tv show spoilers S1E7: The Dark Along the Ways

[Yojimbo]

1 hour ago, Wolfbrother31 said:

 

I don't trust the reddit breakdown. No, no, no ...no way that Perrin, Matt, and Rand had equal focus/lines as Egwene and Nynaeve through the first 7 episodes

 

 

And another thought ... If my hot hot take is correct (see predictions thread) and 

  Reveal hidden contents

Moiraine dies/disappears in the season finale

 

then the focus on the ladies is 1000% justified & all us complainers can eat crow!?

The thing about that Reddit breakdown is that even if the numbers are correct, it's not a positive thing, because even if Rand has been on screen as much as any other character, he's not very memorable.   The actor just doesn't seem to have much if any screen presence.   Neither does the actor playing Perrin for that matter.   They may keep the focus on the women more even now because you really can't have the main character (Rand) be someone the audience doesn't find compelling to watch.   I know that's now my wife feels.   She guessed it was him after the first episode (technically during the watching of the 2nd ep) and to this day doesn't feel any connection to him at all.   

[themann1086]

17 minutes ago, divica said:

Nobody that hasn't read the books believes that rand is the dragon

I mean other than literally everyone I'm watching with, who all immediately started razzing me "of course you like a series where a tall awkward redhead is the Chosen One". Rude! I mean partly true, but still, rude!

[divica]

5 minutes ago, Yojimbo said:

The thing about that Reddit breakdown is that even if the numbers are correct, it's not a positive thing, because even if Rand has been on screen as much as any other character, he's not very memorable.   The actor just doesn't seem to have much if any screen presence.   Neither does the actor playing Perrin for that matter.   They may keep the focus on the women more even now because you really can't have the main character (Rand) be someone the audience doesn't find compelling to watch.   I know that's now my wife feels.   She guessed it was him after the first episode (technically during the watching of the 2nd ep) and to this day doesn't feel any connection to him at all.   

How can he be memorable or relatable when he doesn't have a story? I don't think you can blame the actor when all his big moments were about his relationship with eg...

He had his moments in ep3 and besides that he is the moopy boyfriend that has no interesting quality or story or growth or shiny/heroic moments. 

It is much easier to relate to lan than to either him or perrin and that shouldn't be the case! 

[DigificWriter]

34 minutes ago, divica said:

who wants to see the second season when you don't like the main character?

 

Rand isn't the primary main character of the TV adaptation; Moiraine is... and that's not going to change just because he's been revealed to be the person she's been trying to find for 20 years.

[Skipp]

I do think they will move the focus off of Moiraine in the coming seasons.  Whether that be two or three but I do believe it will happen. 

[DigificWriter]

9 minutes ago, Skipp said:

I do think they will move the focus off of Moiraine in the coming seasons.  Whether that be two or three but I do believe it will happen. 

 

I don't.

 

People keep trying to make comparisons between Moiraine being the focus of the TV adaptation of WoT and Ned Stark being the focus of the first season of Game of Thrones, but the two scenarios are not even remotely similar.

 

The series with the most similarities to what is happening with the WoT TV series are Titans, Swamp Thing, and The Shannara Chronicles.

Edited December 19, 2021 by DigificWriter

[VooDooNut]

16 minutes ago, Skipp said:

I do think they will move the focus off of Moiraine in the coming seasons.  Whether that be two or three but I do believe it will happen. 

I think they will too. Both because the story naturally flows in that direction eventually, and the rest of the cast has a lot of growing up to do without Moiraine. I'll miss her though.

[Skipp]

10 minutes ago, DigificWriter said:

 

I don't.

 

People keep trying to make comparisons between Moiraine being the focus of the TV adaptation of WoT and Ned Stark being the focus of the first season of Game of Thrones, but the two scenarios are not even remotely similar.

 

The series with the most similarities to what is happening with the WoT TV series are Titans, Swamp Thing, and The Shannara Chronicles.

I don't think they will change the focus because of Ned Stark and GoT.  I think they will change focus because Moiraine's role should decrease while the EF5 + Elyane's increase.  Just due to the nature of the story.

 

Not that I think Moiraine will have a substantial drop in screentime but just less than what we are seeing in season 1 and maybe 2.

[DigificWriter]

10 minutes ago, Skipp said:

I don't think they will change the focus because of Ned Stark and GoT.  I think they will change focus because Moiraine's role should decrease while the EF5 + Elyane's increase.  Just due to the nature of the story.

 

Not that I think Moiraine will have a substantial drop in screentime but just less than what we are seeing in season 1 and maybe 2.

 

I honestly believe that the amount of content and story focus that Moiraine has in the novels is irrelevant when it comes to her having been positioned as the primary main character of the TV adaptation, and that, barring Rosamund Pike permanently departing the series, her (Moiraine's) perspective of and participation in events will remain a significant and centralized point of narrative emphasis even as other characters' stories ebb and flow.

Edited December 19, 2021 by DigificWriter

[VooDooNut]

Guess we'll just have to see what happens. ? good ol' WAFO

[notpropaganda73]

10 hours ago, divica said:

I don't understand why the show turned egwene into this badass mary sue hero that can do no wrong and everybody is in love with. I don't even get why rand had to apologize so much to her in this ep...

Some of her lines should have gone to rand in order to give him a personality that people could get interested in. Because until the last 10 mins of this ep he was eg's boyfriend that was mopping the entire season and then they decided to make a info dump and make him the dragon without spending any time developing his character.

 

I don't get this...

 

Honestly I don't understand how anyone thinks Egwene is a badass from watching the show. It's so interesting to read such strong perspectives in completely opposite directions haha. Egwene comes off as an entitled know-it-all, not only to me (with a bias from the books), but also to my partner who hasn't read anything. I don't know if it's the actress or if they are writing her this way and the actress is nailing it, but we both feel that she's just annoying (In fairness Egwene is definitely annoying in the books, at least for me this early on). Her chat with Aram when they were with the Tinkers, as they stared off at the stars, it was just eye-rollingly boring. The way In the most recent episode as well, but my partner kept saying "oh god she better not be the Dragon" nearly every time she had any dialogue. 

 

I knew the Dragon was going to be revealed this episode so I asked my partner for her theory and she stuck with the "All 5 of them are the Dragon" and then went: 1. Nynaeve 2. Perrin 3. Mat 4. Rand 5. Egwene. It's anecdotal but there's at least one person in the world that thought the lads would be the Dragon ahead of Egwene *shrug*

 

We find her so so annoying ha. I will agree that she took Perrin's big moment, that scene would have worked a lot better if she channelled to free him and then Perrin attacked Valda imo. But I don't see that as making Egwene some incredible badass. The Rand apologising scene... I mean everyone I've talked to about that scene has said Egwene was being really petulant? I totally understand annoyance with Rand's (lack of) development, it's been annoying me too. But I just don't see it as a "let's reduce Rand's role because men suck" motivation, which seems to be the thrust of a lot of criticism. 

[notpropaganda73]

So my partner's non-book reader perspective:

 

- This was her least favourite episode since number 2. She felt that a lot was happening without much explaining, and was left pretty confused. The cold open she thought was really cool, but she had no idea why she should care. She also didn't really remember any of the Aiel explaining from Thom in ep3. But I think the show really missed a trick by not including some reference to the Dragon being born on the slopes of Dragonmount. I'm not sure the cold open really stuck the landing otherwise. 

- I also don't think the show has done a good job with Fain, his whistling has been way too subtle unless you're a book reader looking out for him. She was confused about the flash of him in the Ways and showing him coming out of the Waygate. I don't think she's connected the dots about him slipping off during the Trolloc raid etc. Hopefully the show gives us the "here's what Fain has been up to" flashback we're assuming is coming. 

- She liked the Ways but thought we'd spend more time there. Was totally freaked out by Machin Shin. She also wants more Loial in general as she likes him, but as I said earlier is pretty confused as to his general function in the story, who the Ogier are etc. 

- When Uno showed up she said "Who's this guy! I like him" haha

- "Why are they all talking to Lan first?" about the Borderlanders

- "I don't like her, she seems shifty" - about Lady Amalisa

- She's really disappointed Mat wasn't around in this episode and is really mad at Moiraine for sending the Red Ajah after him xD

- She loved all the Lan/Nynaeve stuff. Like really really loved it. Probably her favourite part of the whole series. 

- Min's visions, without her knowing anything about the gold ring of Malkier - "Nynaeve getting married!" hahaha. Also "I hope that baby isn't Egwene's". 

- She didn't pick up on any love triangle thing through the show, she actually said Perrin is just a big softy looking after Egwene. But she thought that whole scene, from Moiraine coming in to them to the big fight, was really bad (I agree to be honest). 

- So the big reveal... she thought it was well done, but had two main criticisms. "If his Dad said that in episode 1, shouldn't we have seen him be a bit more sad at some point before now?" (Again, I agree). and "But he's pretty bland, is he really the Dragon? Why does it matter that he was born on that mountain?" Again... agreed. She really loved the scene with Min and Rand though. When Min said "three beautiful women", she said "She likes Rand!" hahaha. I think there's a wee smile from Min in that scene. My partner likes to make big statements off small actions, but she's been pretty bang on so far xD

- My favourite of her reactions was at the end though. When I first watched it I was actually getting a bit annoyed at the thought that they would all go to the Eye. Rand would never allow his friends to be put in danger if he thought he was the Dragon, so I was getting ready to really hate the show if they didn't address that. My partner was the exact same on our re-watch. When Rand knocked on the door she was so angry "Don't be a coward, your friends will die!!" but the classic editing thing of it being a different door caught her. "Oh. Good boy" hahaha. 

 

But, as someone else mentioned, she isn't actually 100% convinced he is the Dragon. I think because the show hasn't really given us any reason to think he is other than the channeling and being from outside the Two Rivers. In this way, I think with the focus shifting to give Rand more character development in S2, I actually think the show can still play on his doubts like in the books. *Especially* if Moiraine survives (I really hope they don't kill her this early), he can say "You said anyone between the DO and Dragon would die, but we both survived, I can't be the Dragon" or something along those lines. 

 

I'm sure I'm forgetting some of her other reactions but as I said, it was one of her least favourite episodes. She has loved the series so far, but I think a lot of the things that worked for book readers in ep7 didn't work for her because the groundwork hasn't been done well enough to make things stick in her mind? 

 

Both very excited for ep 8 though.

[bringbackthomsmoustache]

6 hours ago, bkwrm79 said:

2. Battle in the snow.  I thought the books went overboard in making the Aiel super-warriors, the show dialed that up several more notches.

Gaul defeats several whitecloaks unarmed while cramped and dehydrated from being locked in a gallows cage for a considerable time - after he and one other Aiel were defeated by two expert fighters and several minions who caught them by surprise.  Roughly equal to what is shown in the open.

[LoRd PyrO]

The LOTR was able to follow the books so closely, why the hell can't WOT follow suit ???!!

[MasterAblar]

7 hours ago, Mailman said:

We get lots of references that the womans circle gets there way on most occasions

 

 

References yes but compare that to the village council which is directly shown leading, making decisions, wielding power.

 

7 hours ago, Mailman said:

 

a ship captain as male in a profession that would be almost entirely male is not a great surprise

 

 

The Sea Folk would have something to say about that but regardless that's not the point, the point is that is what the 1st book shows, a man in a position of power. 

 

7 hours ago, Mailman said:

Tuathan maybe but its more of a collective than anything else

 

 

 

I don't disagree but the same could be said in the show. Regardless Raen is still clearly making decision for them, holding power.

 

7 hours ago, Mailman said:

Whitecloaks an entirely male solely military body and you are expecting a female leader. 

 

 

 

Yes absolutely, but that is nonetheless the exemple of power the book chooses to show. I am not expecting a female leader in this situation, I am sayint that the situation the book chooses to present is one with a man wielding power.

 

7 hours ago, Mailman said:

Morgase is far more important than all those characters combined (excluding Ishy as the bad guy).

And you forget that the driving force behind the whole first book is Moiraine who is a immense presence throughout the book intelligent, focussed and ruthless. All traits that have been seriously diminished in the TV show.

 

 

I agree Morgase holds more power than all those others put together. However that's still just 1 person, and she's only shown for half a chapter. And she's not present in the show.

 

Personally I see Moiraine more as a guide for the main party than a person holding power. I'd compare her more to Elyas or even Thom. She leads to party yes but she doesn't hold a position of structural power like a Queen, General, Mayor, Lord, etc. But sure you could include although in that case I would argue Elyas and even Lan command at times.

 

This isn't criticism of the book to be clear. One could argue the plot lends itself to showing more men than women in the first book. But nonetheless in terms of quantity the book presents far more exemples of men holding power than women, and for a TV show which is quite intentionally meant to shift things to a more female centric setting (at least in some aspects), it would have come across as rather contradictory. Even though yes it would certainly be adjusted in the following seasons.

[EmreY]

52 minutes ago, LoRd PyrO said:

The LOTR was able to follow the books so closely, why the hell can't WOT follow suit ???!!

 

1. Because Tolkien's books are deliberately much less complicated in terms of a) motivation, b) number of secondary characters, c) character interactions and d) the author doesn't play games with POVs.  WoT is impossible to translate without about one-and-a-half the amount of screentime per page.

 

Fellowship of the Ring (extended edition) runs to 240ish minutes; the book is about 420 pages.

EotW is about 780 pages and would need about 660 minutes - or 11, more likely 12 episodes at 55-60 minutes each - and that would probably give it more of the RJ feel.

 

2. There are those of us who do not believe that the second and third films followed Tolkien closely.  There are major things that are just plain wrong, major setpieces that are degraded, etc.  However, we have made our peace with it.

 

....

 

There are other series - eg Earthsea - whose translation to the screen were abominations.  I just don't watch it again, indeed I've succeeded in rubbing my mind clean of it.  And there are others - eg Foundation - which from what I have seen have no more than a vague resemblance to the books, which look good, and which I will perhaps watch without worrying at all about their lack of faithfulness.

Edited December 19, 2021 by EmreY

[DaddyFinn]

57 minutes ago, LoRd PyrO said:

The LOTR was able to follow the books so closely, why the hell can't WOT follow suit ???!!

LotR is a simple and short story compared to WoT. The movies had much larger budget per minute. Movie and TV are not the same.

[EmreY]

Just realised something... why TV Rand is reading the Prophecies in Episode 5.  Awww.

[RhienneAgain]

14 hours ago, BewareofSnowSnakes said:

Yes, I read your post when you first made it. It compelled me to examine my feelings on the scene. And though I ultimately came to a different conclusion, I agree that your point is valid.

 

With regard to criticism arising from personal preference rather than gender considerations—I understand and am appreciative of this approach. My post was in response to suggestions that these scenes were intended to elevate women at the expense of men. I tend to think that the men will have their impressive moments, too, and that we have this to look forward to. I would prefer to watch without keeping score, if that makes sense.

Completely. This is what I really enjoy about discussing the books and shows here - seeing how the same characters and scenes can resonate so differently with different people, and trying to understand where that comes from.

 

I guess no one apart from the the people making the show can really know what the intention is behind the changes made. It certainly seems that a lot of people are picking up the gender dynamics being altered so it seems like a genuine issue/decision with the show. I think it's fascinating that some people see it as positive while others are reacting more negatively to it. 

 

I'm not feeling particularly strongly either way on that particular point. I'm just finding some of the 'awesome moments' a bit silly looking (I haven't enjoyed the visuals linked to Nynaeve's use of the one power, for example, finding them over the top for this early stage in the series and her development). Similarly with the Tigraine scene, I felt it was overdone to the point of spoiling my immersion. Interesting to reflect on whether I have subconsciously set the bar for these things differently for male and female characters. My gut feeling is that no, it's down to disliking the show execution (as I loved book scenes like Nynaeve balefiring the Mydraal) but I guess it's hard to pick up on your own biases.

[Mirefox]

2 hours ago, LoRd PyrO said:

The LOTR was able to follow the books so closely, why the hell can't WOT follow suit ???!!

LotR is seen as very faithful to the source material because Peter Jackson was immensely concerned with both fidelity to the source and and internal visual and story consistency.  There were certainly changes made for the movie adaptation and there was plenty of negative reaction at the time but almost all of the changes can be chalked up to the adaptation process.  While this is something that the more fervent show defenders try to claim is the reason, it really doesn’t account for all the changes.  Sadly, Rafe decided to use WoT to tell his own story and as a way to experiment with his own social ideas.  Nobody asked for WoT as a platform for the director to experiment with, but it’s what we got.  This show is much more akin to adding, say, an Elf/Dwarf romance to The Hobbit…

[TheDreadReader]

1 hour ago, DaddyFinn said:

LotR is a simple and short story compared to WoT. The movies had much larger budget per minute. Movie and TV are not the same.

 

Movies also have a easier structure for adaptations.  TV gets a little more complicated when you try to break things down into a series of episodes rather than one 90 - 120 minute film.

 

 

 

[Sabio]

The behind the scenes for episode 7, they talk about how they intentionally went over the top with Tigraine.  Saying this was the mom of the Dragon reborn so we had to show she was bad ass.  Might be a weak excuse but they knew what they were doing was over the top for her.

 

I agree, Nyn is strong but seems they have been in too much of a rush to show how strong Nyn is. She isn't trained, so the shields and such she is throwing up makes you go how did she learn to do that.  Sort of my complaint about the last book.  Seemed there was too much of a we need an equal to Rand so Egwene has to create a whole new weave that somehow only kills evil channelers.  it seemed too much of a how do I end this, so give her this sudden super power.  I have always liked when the stars aren't atomatically just super powerful people, they learn and work to it.

Edited December 20, 2021 by Sabio

[Yojimbo]

11 minutes ago, Mirefox said:

LotR is seen as very faithful to the source material because Peter Jackson was immensely concerned with both fidelity to the source and and internal visual and story consistency.  There were certainly changes made for the movie adaptation and there was plenty of negative reaction at the time but almost all of the changes can be chalked up to the adaptation process.  While this is something that the more fervent show defenders try to claim is the reason, it really doesn’t account for all the changes.  Sadly, Rafe decided to use WoT to tell his own story and as a way to experiment with his own social ideas.  Nobody asked for WoT as a platform for the director to experiment with, but it’s what we got.  This show is much more akin to adding, say, an Elf/Dwarf romance to The Hobbit…

I watched all three  LoTR the past couple of days.  It reminded me how good an adaptation can be even when there are lots of changes made to account for a different medium.   They all still hold up 20 years later.   The characters still felt like the people from the books.   I still cared about all of them.    I still got verklempt when Theodan  gave his speech before the battle of Minas Tirith and during his death scene.   Fantastic  acting. 

 

And the Hobit is  a good example of a bad (I mean, really bad) adaptation.   It shifted the focus so much that Bilbo often felt like a secondary character.  It added Legolas into a story he was not part of for no reason at all.   The elf/dwarf thing was infuriating.  I will never watch those movies again.  I feel awful for Martin Freeman.  He was the perfect casting for Bilbo and was totally wasted in that abomination.   

[Elder_Haman]

9 hours ago, divica said:

who wants to see the second season when you don't like the main character?

All of the non book readers I know who are watching really enjoy it and are looking forward to Season 2. 
 

And it needs to be repeated: Rand is not the main character. Rand is the Dragon. Everything centers on that, but this is an ensemble show with 7 “main” characters. “Friends” wasn’t about Rachel. 
 

[DaddyFinn]

5 minutes ago, Yojimbo said:

And the Hobit is  a good example of a bad (I mean, really bad) adaptation.   It shifted the focus so much that Bilbo often felt like a secondary character.  It added Legolas into a story he was not part of for no reason at all.   The elf/dwarf thing was infuriating.  I will never watch those movies again.  I feel awful for Martin Freeman.  He was the perfect casting for Bilbo and was totally wasted in that abomination.   

I have not read the Hobbit but the worst thing of the movies was the overwhelming amount of CGI and movie style invincible people. Not watching the third one and never rewatching. Original trilogy is great.

 

2 minutes ago, Elder_Haman said:

All of the non book readers I know who are watching really enjoy it and are looking forward to Season 2. 
 

And it needs to be repeated: Rand is not the main character. Rand is the Dragon. Everything centers on that, but this is an ensemble show with 7 “main” characters. “Friends” wasn’t about Rachel. 
 

Someone said somewhere: Rand is the tabletop and the rest of EF5 are the legs. I like that metaphor. Rand is my favorite character of all fantasy and I'm not worried at all.

Edited December 19, 2021 by DaddyFinn