tv show spoilers S1E7: The Dark Along the Ways

[Gothic Flame]

58 minutes ago, dwn said:

The stoic, enigmatic, loner hero works in some genres--it's common in samurai movies and westerns--but it's an extremely tough sell as in a modern TV show with an ensemble cast.

It served well enough in the books since it takes time to get to know such a hero.

Your focus should have been the three ta'varen and the lack of characterization there. After all, was Perrin's wife somebody you were supposed to care about? Perhaps the better question at this point, was she someone Perrin even remembered? 

[Elder_Haman]

2 minutes ago, Gothic Flame said:

After all, was Perrin's wife somebody you were supposed to care about? Perhaps the better question at this point, was she someone Perrin even remembered? 

No. But we were supposed to care that he axed her. I certainly did. 

And obviously he still remembers her. His entire arc so far has been dealing with the guilt of what he did to her.

[Yojimbo]

10 minutes ago, Gothic Flame said:

 After all, was Perrin's wife somebody you were supposed to care about? Perhaps the better question at this point, was she someone Perrin even remembered? 

which is why (for me) even the implication that he was interested in Egwene makes him look awful. How long ago did he fridge his wife?   It certainly doesn't seem like long enough that he would be ready to move on to someone else.   That whole scene made everyone look pretty bad.

[KakitaOCU]

15 minutes ago, Gothic Flame said:

It served well enough in the books since it takes time to get to know such a hero.

Your focus should have been the three ta'varen and the lack of characterization there. After all, was Perrin's wife somebody you were supposed to care about? Perhaps the better question at this point, was she someone Perrin even remembered? 

It served well enough in the books because he was not a main character.  He was Nynaeve's love interest and got to have a few cool moments while sitting in the background of the important people going about their business.

I found him boring and uninteresting for most of the series until he reaches Ebou Dar.

Laila was not important to us, she is important to Perrin who is important to us.  She'll be a weight on him for the entire series not only making him question is capacity for violence and if it's right or wrong, but also explaining his over-protectiveness for the Falcon later.

 

  

2 minutes ago, Yojimbo said:

which is why (for me) even the implication that he was interested in Egwene makes him look awful. How long ago did he fridge his wife?   It certainly doesn't seem like long enough that he would be ready to move on to someone else.   That whole scene made everyone look pretty bad.

That's not how the scene went.  Nynaeve accidently slipped that she's tired of them acting like she was a prize.  Then Rand points out that Perrin didn't show real interest in Laila until AFTER Rand and Egwene were an item.

This isn't, Perrin lost Laila then started connecting to Egwene.  This was Perrin always had an interest and put it away because she chose someone else.

Now, I don't personally like it, but let's call it what it is, not something else.

Edited December 20, 2021 by KakitaOCU

[Elder_Haman]

2 minutes ago, Yojimbo said:

the implication that he was interested in Egwene makes him look awful. How long ago did he fridge his wife?   It certainly doesn't seem like long enough that he would be ready to move on to someone else.

When did the show imply that he is currently interested in Egwene? There was no implication that he is ready to "move on" or that he has those types of feelings for Egwene. Sometimes I feel like I'm watching a different show from everyone else.

 

[RhienneAgain]

1 hour ago, Ralph said:

 

For sure

 

But we then would find it difficult to relate to his romance with Nynaeve happening so quickly, and to feel invested in it

I think this comes down to individual reaction as I felt invested in their star crossed relationship from the end of tEotW (and it's not like the book uses the benefit of the written medium to show us Lan developing feelings for Nynaeve as we don't get a POV for him). I accept I'm maybe in a minority here though, as I know a lot of book only fans who felt that relationship wasn't developed well.

 

I like that the showrunners have a good chunk of on screen time to Lan and Nynaeve's relationship... I'd just have preferred to see their interactions be more subtle and in character for Lan.

[VooDooNut]

1 minute ago, Elder_Haman said:

When did the show imply that he is currently interested in Egwene? There was no implication that he is ready to "move on" or that he has those types of feelings for Egwene. Sometimes I feel like I'm watching a different show from everyone else.

 

i got the sense he worried over the confusing mess of guilt, sadness, anger, and caring for another woman (even in a platonic sense) so quickly after his wife's death, but no, I don't think there was a single scene were Perrin made puppy dog eyes at Egwene or even hinted at it. I consistently got big brother vibes from him, mostly from the books too.

 

Nynaeve, on the other hand, is great at misreading situations. ?

[RhienneAgain]

1 hour ago, Spiritweaver1 said:

Why does it have to happen so quickly.? Whatever happened to the slow burn,  forbidden love and all that.  To answer my own question I will speculate that the intent is to now play up the Nyn Mo conflict over Lan.  Mo has the close mentally  intimate relationship with Lan that Nyn can only dream of even though they did the deed (way to soon).  Anyway going so fast can take all the anticipation out of it.  Just think about Rand's sword lessons.  The first lesson started the first night out of EF for all of the boys in the books.  Anyway WAFO applies here,

I thought the same at first, but given Moiraine has pretty much given the relationship the greenight I'm not sure how much potential for conflict there will be?

[Elder_Haman]

1 minute ago, VooDooNut said:

i got the sense he worried over the confusing mess of guilt, sadness, anger, and caring for another woman (even in a platonic sense) so quickly after his wife's death

Exactly. He's wracked by guilt. Unable to protect Laila. Unable to protect Egwene. Trauma around the way Laila died complicated by feelings of affection for another woman. It would definitely be a confusing mess of emotion.

[ArrylT]

6 hours ago, Bruan said:

I worded it that way to highlight how drastically different it is being portrayed in the show compared to the books. It’s a huge change, and added for no real reason other than to ‘fix’ the story by rewriting it.

 

Exactly what I mean about different perspectives.   Its very minor and does not bother me in the least from my pov but for you it is different.  For me it is like the difference between a restaurant that has salsa, and another that has guacamole.  

[Yojimbo]

13 minutes ago, Elder_Haman said:

When did the show imply that he is currently interested in Egwene? There was no implication that he is ready to "move on" or that he has those types of feelings for Egwene. Sometimes I feel like I'm watching a different show from everyone else.

 

When Nynaeve said "you two need to stop thinking of her as something you can win."  

[Ralph]

48 minutes ago, Spiritweaver1 said:

Pulls on the the white shawl.  Logically the changes were not "necessary". The whole show is not "necessary".  As you say the team trying to tell Rafe's story is making decisions about how to adapt this story.  Those decisions are informed by factors that we can only speculate on. Logically it is a waste of time to speculate unless somebody has bugged the writers room or there is a mole.  In this case there is no possible way to effectively argue that making Matt a thief in the time of the show opening is necessary.  It was a choice of the team to make Matt a borderline dark friend instead of a scamp. The only thing we can do as viewers is discuss whether we like the changes as we go.  When the whole series is complete and the team's later intentions for Matt have been  revealed then the trial can begin in earnest.   We are basically saying the same thing.  IMHO the arc from carefree scamp to darkened by the dagger, healed  to redeemed is far more compelling than already damaged person, darkened by a dagger, not really healed to who knows what.  

 

Sure. And I'm sure many show fans agree with you. And many probably disagree, including Rafe and his team. 

 

So the fact that you feel it was a bad change is not a reason for you to believe they are just rewriting the story because they want to stamp their own image on it, or to push an agenda.

 

Surely you accept that they feel it would means the show into a better story in a TV medium. You disagree with that, and that is fine

[Elder_Haman]

6 minutes ago, Yojimbo said:

When Nynaeve said "you two need to stop thinking of her as something you can win."  

So Nyn was completely correct in her assessment? Even though she had spent no time with Perrin since she was dragged off by the Trolloc? Even though later in the same episode she as much as admitted she jumped to the wrong conclusion?

Edited December 20, 2021 by Elder_Haman

[dwn]

18 minutes ago, Elder_Haman said:

When did the show imply that [Perrin] is currently interested in Egwene? There was no implication that he is ready to "move on" or that he has those types of feelings for Egwene. Sometimes I feel like I'm watching a different show from everyone else.

 

Yeah, I never got that at all, given that we've seen Perrin and Egwene interact a fair bit. For me, it was clearly telegraphed that Nynaeve was flat-out wrong, and Rand was latching onto the idea to drive everyone away for their own safety.

[RhienneAgain]

47 minutes ago, KakitaOCU said:

There's a slew of variables that aren't being taken into account.  Couple of obvious ones.

First the Simple and obvious:  In the books Mat is a person who plays a prank or two, then yells words in a funny language, then gets corrupted by a dagger, then is a jerk.  This is his entire arc until post healing in book 3.  It is boring, uninteresting, provides no actual development and tells us nothing about this character.

How invested will new viewers be in him?  You're asking him to be a Scrappy.

Second, the less obvious.  How do you get a quality caliber actor to sign on for a nothing spot in the background for 2-3 seasons?   You're not going to succeed unless you find an actor who's a book fan and wants that role specifically and that's not generally how actors work.  

Those are two really casual observations I can throw up.  If I spent time delving in I imagine I'd find more obscure and secondary points that I just don't think about because I'm not a TV producer.

Ok, I can see your points. I think it comes down to seeing book Mat very differently. I enjoyed Mat from the beginning and I think his arc was interesting - typical slightly foolish light-hearted village boy starts spouting battle cries in an ancient language is interesting to me! Then his whole personality does a 180 as he's corrupted by the dagger. I really don't see what is boring about that so I guess this is just personal preference. I think the sad backstory has been really overdone and makes Mat feel more generic.

 

With regards to your second point, I wouldn't say Mat is a background character. By the time we've reached the end of tSR (which I guess will be around season 2-3 of the show) he has:

• Spoken an ancient language that he's never heard spoken;
• Been cursed by a dagger;
• Been put in mortal peril by bring separated from the dagger;
• Blown the fricking Horn of Valere and become linked to it;
• Developed mystical memories of events from hundreds/thousands of years ago;
• Rescued the WonderGirls from the Black Ajah;
• Been trapped in a Bubble of Evil;
• Gone through the twisted ter'angreal;

And even if he really is a background character, it's clearly possible to elevate a character with less page time to one with more screen time successfully (see Moiraine) without changing their fundamental character.

 

I'm not disagreeing with you - just saying other takes on this are valid, too.

[Yojimbo]

1 minute ago, Elder_Haman said:

So Nyn was completely correct in her assessment? Even though later in the same episode she as much as admitted she jumped to the wrong conclusion?

No.  But her comments at that time (wrongly) IMPLIED an interest, and the reactions to it made everyone in the room look bad.

[KakitaOCU]

7 minutes ago, Yojimbo said:

When Nynaeve said "you two need to stop thinking of her as something you can win."  

Which clearly implicates a long standing issue, not something that's cropped up in the past few days they've been together.

Which would fit great with the idea that Perrin had feelings for her, moved on from them when she chose Rand years ago, found Laila.

Then the show happens and he's thrust alone with Egwene, which would make sense for some of those feelings to bubble a little, not because he's suddenly going to pursue her but because the feelings would never have been 100% gone and it's a confusing issue. 

Either way, again, not a new thing where he's moving on from Laila which was your initial statement.

[Bruan]

9 minutes ago, ArrylT said:

 

Exactly what I mean about different perspectives.   Its very minor and does not bother me in the least from my pov but for you it is different.  For me it is like the difference between a restaurant that has salsa, and another that has guacamole.  

well, it is the beginning of it all. The anchor for the characters, the foundation they’re built on. It’s like comparing a house with a full stone basement and a house built on runners on top of sand as being an inconsequential difference... but I guess that’s still just my Perspective.

[Yojimbo]

Just now, KakitaOCU said:

Which clearly implicates a long standing issue, not something that's cropped up in the past few days they've been together.

Which would fit great with the idea that Perrin had feelings for her, moved on from them when she chose Rand years ago, found Laila.

Then the show happens and he's thrust alone with Egwene, which would make sense for some of those feelings to bubble a little, not because he's suddenly going to pursue her but because the feelings would never have been 100% gone and it's a confusing issue. 

Either way, again, not a new thing where he's moving on from Laila which was your initial statement.

I wasn't saying that.  I was saying that Nynaeve's comment implied that there was interest, which would be horrible thing to imply given that his wife's corpse was barely cold.  

[KakitaOCU]

5 minutes ago, dwn said:

Yeah, I never got that at all, given that we've seen Perrin and Egwene interact a fair bit. For me, it was clearly telegraphed that Nynaeve was flat-out wrong, and Rand was latching onto the idea to drive everyone away for their own safety.

Didn't even think about that second point and I should have, since it's clear Rafe is treating books 1-3 as a singular story to adapt.  This fits VERY much with how he acts to Mat and Perrin in TGH.

 

 

3 minutes ago, RhienneAgain said:

With regards to your second point, I wouldn't say Mat is a background character. By the time we've reached the end of tSR (which I guess will be around season 2-3 of the show) he has:

• Spoken an ancient language that he's never heard spoken;
• Been cursed by a dagger;
• Been put in mortal peril by bring separated from the dagger;
• Blown the fricking Horn of Valere and become linked to it;
• Developed mystical memories of events from hundreds/thousands of years ago;
• Rescued the WonderGirls from the Black Ajah;
• Been trapped in a Bubble of Evil;
• Gone through the twisted ter'angreal;

And even if he really is a background character, it's clearly possible to elevate a character with less page time to one with more screen time successfully (see Moiraine) without changing their fundamental character.

 

I'm not disagreeing with you - just saying other takes on this are valid, too.

I don't know that having important things happen to you makes you not a background character.  Look at Lan.  I think it's more the complete lack of focus on him in the first 2 books.  (Does he even have any PoV chapters?)

Also, with bringing Moraine to the big screen they are drawing in New Spring which she is the main character of (Or the deuteragonist at least) Having the advantage of knowing New Spring makes it very easy to flesh her out (And Lan).  Where as all of Mat's development and cool stuff is coming, so you can't draw on that as easily.

No harm in disagreeing, I absolutely feel other takes are valid opinions.  Just debating the point.  ?  As someone else said (And I'm bad with names, so my apologies on being vague)  us all discussing the changes and pro's con's, aspects of them is awesome.

[Elder_Haman]

2 minutes ago, Yojimbo said:

I wasn't saying that.  I was saying that Nynaeve's comment implied that there was interest

 

34 minutes ago, Yojimbo said:

even the implication that he was interested in Egwene makes him look awful. How long ago did he fridge his wife?   It certainly doesn't seem like long enough that he would be ready to move on to someone else.

You were saying that. You were specifically saying that he was 'ready to move on'.

[Yojimbo]

1 minute ago, Elder_Haman said:

 

You were saying that. You were specifically saying that he was 'ready to move on'.

No, I wasn't.   You're free to interpret how you want, but you are wrong. That last sentence was explaining WHY it would be a horrible thing to imply.   

[ArrylT]

5 minutes ago, Bruan said:

well, it is the beginning of it all. The anchor for the characters, the foundation they’re built on. It’s like comparing a house with a full stone basement and a house built on runners on top of sand as being an inconsequential difference... but I guess that’s still just my Perspective.

 

Absolutely.     Simply a case of where perspectives are different.   You've made it respectfully clear that this is something that concerns you.  I dont have anything I can say to alleviate or change that concern, especially as it is not a concern that I have.     I had other concerns about EF that I have since reviewed and made peace with, and hopefully you'll be able to do the same with your concern.  

[Elder_Haman]

39 minutes ago, Yojimbo said:

which is why (for me) even the implication that he was interested in Egwene makes him look awful. How long ago did he fridge his wife?   It certainly doesn't seem like long enough that he would be ready to move on to someone else.   That whole scene made everyone look pretty bad.

Here you say: (1) there was an implication the Perrin was interested in Egwene; (2) it makes Perrin look awful, because (3) he recently killed his wife; and thus (4) he shouldn't be ready to move on to someone else. Therefore (5) he looked pretty bad.

 

I don't understand how I am misinterpreting that.

[Gothic Flame]

34 minutes ago, KakitaOCU said:

It served well enough in the books because he was not a main character.  He was Nynaeve's love interest and got to have a few cool moments while sitting in the background of the important people going about their business.

And yet because we did get to know him well, almost every moment he had in the last book hit hard.

Spoiler

Him taking over the Shienarans after Easar's compromised mind becomes apparent; His "doomed charge" of 6k troops...that became a charge of 100k; his duel with the most powerful forsaken..that gives Rand a rousing cheer against Moridin; ...moments such as these comprises a good deal of the book.

If he wasn't written so well that you didn't know the character then you wouldn't care and such moments would be just wasted filler.