tv show spoilers S1E6: The Flame of Tar Valon

[DojoToad]

30 minutes ago, DigificWriter said:

 

Which means absolutely nothing.

 

Definitive statements like "the changes are of poor quality" have to be evidentiarily supported or they're just nonsensical word-vomit.

So if I think sirloin is poor quality, the statement is invalid because metrics?

[TheDreadReader]

Just now, DojoToad said:

So if I think sirloin is poor quality, the statement is invalid because metrics?

 

Metrics in this case are somewhat relative.  If you don't like sirloin that tells us that 1 person doesn't like sirloin.  If a 1 million people tell us that they like sirloin that tells us that 1 million people like sirloin.   And, we can gauge the relative significance accordingly.  If you're in the grocery business you're more apt to focus on the million sirloin likers and disregard the 1 disliker.   The same applies to books, tv shows, and pretty much everything else.

 

That is not to say that individual opinion is not important on its own or invalid.  It just isn't all that useful beyond a certain point. 

 

 

[DojoToad]

6 minutes ago, TheDreadReader said:

 

Metrics in this case are somewhat relative.  If you don't like sirloin that tells us that 1 person doesn't like sirloin.  If a 1 million people tell us that they like sirloin that tells us that 1 million people like sirloin.   And, we can gauge the relative significance accordingly.  If you're in the grocery business you're more apt to focus on the million sirloin likers and disregard the 1 disliker.   The same applies to books, tv shows, and pretty much everything else.

 

That is not to say that individual opinion is not important on its own or invalid.  It just isn't all that useful beyond a certain point. 

 

 

Correct, and that is why we're all here.  To discuss the show and see where we fall with our compatriots.  Very little of our likes/dislikes and opinions can be quantified as @DigificWriter seems to think.

[TheSmurf]

6 minutes ago, Dead Warder said:

 

If I'm the one then yes. 

If I'm one of the many, then no. 

 

I want my cake and I wanna eat it! ?

[Sabio]

1 hour ago, DigificWriter said:

 

Which means absolutely nothing.

 

Definitive statements like "the changes are of poor quality" have to be evidentiarily supported or they're just nonsensical word-vomit.

I believe it's supported by the number of people who are saying stuff like those axes looked like toys.  Or they wasted alot of time getting us involved in Steph them they kill him etc...  If just one person says man that sucked, you might be able to overlook it.  But if there are dozens of people saying why did they go cheap on this or add that it made no sense, then I think that supports it.

[TheDreadReader]

6 minutes ago, DojoToad said:

Correct, and that is why we're all here.  To discuss the show and see where we fall with our compatriots.  Very little of our likes/dislikes and opinions can be quantified as @DigificWriter seems to think.

 

Using my sirloin example, I can easily quantify a negative sirloin opinion.  It is representative of 1/1,000,001 the opinions in the example. 

 

It's importance and validity derives from its existence but that does not logically corelate to its overall significance within a set.

 

Basically, individual opinions can be useful but so can collections of opinions captured in metrics.

 

At the same time, opinions can have various levels of quality beyond their own existence.  How informed is it?  How common is it?  How well-argued is it.  Etc.  

 

[Sabio]

23 hours ago, thievingsackofpotatoes said:

One of the things that bugs me during my rereads (I try to forget it during the rest of the series) is the lack of actual importance, or clarification, the Eye has in the overall series. Yes, it hides the Dragon Banner/Horn but was left incredibly vague by RJ. 

 

The whole ending sequence, to be fair, is completely existential and doesn't make a whole lot of sense. I don't believe there's ever been a confirmed answer from RJ or his estate about the real purpose behind the Eye of the World.

I always wondered it myself, it was really only useful to destroy the Trolloc army and torch Ishy.  It always seemed to me if for some reason he had to stop the series after one book he could say it helped defeat the DO.  But I always wondered what it was really suppose to do, there had to of been better ways to protect the seal, banner, and horn.

 

[DojoToad]

12 minutes ago, TheDreadReader said:

 

 

Basically, individual opinions can be useful but so can collections of opinions captured in metrics.

 

At the same time, opinions can have various levels of quality beyond their own existence.  How informed is it?  How common is it?  How well-argued is it.  Etc.  

 

Here is a collection of opinions for you.  Can't vouch for the quality, but here are metrics.

 

Now we just need someone to chime in with 'sample size too small'

 

[MasterAblar]

What's that line about statistics already?

[TheDreadReader]

2 minutes ago, Sabio said:

I always wondered it myself, it was really only useful to destroy the Trolloc army and torch Ishy.  It always seemed to me if for some reason he had to stop the series after one book he could say it helped defeat the DO.  But I always wondered what it was really suppose to do, there had to of been better ways to protect the seal, banner, and horn.

 

 

One of those questions that it would be really interesting to go through Jordan's notes to see if there is an answer to it.   

 

What might be a good change to make to the Eye to make its purpose clearer or better?  Is it worth changing?

 

5 minutes ago, DojoToad said:

Here is a collection of opinions for you.  Can't vouch for the quality, but here are metrics.

 

Now we just need someone to chime in with 'sample size too small'

 

 

Sure those are metrics too.

 

40% trend towards positive.  46% trend towards negative.  15% hold fairly neutral.   

 

The question is really how significant is that poll in relation to the overall response to the show?

 

 To me 190 responses on a fan-forum is a useful snapshot of the book fanbase but it is only reflective of them.  And, that is about the response to the show that I would expect.   It feels very similar to early responses of the LOTR fandom back when those "highly regarded" adaptations came out in the 90s.

 

It's the equivalent of doing a poll on sirloin at a steakhouse vs doing it at a vegan restaurant.  The forum will influence the results.

 

 

 

 

[SinisterDeath]

20 hours ago, Sunkiss said:

Who wasn't there. I am talking about the scene after Kerene dies they go to the battle ground and naneyeve is standing against a tree a light trickles I to her and she is like in a dazed looking around and then the show Steppin in a daze cause he feels Karen's death.

Just rewatched that scene. The "flash of light" wasn't going into her.

What you were seeing was in the background behind the tree, and it was an electricity like effect within the dust cloud that erupted from the ground to throw a guy 20 feet into the air.

[Sabio]

5 minutes ago, TheDreadReader said:

One of those questions that it would be really interesting to go through Jordan's notes to see if there is an answer to it.   

 

What might be a good change to make to the Eye to make its purpose clearer or better?  Is it worth changing?

And the Companion is useless, all it says is the Eye was destroyed when it fulfilled its purpose related to the Dragon Reborn.  So I guess those poor Aes Sedai sacrificed themselves so Rand could kill some Trollocs and set Ishy on fire.

[DigificWriter]

Matt Hatch's polls on The Dusty Wheel have been demonstrating that the book fans that his show caters to are either majority positive or evenly split - depending on the specific topic - in their responses to the show, so there is no universal consensus about how it's being received amongst the fandom community.

[TheDreadReader]

4 minutes ago, Sabio said:

And the Companion is useless, all it says is the Eye was destroyed when it fulfilled its purpose related to the Dragon Reborn.  So I guess those poor Aes Sedai sacrificed themselves so Rand could kill some Trollocs and set Ishy on fire.

 

I was convinced for a very long time that the real purpose of the Eye was to give enough information for Rand to rediscover the tinker's song.  ?

 

Sadly, RJ did not agree with me.

 

[TheDreadReader]

1 hour ago, Sabio said:

I believe it's supported by the number of people who are saying stuff like those axes looked like toys.  Or they wasted alot of time getting us involved in Steph them they kill him etc...  If just one person says man that sucked, you might be able to overlook it.  But if there are dozens of people saying why did they go cheap on this or add that it made no sense, then I think that supports it.

 

On of the challenges of thinking in terms of numbers is that if someone or a dozen people remark that x looks bad whereas 100 people don't, the numbers 1 to 12 may look significant but they may still only represent approximately 10% of responses.  

 

Similiarly, if 99 people all have the same complaint but they continue to watch the show, how significant of a factor is it really?

 

 

[Ralph]

31 minutes ago, Sabio said:

And the Companion is useless, all it says is the Eye was destroyed when it fulfilled its purpose related to the Dragon Reborn.  So I guess those poor Aes Sedai sacrificed themselves so Rand could kill some Trollocs and set Ishy on fire.

It started Rand channelling 

[dwn]

1 hour ago, Sabio said:

I always wondered it myself, it was really only useful to destroy the Trolloc army and torch Ishy.  It always seemed to me if for some reason he had to stop the series after one book he could say it helped defeat the DO.  But I always wondered what it was really suppose to do, there had to of been better ways to protect the seal, banner, and horn.

 

While it's not hard to handwave a plausible explanation (and I've done so elsewhere), the real answer is that TEotW suffers from a lot of early instalment weirdness.

[DojoToad]

15 minutes ago, Ralph said:

It started Rand channelling 

Rand channeled at least a couple times before the Eye

[DaddyFinn]

15 minutes ago, dwn said:

While it's not hard to handwave a plausible explanation (and I've done so elsewhere), the real answer is that TEotW suffers from a lot of early instalment weirdness.

Even the prose is so different in the first (3) books it's tough to read sometimes

[Rand the Plumber]

Just caught up with Ep.6.

 

My partner loves it.  I don't.

 

I'm out.  Ciao, y'all.

[Spiritweaver1]

1 hour ago, Sabio said:

I always wondered it myself, it was really only useful to destroy the Trolloc army and torch Ishy.  It always seemed to me if for some reason he had to stop the series after one book he could say it helped defeat the DO.  But I always wondered what it was really suppose to do, there had to of been better ways to protect the seal, banner, and horn.

 

I sort of remember a scene in the books where Aes Sedai were preparing the Eye. TSR pg 300 & 301 I can't recall where or if they explained the purposes but here my interpretation of the scene goes.  I believe at least one had the foretelling ability.  The Eye was created to protect the artifacts. It was also created with a pool of Saidin for the budding dragon to use to defeat Anginor, the trollocs and fades at TG, and Ishy(round 1).  That takes a lot of power and it had to be clean so our young hero doesn't get sick at a critical moment. They had some young males to use "barely touched by the taint"    Then they enlisted Someshta the last of the Nym to guard it.   

[Ralph]

14 minutes ago, DojoToad said:

Rand channeled at least a couple times before the Eye

Sure. But never consciously 

[DojoToad]

2 minutes ago, Ralph said:

Sure. But never consciously 

Consciously or unconsciously, he started channeling before the Eye.

[Spiritweaver1]

Just an idle thought at this point.  RJ's story wasn't perfect and not everything hung together.  But most of it did to an amazing degree.  He had the advantage of being able to spin words into a picture for his reader's minds which those with sufficient imagination and powers of visualization were able to spin into fantastic head movies.  Rafe has a set amount of money and a set of stuff peddlers and IT folk for masters.   So who among us can step forward to run the show?  I am not normally a super critical person but hanging here has turned me into a critic.  Even in my series rereading I am starting to be more critical of the story than I ever have been before.    My plan is to binge the whole series in early January trying not to compare it to the book plot/characters.  In the meantime where are my drakhar!!   We need more shadow spawn and rounding out of the forsaken.   Rafe I am talking to you or your DM spies.  Do not eliminate all the fantastical creatures. Rent if you have to!!!

[Gothic Flame]

45 minutes ago, TheDreadReader said:

Similiarly, if 99 people all have the same complaint but they continue to watch the show, how significant of a factor is it really?

It's a fair point.

For those that complain but stick to the show with the hope it gets better aren't providing any reason for such changes to be made.