full book spoilers Season 1 Discussion (Full Book Spoilers)

[ArrylT]

This discussion alone about the scene makes watching the show worthwhile,  such a nice array of perspectives mentioned 

[Harad the White]

7 minutes ago, NightWolf said:

Here's to more sufferi... I

Thanks for including Roose Bolton.

[Katherine]

15 hours ago, AusLeviathan said:

She tackles Lanfear through a doorway knowing that it may cause her to spend the rest of her life as a battery for the Finn, jumping off a cliff would be nothing to her.

 

Again it doesn't matter if he is one of many men, she hasn't confirmed if he is the one, until she does he may as well be the DR to her knowledge and if the DR is gentled then the world is doomed as far as her knowledge so what else matters then keeping him safe until she's confirmed it.

 

To be honest she probably wouldn't have even needed to get down there. Since she thinks he's a possibility that means the Red's actions are actually putting her life in danger (no DR means she and everyone else is as good as dead). The third oath wouldn't have been an issue as a result. She probably could have just hit all of them with a weave of air without any issues.

 

You think she wouldn't? The entire world vs. 5 red sisters breaking the law. I know which side Moiraine would be on.

 Moiraine is extremely single minded and extremely religious in her thinking of the pattern and the wheel. The fact that the red sister was able to catch him and gentle him… I think that’s what disqualified him as the dragon reborn because.. according to her logic… the pattern would not have allowed that to happen. I remember Moraine  believing every circumstance was a part of the pattern and that the wheel weaves as the wheel wills.  That to me seems consistent with her character. Also leaving one man to fight for or five red sisters because she has what she thinks is more important things to do… That is totally what a blue would do. I understand the criticisms of this scene but because of the reasons I just laid out it works for me.

[Maximillion]

1 hour ago, Harad the White said:

Thanks for your opinion. Good thing Amazon didn't agree or the series would be over.

 

 

Well indeed.

If they decided to fill in the glaring plot hole in the scene then the series would be over - or at least some of the party would have died in Episode 2.

Instead, they just left the glaring plot hole as it is and hoped no one would notice.

 

 

[Elder_Haman]

5 minutes ago, Maximillion said:

glaring plot hole

Which "glaring plot hole" are you referring to here?

[Harad the White]

11 minutes ago, Maximillion said:

glaring plot hole

Yours, that is the one you mentioned.

Edited November 24, 2021 by Harad the White

[Maximillion]

5 minutes ago, Elder_Haman said:

Which "glaring plot hole" are you referring to here?

 

 

The one that had already been set in the story that Aes Sedai are unable to lie and then a Questioner not having the smarts to corner Morraine very very easily - as he should have been able to.

The same mistake that BS talked about.

 

Why don't we try it out... you are an Aes Sedai. You are literally not able to lie.  Remember you have sworn your oaths on a Tan'greal, the Oath Rod.  You actually can't lie even if you wanted to.

 

So, 'Are you an Aes Sedai?'

 

 

Edited November 24, 2021 by Maximillion

[swollymammoth]

2 hours ago, Harad the White said:

Amazon's WoT is original AND based on source material.

So is Starship Troopers, and it's a complete and utter betrayal of the original. WoT isn't that, but it does beg the question: How long will you allow yourself to buy into this show as WoT? Is it enough that the characters have the same names and that the world is the same (mostly)? If this is the case, then why is everyone acting like this is the first WoT content we've gotten in nearly a decade when there's been fanfiction consistently released that entire time? 

 

And before you say anything, legal rights mean nothing to me. 

 

This show is, by the very nature of its existence, fan fiction. The thing about fan fiction is that it doesn't have the backing of Word of God to legitimize it, so all deviations are going to be intensely scrutinized in a way they might not be if those same deviations had sprung from the pen of the original creator. This is why Rafe is trying to cover himself by saying that this is how RJ "would" have written WoT if he were still alive. 

 

For fans, existing readers of the book, an adaptation exists on a spectrum from "feels like home" to "Uncanny Valley" to "This is just another thing entirely." For me, WoT sits squarely in the Uncanny Valley. For others, it feels like home, but its nature as an adaptation (thus, at least partly original of necessity) does not shield it from scrutiny regarding the decisions the writers made to change stuff. 

Edited November 24, 2021 by swollymammoth

[Harad the White]

4 minutes ago, Maximillion said:

The one that had already been set in the story that Aes Sedai are unable to lie and then a Questioner not having the smarts to corner Morraine very very easily - as he should have been able to.

The same mistake that BS talked about.

Repetition is the soul of wit.

[Agitel]

As I wrote previously, Valda might think the Three Oaths are a hoax. There was also an insightful comment that we may get more on it, that Valda may have not thought it prudent to openly declare his suspicion to a woman who can shoot fireballs and put her in a position of self-defense, and he may have split from Bornhald to tail the party or set a trap somewhere. Season isn't done yet.

 

"Glaring plot hole" is the overstatement of the year.

[swollymammoth]

3 minutes ago, Agitel said:

Valda might think the Three Oaths are a hoax

Even if he does, what's the harm in asking? Also, these Whitecloaks are apparently capturing, torturing, and killing Aes Sedai all the time. You're telling me they never tested the Three Oaths out? 

 

Just playing devil's advocate. It's not a game-breaking oversight, but it does seem like a bit of an oversight. 

[Agitel]

Just now, swollymammoth said:

Even if he does, what's the harm in asking?

 

A fireball to the face? Tied up with air? Ground erupting beneath his feet?

[Harad the White]

1 minute ago, swollymammoth said:

So is Starship Troopers, and it's a complete and utter betrayal of the original. WoT isn't that, but it does beg the question: How long will you allow yourself to buy into this show as WoT?

I liked Starship Trooper as a movie. Verhoeven knows fascism, in a different way than Heinlein. If you no longer want to "buy into this show as WoT," don't. Then you can criticize it on its own. Sure you're up for that, too.

[Maximillion]

7 minutes ago, Harad the White said:

Repetition is the soul of wit.

 

You are just in denial of the glaring plot hole.

It's just a good example of why some people don't like the show - there is not enough thinking from scene to scene as it speeds through a story, leaving gaps, inconsistencies and/or actions that are not believable enough to draw some in to the story...and the books are not even the issue... I am just talking about the TV show.

 

 

Edited November 24, 2021 by Maximillion

[swollymammoth]

4 minutes ago, Agitel said:

 

A fireball to the face? Tied up with air? Ground erupting beneath his feet?

There it is. Still, they should believe the Three Oaths. Again, I can't believe they haven't tested it out if they've capturing Aes Sedai all the time. Seems like the first thing you'd do. 

[Agitel]

Just now, Maximillion said:

 

You are just in denial of the glaring plot hole.

It's just a good example of why some people don't like the show - there is not enough thinking from scene to scene as it speeds a story, leaving gaps, inconsistencies and/or actions that are not believable enough to draw some in to the story...and the books are not even the issue... I am just talking about the TV show.

 

 

 

Hypothetically, if we did get a scene in the next few episodes that shows Valda had planned an ambush or something along those lines, or otherwise discusses the dangers of pushing the boundaries too far with a conscious Aes Sedai, and the need to be careful with traps, will you please eat your hat?

[Agitel]

1 minute ago, swollymammoth said:

There it is. Still, they should believe the Three Oaths. Again, I can't believe they haven't tested it out if they've capturing Aes Sedai all the time. Seems like the first thing you'd do. 

 

Might be they captured a Black Ajah witch here or there.

[Harad the White]

1 minute ago, Maximillion said:

.and the books are not even the issu

Really? Without the books you would nonetheless be complaining about an Aes Sedai confrontation with the Children? There are any number of explanations given above that pucker that glaring hole.

[Maximillion]

5 minutes ago, swollymammoth said:

There it is. Still, they should believe the Three Oaths. Again, I can't believe they haven't tested it out if they've capturing Aes Sedai all the time. Seems like the first thing you'd do. 

 

Of course it would be - the show makes the Questioners out to be some dumb asses that haven't a clue about the people they are apparently chasing down and trying to kill., instead of an organisation that would have their questioning skills honed over years.  There is no depth at all in the writing or story telling.

Edited November 24, 2021 by Maximillion

[Maximillion]

3 minutes ago, Agitel said:

 

Hypothetically, if we did get a scene in the next few episodes that shows Valda had planned an ambush or something along those lines, or otherwise discusses the dangers of pushing the boundaries too far with a conscious Aes Sedai, and the need to be careful with traps, will you please eat your hat?

 

No, because Valda never even tested her with any probing questions.  He just touched her up like some letch.  If he ambushes them, it's nothing to do with his insight because he doesn't have any.  He's an idiot.

 

 

Edited November 24, 2021 by Maximillion

[Agitel]

Edit: My apologies, that was not charitable, but your hot takes have become just spinning every detail in the worst light possible even if there are alternative explanations available.

Edited November 24, 2021 by Agitel

[swollymammoth]

5 minutes ago, Harad the White said:

Sure you're up for that, too.

Yeah I am. Most of my problems with the show are just that it sucks on its own. The fact that I, as a book reader, have a knowledge of all the ways in which it could have been better by just sticking to the books in certain, mostly obvious ways, only makes those shortcomings that much more frustrating. 

 

That being said, the show is, by the nature of its very existence, fan fiction. Any validity it has then comes from 2 things: 

 

1. How good it is

2. How closely it resembles the original 

 

These are both valid avenues of criticism. Personally, I wouldn't care as much about the second one if they'd gotten the first one right. 

[swollymammoth]

7 minutes ago, Agitel said:

Might be they captured a Black Ajah witch here or there.

Could be. But the writers could have saved themselves a lot of hassle by just not writing something which relies so heavily on the audience making strings of head canon assumptions in order to justify their decision. 

[Agitel]

2 minutes ago, swollymammoth said:

Could be. But the writers could have saved themselves a lot of hassle by just not writing something which relies so heavily on the audience making strings of head canon assumptions in order to justify their decision. 

 

I'll agree with you on this point if they don't revisit the topic this season. I know we'll see White Cloaks again, and per Rafe we'll get a little more insight this season on how they managed to kidnap Aes Sedai, and if the show lasts long enough, even more detail in season three. At the moment, I have my headcannon, yes, but it's also quite possible the show hasn't shown everything it's going to show this season on some topics.

Edited November 24, 2021 by Agitel

[Elder_Haman]

21 minutes ago, Maximillion said:

a Questioner not having the smarts to corner Morraine very very easily - as he should have been able to.

Is this the only explanation for his behavior? Or can you think of another reason why the Questioner might not have wanted to call her out as an Aes Sedai in that particular encounter? 

 

It's not a plot hole. It is a moment that provokes questions. There's a difference.