterAblar said:

Moiraine did, thats the point. I don't recall if she was special for having visited the eye of the world or not but either way, plot hole or editing.

Had to google this. 
My impression was she found the Greenman twice, and that the Greenman was protecting the eye, not that she had actually be into the well or near it to even examine it. (But it's been YEARS since I've read Newspring!)

"Moiraine explains that many in Tar Valon have attempted to find a way to use the Power in the Eye but as it is untouchable for any woman they failed."

I interpret the above as "They don't know how to use this thing". ? 

13 minutes ago, MasterAblar said:

I mean sure the Aes Sedai as a whole don't come off as overly bright (which lets be honest isn't necessarily a good thing, funny as it may be at times). But there is a difference between dumb, and utterly and completely unaware of that presumably very scary person who's gonna show up and maybe, probably, who knows, gonna blow up the world and maybe save it along the way.

They were pretty unaware that he existed, and when he did, they boxed him up, only making him more likely to blow them all up.

 

14 minutes ago, MasterAblar said:

Don't get me wrong this doesn't prevent the show from being succeful in any way. It doesn't make for a bad story that they don't know whether the DR will be male or female. It just causes a lot of inconsistency with regards to what's in the books. And thats somewhat inevitable when translation books to television since you simply can't keep everything as it is. I'm just worried that they're either gonna change so much that it won't be believable, or not enough and end up with big plot holes.

 

Hopefully they ace it. But unecessary changes worry me.

Any adaption is going to run into issues with consistency, and plot holes, while juggling the dumb demands of producers and ad executives, and then pilling on condensing 15 books into less than 15 seasons.

Adding to the who is the dragon doesn't take away from the plot. EoTW was a little too narrow in it's POV's making the 'who' to obvious for book readers.
Broadening "Could the dragon be a girl?" Doesn't really take away anything. it adds in a small sliver of hope within the world. These aren't massive changes.

True changes would be...
Rand isn't the dragon. Egwene is.

Callandor is a Giant Vibrator.

The White Cloaks have access to anti-aes sedai ter'angrael and have become a dominate foe in randland, wiping out the entire seanchan plotline.

There's only 3 forsaken, and they're all named steve.

Logain is killed by Elaida.

Verin and Moiraine are mreged.

Egwene never becomes Amyrlin

 

Nyneave never marry's lan.

[Tim]

48 minutes ago, Arthellion said:

My concern is that by going that route, it lessens the the systemic and cultural fear/discrimination that men face in WOT. 

Men do not face systemic and cultural fear/discrimination in WOT.

 

Men who can channel do. That’s it.

[Arthellion]

Just now, Tim said:

Men do not face systemic and cultural fear/discrimination in WOT.

 

Men who can channel do. That’s it.

 

Eh. I think it depends on the cultural location.

 

Two Rivers I think is an example of this lightly. Maybe I'm misremembering this, but the Woman's Circle was pretty clearly in charge over the men. The men only held nominal power and it was all expected they would obey the women..even if begrudgingly.

 

Though I suppose this gets into power dynamics/critical race theory/oppressor/oppressive mindsets that I really don't want to touch too terribly much but I would just argue that by nature of the women having power in most places in WoT, men are facing systemic discrimination in WoT. 

 

Men who channel just face it to an extreme level. 

 

 

[DaddyFinn]

55 minutes ago, MasterAblar said:

I just hope they know what they're getting into if they make seemingly unimporant changes that actually clash fairly hard with important aspects of the books.

Have some faith in all the professionals that are working with this show. I'm sure they are much more capable with this stuff than any of us.

[Skipp]

3 minutes ago, DaddyFinn said:

Have some faith in all the professionals that are working with this show. I'm sure they are much more capable with this stuff than any of us.

 

And if they aren't..... well you just don't watch the show and move on with your life.  I am a massive Avatar the Last Airbender fan, love the Legend of Korra but I somehow moved on from the travesty that was "The Last Airbender".

[MasterAblar]

3 minutes ago, DaddyFinn said:

Have some faith in all the professionals that are working with this show. I'm sure they are much more capable with this stuff than any of us.

 

I bet people also said that about shows that went to shit. ?

 

I'm not one to make my mind up before I see the show regardless. As I said elswhere, unecessary changes are what worry me. Changing the lore for no particular reason isn't to my liking is all.

[DaddyFinn]

4 minutes ago, MasterAblar said:

Changing the lore for no particular reason isn't to my liking is all.

We don't know the reasons, do we?

[Arthellion]

47 minutes ago, SinisterDeath said:

True changes would be...
Rand isn't the dragon. Egwene is.

Callandor is a Giant Vibrator.

The White Cloaks have access to anti-aes sedai ter'angrael and have become a dominate foe in randland, wiping out the entire seanchan plotline.

There's only 3 forsaken, and they're all named steve.

Logain is killed by Elaida.

Verin and Moiraine are mreged.

Egwene never becomes Amyrlin

 

Nyneave never marry's lan.

 

I think this is the chief difference here. You're limiting true changes to events that happen...not what has happened.

 

Things could happen exactly the same in the show but without the lore backing it up it won't have the same heart. 

 

 

[mogi68]

1 minute ago, DaddyFinn said:

We don't know the reasons, do we?

 

It's intuitively obvious

[Arthellion]

Marketing. 

[TheMountain]

10 minutes ago, Skipp said:

 

And if they aren't..... well you just don't watch the show and move on with your life.  I am a massive Avatar the Last Airbender fan, love the Legend of Korra but I somehow moved on from the travesty that was "The Last Airbender".

And if it flops like the Last Airbender, the fault, per Shyamalan, will be with our lack of "European sensibilities." ?

[MasterAblar]

5 minutes ago, DaddyFinn said:

We don't know the reasons, do we?

 

No we don't but if you have a valid one I'd love to hear it. Because so far I'll I've heard is "It heighten tensions", which yeah I'm ok with the impending massive destruction and loss of life as far as tension goes.

[SinisterDeath]

3 minutes ago, Arthellion said:

 

I think this is the chief difference here. You're limiting true changes to events that happen...not what has happened.

 

Things could happen exactly the same in the show but without the lore backing it up it won't have the same heart. 

Casting a black actor for a role is hardly a change.
Casting a Male to play a canonically Female character, is far bigger/noticeable change.

Changing a character's sexual orientation to something other than straight when it's never spelled out in the books is hardly a change.
Make Perrin a bear, and changing Faile into a burly dude, is a far bigger change.

 

I have yet to see any changes that are actually going to noticeably change the narrative as a whole.

[TheMountain]

17 minutes ago, DaddyFinn said:

Have some faith in all the professionals that are working with this show. I'm sure they are much more capable with this stuff than any of us.

What about Hollywood's history of adaptations has ever given you that faith?

[Arthellion]

Just now, SinisterDeath said:

Casting a black actor for a role is hardly a change.
Casting a Male to play a canonically Female character, is far bigger/noticeable change.

Changing a character's sexual orientation to something other than straight when it's never spelled out in the books is hardly a change.
Make Perrin a bear, and changing Faile into a burly dude, is a far bigger change.

 

I have yet to see any changes that are actually going to noticeably change the narrative as a whole.

 

The enjoyment of the narrative is heavily dependent on background lore that gives weight to the narrative itself.

 

The narrative can be the exact same but lack the emotional weight.

 

For example you could have the journey of Frodo be exactly the same, but let's say he gets the ring via finding it in a shoebox rather than handed down by Bilbo. In fact let's say that Bilbo doesn't even exist and it was gollum who hid the ring in a shoebox.

 

The narrative journey of Frodo doesn't change at all, but the emotional weight of the moments do.

 

 

[SinisterDeath]

3 minutes ago, Arthellion said:

 

The enjoyment of the narrative is heavily dependent on background lore that gives weight to the narrative itself.

 

The narrative can be the exact same but lack the emotional weight.

 

For example you could have the journey of Frodo be exactly the same, but let's say he gets the ring via finding it in a shoebox rather than handed down by Bilbo. In fact let's say that Bilbo doesn't even exist and it was gollum who hid the ring in a shoebox.

 

The narrative journey of Frodo doesn't change at all, but the emotional weight of the moments do.

 

 

The narrative in the EoTW, is it's obvious Rand is the DR as early as it's obvious he's the main protagonist and we learn about Moiraine's quest?

So what's the emotional weight we're losing?

[Arthellion]

Just now, SinisterDeath said:

The narrative in the EoTW, is it's obvious Rand is the DR.

So what's the emotional weight we're losing?

 

I've already shared in the above. You're losing the tension of men not being trusted. You're losing the discrimination that Rand has to overcome. You lose the unique reasons why men are not trusted.

 

Those things could still exist for sure....but the reason they exist loses it's punch. 

 

You lose the gender essentialism that plays a key theme throughout the series and that Rand overcomes. 

 

 

[DaddyFinn]

9 minutes ago, TheMountain said:

What about Hollywood's history of adaptations has ever given you that faith?

I'm not invested in any other book series than WoT so can't say anything about that. Probably most of them suck.

[SinisterDeath]

5 minutes ago, Arthellion said:

I've already shared in the above. You're losing the tension of men not being trusted. You're losing the discrimination that Rand has to overcome. You lose the unique reasons why men are not trusted.

How is that discrimination lost?

Are male channelers still not to be feared? 

Is a Male Dragon not to be feared?

Do Aes Sedai and Women not put forward that Males destroyed the world?