tv show spoilers S1E7: The Dark Along the Ways

[Sabio]

It's just harder in a series becuase you have only so many minutes to devote to each character.  So sadly you get what the early episodes did and almost totally neglect some of the ensemble But this was an issue RJ also had, Rand wasn't in much of Book 3, Perin was almost totally absent in Book 5.  The problem with the series is by neglecting Rand and such, I didn't feel like the Dragon reveal was all that OMG really since you knew so little about him.  Most the clues were left out at the time.  Only at the moment of reveal did they put in the channeling CGI, the fever dream, the Black Wind stuff etc.  So it was all sort of umm ok.  Episode 7 is my favorite but the reveal fell flat (I'm sure some of that was because I had read the books).  But I didn't see it as I did not see that coming type of moment.

[DigificWriter]

11 minutes ago, DaddyFinn said:

Someone said somewhere: Rand is the tabletop and the rest of EF5 are the legs. I like that metaphor. Rand is my favorite character of all fantasy and I'm not worried at all.

 

For the TV adaptation specifically, I think a more accurate metaphor would be that Rand and his friends are highlighted markers on a map being studied by a scholar (Moiraine).

[GSH]

Wish they had scripted even a whisper of Lews Therin Telamon Breaking the World and Kinslaying his Fam early in S1 so non readers could have a glimpse of what the taint had done to corrupt use of the OP and unleash enough magmatic force to move tectonic plates...Instead, we only see Nyn’s tapping into a small trickle of OP potential energy. How are they supposed to wake us all up now? 

[Yojimbo]

1 minute ago, GSH said:

Wish they had scripted even a whisper of Lews Therin Telamon Breaking the World and Kinslaying his Fam early in S1 so non readers could have a glimpse of what the taint had done to corrupt use of the OP and unleash enough magmatic force to move tectonic plates...Instead, we only see Nyn’s tapping into a small trickle of OP potential energy. How are they supposed to wake us all up now? 

Funny thing.  This morning, after hearing me talk about these books for 16+ years, my wife has finally decided to give them a try.  Not because of the show, but because I gave her a synopsis of  EoTW as it was written.   She said that my description sounds a lot more compelling than what they are giving us in the show.  After reading the prologue a few minutes ago she said "now this makes a lot of things make sense!  You get a feeling for who the bad guy is, what the nature of the world is, who the Dragon is and why he is important.  About the cyclical nature of things, and sets the stage for the main conflict."     She said after 3-4 pages she has a better sense of who Rand is than she has gotten from 7 episodes of the show.  

[Elder_Haman]

13 minutes ago, BewareofSnowSnakes said:

Waiting for admin to wipe my account,

Why would we do that?

[Sabio]

14 minutes ago, GSH said:

Wish they had scripted even a whisper of Lews Therin Telamon Breaking the World and Kinslaying his Fam early in S1 so non readers could have a glimpse of what the taint had done to corrupt use of the OP and unleash enough magmatic force to move tectonic plates...Instead, we only see Nyn’s tapping into a small trickle of OP potential energy. How are they supposed to wake us all up now? 

They made that a 4 minute Origin clip of the Breaking of the World.  But I agree that it would have been better had Episode 1 started with the Prologue from the book.

[Elder_Haman]

Just now, BewareofSnowSnakes said:

I requested it. 

Seems a little extreme. Why not just log out? Not sure what happened, but maybe a little time away instead of balefiring your account?

[RhienneAgain]

4 hours ago, notpropaganda73 said:

So my partner's non-book reader perspective:

 

- This was her least favourite episode since number 2. She felt that a lot was happening without much explaining, and was left pretty confused. The cold open she thought was really cool, but she had no idea why she should care. She also didn't really remember any of the Aiel explaining from Thom in ep3. But I think the show really missed a trick by not including some reference to the Dragon being born on the slopes of Dragonmount. I'm not sure the cold open really stuck the landing otherwise. 

- I also don't think the show has done a good job with Fain, his whistling has been way too subtle unless you're a book reader looking out for him. She was confused about the flash of him in the Ways and showing him coming out of the Waygate. I don't think she's connected the dots about him slipping off during the Trolloc raid etc. Hopefully the show gives us the "here's what Fain has been up to" flashback we're assuming is coming. 

- She liked the Ways but thought we'd spend more time there. Was totally freaked out by Machin Shin. She also wants more Loial in general as she likes him, but as I said earlier is pretty confused as to his general function in the story, who the Ogier are etc. 

- When Uno showed up she said "Who's this guy! I like him" haha

- "Why are they all talking to Lan first?" about the Borderlanders

- "I don't like her, she seems shifty" - about Lady Amalisa

- She's really disappointed Mat wasn't around in this episode and is really mad at Moiraine for sending the Red Ajah after him xD

- She loved all the Lan/Nynaeve stuff. Like really really loved it. Probably her favourite part of the whole series. 

- Min's visions, without her knowing anything about the gold ring of Malkier - "Nynaeve getting married!" hahaha. Also "I hope that baby isn't Egwene's". 

- She didn't pick up on any love triangle thing through the show, she actually said Perrin is just a big softy looking after Egwene. But she thought that whole scene, from Moiraine coming in to them to the big fight, was really bad (I agree to be honest). 

- So the big reveal... she thought it was well done, but had two main criticisms. "If his Dad said that in episode 1, shouldn't we have seen him be a bit more sad at some point before now?" (Again, I agree). and "But he's pretty bland, is he really the Dragon? Why does it matter that he was born on that mountain?" Again... agreed. She really loved the scene with Min and Rand though. When Min said "three beautiful women", she said "She likes Rand!" hahaha. I think there's a wee smile from Min in that scene. My partner likes to make big statements off small actions, but she's been pretty bang on so far xD

- My favourite of her reactions was at the end though. When I first watched it I was actually getting a bit annoyed at the thought that they would all go to the Eye. Rand would never allow his friends to be put in danger if he thought he was the Dragon, so I was getting ready to really hate the show if they didn't address that. My partner was the exact same on our re-watch. When Rand knocked on the door she was so angry "Don't be a coward, your friends will die!!" but the classic editing thing of it being a different door caught her. "Oh. Good boy" hahaha. 

 

But, as someone else mentioned, she isn't actually 100% convinced he is the Dragon. I think because the show hasn't really given us any reason to think he is other than the channeling and being from outside the Two Rivers. In this way, I think with the focus shifting to give Rand more character development in S2, I actually think the show can still play on his doubts like in the books. *Especially* if Moiraine survives (I really hope they don't kill her this early), he can say "You said anyone between the DO and Dragon would die, but we both survived, I can't be the Dragon" or something along those lines. 

 

I'm sure I'm forgetting some of her other reactions but as I said, it was one of her least favourite episodes. She has loved the series so far, but I think a lot of the things that worked for book readers in ep7 didn't work for her because the groundwork hasn't been done well enough to make things stick in her mind? 

 

Both very excited for ep 8 though.

Thank you for sharing. I find it really nice to get to find out how non-readers are responding!

[TheDreadReader]

6 minutes ago, Sabio said:

They made that a 4 minute Origin clip of the Breaking of the World.  But I agree that it would have been better had Episode 1 started with the Prologue from the book.

 

I'm waiting for episode 8 before considering if opening with the original prologue would be better.  (The Ravens prologue certainly wouldn't be a better opening that is for sure.)

 

It does make some story structure sense to wait to touch on LTT and the breaking until episode 8.   Everything before episode 7 built up to Rand realizing he is the Dragon and using episode 8 to touch on what that means helps keep things uncluttered.   And, it gives people things to think about/remember while they are waiting for season 2.

 

 

 

[notpropaganda73]

6 minutes ago, RhienneAgain said:

Thank you for sharing. I find it really nice to get to find out how non-readers are responding!

Yeah me too! I try and hunt out non-reader opinions online - my partner is only one person and part of me worries she's humouring me at times. But I think she is genuinely into the show at this point. 

 

Non-reader reactions are so interesting because you can look at what the TV show is doing successfully and what they're not doing well at all, whether we as book readers like it or not. It's sort of hard for me to know whether I like things in the show because it's scratching a Wheel of Time itch for me, or because it's actually good. 

[flinn]

 Of my non-book reader friends.. a few have quit watching, a couple are still watching but give an "eh" opinion of it, and a handful really like it, "I cant get enough of it".. overall pretty divided.

[notpropaganda73]

1 minute ago, flinn said:

 Of my non-book reader friends.. a few have quit watching, a couple are still watching but give an "eh" opinion of it, and a handful really like it, "I cant get enough of it".. overall pretty divided.

Very much like the readers then ?!

[ArrylT]

34 minutes ago, Sabio said:

It's just harder in a series becuase you have only so many minutes to devote to each character.  So sadly you get what the early episodes did and almost totally neglect some of the ensemble But this was an issue RJ also had, Rand wasn't in much of Book 3, Perin was almost totally absent in Book 5.  The problem with the series is by neglecting Rand and such, I didn't feel like the Dragon reveal was all that OMG really since you knew so little about him.  Most the clues were left out at the time.  Only at the moment of reveal did they put in the channeling CGI, the fever dream, the Black Wind stuff etc.  So it was all sort of umm ok.  Episode 7 is my favorite but the reveal fell flat (I'm sure some of that was because I had read the books).  But I didn't see it as I did not see that coming type of moment.

 

I think the intent was that for a lot of the season we were NOT seeing things from Rands POV or obviously not just his.   For example in the scene with Dana, it would be either from Danas POV or fly on the wall.   But I think this was not portrayed in a way that made it obvious.   The show seems to change the POV we're watching as part of their efforts to showcase Unreliable narration.   Another example being Rand & Matt watching Logains procession.  Is that just Mats POV, is it Rands also?    Does it switch from moment to moment?

 

Perhaps one of the reasons they are using this approach is specifically to provoke discussion & theories - since theorizing is a major part of WoT fandom - and we've seen from some non-book reader reactions (like Everyday Negro) that even non book readers are making their own theories.   The show continues to give us things to mull over and decide are we seeing exactly what we think are seeing (Magic for Humans is a great show that shows how even visual evidence can be mistrusted), much like the books would frequently do with things we are reading.   Instead of RAFO it is WAFO but feel free to indulge in your own speculation in the meantime.

 

However not all viewers want to engage in this - I am quite happy to dive back into episodes and re-watch and consider certain scenes - but plenty of viewers simply want to turn off their brains and watch and enjoy.   So for that segment of the audience it is definitely true they could do a better job of making the reveal (and other aspects) a bit easier to follow without having to recall past hints & signs.  Like you said - not every viewer is going to remember the Aiel from Ep3 - or even the reference from Loial in Ep5. 

 

It is always a near impossible task to please everyone when it comes to entertainment.   The show is always going to struggle a little to simplify for a visual medium what are complex nuances from the book.   Hopefully with time & practice this will be improved with each season.   I've already found noticable improvement (for me) as the show has moved forward.

[flinn]

 The person who said "I cant get enough of it" (including his wife), said that after ep.4. They both thought episode 5 was awful, then forgot to watch episode 6 until I reminded them. Ep.5 really was a crap episode for the most part.

[flinn]

^ the real problem with "pov" who sees the channeling is they completely broke the rules in Ep 4 so everyone could see Logain channeling. That has confused a lot of the non-book readers I have talked to... why didnt we see him channeling when we saw the other guy channeling.. even Everyday Negros were really confused about that aspect.

 

 I have always said to the bafflement of my friends who aren't readers, especially not fantasy readers...

 

 I want my fantasy to be realistic.. yes I understand why that is confusing, but even fantasy has rules. You build a world and you create the rules, once you make a rule, you don't get to change it to fit a plot you cant figure out how to write properly.

[DigificWriter]

In the visual medium, edit or camera trickery is a common storytelling device, and it makes little sense to complain about its use.

 

WoT isn't the first film or TV series to revisit earlier events from a slightly different angle and showcase things the second time around that weren't highlighted the first time, nor will it be the last.

[Yojimbo]

7 minutes ago, flinn said:

^ the real problem with "pov" who sees the channeling is they completely broke the rules in Ep 4 so everyone could see Logain channeling. That has confused a lot of the non-book readers I have talked to... why didnt we see him channeling when we saw the other guy channeling.. even Everyday Negros were really confused about that aspect.

 

 I have always said to the bafflement of my friends who aren't readers, especially not fantasy readers...

 

 I want my fantasy to be realistic.. yes I understand why that is confusing, but even fantasy has rules. You build a world and you create the rules, once you make a rule, you don't get to change it to fit a plot you cant figure out how to write properly.

That's why the reveal of Rand is a cheap trick (IMO).  I actually predicted that this is how they would do it.   It really was the only way because they decided to do the whole "who is the DR?" storyline.   Showing Logain channel, showing all the women channelling, but NOT showing Rand channel wasn't so much misdirection, but directly lying to the audience.  It felt insulting even though I knew it was coming.    

[notpropaganda73]

6 minutes ago, Yojimbo said:

That's why the reveal of Rand is a cheap trick (IMO).  I actually predicted that this is how they would do it.   It really was the only way because they decided to do the whole "who is the DR?" storyline.   Showing Logain channel, showing all the women channelling, but NOT showing Rand channel wasn't so much misdirection, but directly lying to the audience.  It felt insulting even though I knew it was coming.    

Yes, there was a review (I think it's called ArsTechnica?) that talked about the reveal being a cheap trick, but not for the reason you describe. They said that only showing us Tam's fever dream now is unfair, the point of a mystery is laying out the clues and allowing the audience to try and figure it out. If you only reveal key clues at the same moment as revealing who it is, it's simply cheating the audience out of the mystery in the first place. 

 

I must say as much as I enjoyed the reveal finally happening, they really didn't need to hold back Tam's dream until now imo and it would have added much more to the reveal if they had included it earlier and had shown Rand to be grappling with his identity more. 

[Gothic Flame]

4 minutes ago, Yojimbo said:

That's why the reveal of Rand is a cheap trick (IMO).  I actually predicted that this is how they would do it.   It really was the only way because they decided to do the whole "who is the DR?" storyline.   Showing Logain channel, showing all the women channelling, but NOT showing Rand channel wasn't so much misdirection, but directly lying to the audience.  It felt insulting even though I knew it was coming.    

It was such a built up moment, there should have been a big "Wow!" there instead of a cheap "oh...that's it? Huh..ok."

[Gothic Flame]

17 minutes ago, notpropaganda73 said:

Yes, there was a review (I think it's called ArsTechnica?) that talked about the reveal being a cheap trick, but not for the reason you describe. 

Arstechnica also used the word "cheated

[Mirefox]

There is obviously a whole lot of discussion and a whole lot of disagreement about this show.  I fall into the camp who feels like it is an absolute gut punch and bastardization of a long-beloved and finely-crafted story.  But I also know I can’t argue with other peoples’ subjective reactions to the show.

 

That said, I really do not understand all the people who are treating Rafe like some sort or reincarnation of Orson Welles with Robert Jordan’s brain and who expect all these puzzle pieces to fall into place in the last episode like some early Shaymalan movie.  All the mental gymnastics at this site to justify changes that have been made coupled with countless admonitions to WAFO are exhausting.

 

I am truly happy that the boom readers who are enjoying the show are feeling fulfilled.  But can we not separate subjective enjoyment for the objectively loose handling of the characters and lore we all love?  I’m not out there telling people not to enjoy the show so why do the people who enjoy it feel that we need to jumbo to hoops to explain how everything will make perfect sense when the stars all align.

 

I’d be happy to be proven wrong for everything so suddenly gel into some masterpiece but when it walks like a duck, and all that…

[DaddyFinn]

46 minutes ago, Yojimbo said:

Showing Logain channel, showing all the women channelling, but NOT showing Rand channel wasn't so much misdirection, but directly lying to the audience.  It felt insulting even though I knew it was coming.    

We didn't see Rand channeling in his POV in the first book until the end. He had no idea what was happening

[EmreY]

24 minutes ago, Mirefox said:

I am truly happy that the boom readers who are enjoying the show are feeling fulfilled.  But can we not separate subjective enjoyment for the objectively loose handling of the characters and lore we all love?  I’m not out there telling people not to enjoy the show so why do the people who enjoy it feel that we need to jumbo to hoops to explain how everything will make perfect sense when the stars all align.

 

 

I love the first bit about Rafe, but regarding this comment of yours... do we really all love the books? 

 

Hold your horses.  I bought the books when they came out because I'm nuts about fantasy.  I also gave up around about Book 10, and not because it was becoming obvious we might never get a conclusion.

 

I think it might be fairer to suggest that for some people who do love the books, this experience will be distressing.  I sympathise, but spoiler warning: it's going to get worse.  There are perhaps entire books or hordes of secondary characters that might not appear or be only very slightly referenced.

 

It might also be fair to suggest that some people found it impossible to get through the books, because just as Rafe might not be Orson Welles, so RJ might not be Tolstoy.  And then there are some of us who are ambivalent-to-positive about the books and still are enjoying most of what we're seeing.  For these people, this Cliff notes-at-second hand might actually be quite fun, and the critiques we will make will be about the TV series as a TV series, not because it is or is not faithful to the books.

Edited December 19, 2021 by EmreY

[notpropaganda73]

40 minutes ago, Mirefox said:

There is obviously a whole lot of discussion and a whole lot of disagreement about this show.  I fall into the camp who feels like it is an absolute gut punch and bastardization of a long-beloved and finely-crafted story.  But I also know I can’t argue with other peoples’ subjective reactions to the show.

 

That said, I really do not understand all the people who are treating Rafe like some sort or reincarnation of Orson Welles with Robert Jordan’s brain and who expect all these puzzle pieces to fall into place in the last episode like some early Shaymalan movie.  All the mental gymnastics at this site to justify changes that have been made coupled with countless admonitions to WAFO are exhausting.

 

I am truly happy that the boom readers who are enjoying the show are feeling fulfilled.  But can we not separate subjective enjoyment for the objectively loose handling of the characters and lore we all love?  I’m not out there telling people not to enjoy the show so why do the people who enjoy it feel that we need to jumbo to hoops to explain how everything will make perfect sense when the stars all align.

 

I’d be happy to be proven wrong for everything so suddenly gel into some masterpiece but when it walks like a duck, and all that…

 

You're not telling people not to enjoy the show, but you are telling us to stop jumping through hoops to justify things - is it so hard to imagine that we are not jumping through any hoops or performing any mental gymnastics, but are simply enjoying the show and coming up with ideas and suggestions for what direction the show might go in? 

 

Honestly, why the hyperbole? Who is saying Rafe is some sort of genius? Why is that the leap you make when people are just saying "Maybe this is what they're trying to do here" or "I expect/hope we'll see that in coming seasons" or "I can understand why they've shifted focus for this first season". You talk about separating the objective from the subjective but the whole reason there was a WoT fandom that was so active online for years is because the books themselves are not some objective truth, people debated about things for literal decades, even when Robert Jordan would tell us otherwise. 

 

Form my POV, being constantly told that it's the "Rafe of Time" or "This is Rafe's story, it's not even Wheel of Time" is exhausting. I much prefer talking about criticisms and problems with the show and teasing out why it doesn't work or how they might fix it going forward. But, honestly, it feels like my criticism aren't valid to many unless I'm also upset about Nynaeve or Lan or whatever else. So yeah, the exhaustion goes both ways. 

[dwn]

I'm watching it with three casual book readers, and we all roughly agree that it's pretty good. Not mind-blowing, but well above the quality threshold most fantasy adaptations struggle to reach. Sure, plot details are different, but the overall shape of the story is there. Likewise with the characters--exaggerated here and there, which is often the case for TV, but true to their personalities and roles in the books.