tv show spoilers S1E6: The Flame of Tar Valon

[Skipp]

2 minutes ago, RextheDog said:

quick question.

 

why is it such an urgency to cquickly get through the waygate before it closes?

 

if she opened it with the power, why cant she just hold it open?

 

what am i  missing?

The assumption is that scene was filmed when they came back from the first covid shutdown.  They had finished principle filming on the first 6 episodes by that point.  Barney Harris' social media's went dark before they came back to filming.  So the thought is that he didn't come back at all and they had to reshoot the episode 6 ending to show Mat staying behind.

 

This is entirely speculation at this point as no one involved with the production has actually commented.

[DaddyFinn]

21 minutes ago, Zarathustra said:

Consider when Tuon is introduced and how unique she is compared to every other character introduced to that point. 

Is she unique because of her skin color? Am I missing something? I've seen this argument many times before but I still don't get it.

[Agitel]

I hope we're going to see Mat in episodes 7 and 8 and they just have an alternative plot for him. It is what it is if he's not there, casting issues happen, but I really hope that is not it.

[DaddyFinn]

2 minutes ago, Agitel said:

I hope we're going to see Mat in episodes 7 and 8 and they just have an alternative plot for him. It is what it is if he's not there, casting issues happen, but I really hope that is not it.

IMDb has Barney listed on episodes 7&8 but that could be false. Who knows, I certainly don't.

[chri5]

24 minutes ago, Zarathustra said:

Or, you could just review RJ's thoughts about actors to be cast as characters that he created.

He just picked well known actors that also didn’t match his own descriptions ??

 

Thats included in that video too btw. 

[chri5]

11 minutes ago, Yojimbo said:

Except that they give themselves an easy out, saying she can't return until Siuan calls her back.   And IIRC Suian starts crying, which defeats the purpose of her punishing Moraine, who also throws in a few terms of endearment while changing the wording of the oath.   I just found it poorly done to give them another "special moment.   

Probably part of the reason Siuan gets spoilered later in the series. She was never as good as she thought she was. 

[Therese Sedai]

8 minutes ago, WheelofJuke said:

They shouldn't; however, tokenism is a real thing, as pointed out previously. 

 

Not saying I think this is the case, simply mentioning that side of it. 

I’m well aware of what tokenism is and I did read the post you’re referring to, but I wonder if we need to clarify.
 

Tokenism would be including a queer character for the sake of inclusion, whereupon that character’s queerness serves no purpose to the character’s development or the storyline as a whole. It’s basically exclusion via inclusion in a story.  We’ve been shown by at least 3 different posters here that their romance serves a greater purpose in the show even if it didn’t in the books. Rosamund Pike has also spoken on this in interviews. 
 

So I’m a little confused. If you don’t think this is the case, what exactly is your point? 
 

[chri5]

9 minutes ago, DaddyFinn said:

Is she unique because of her skin color? Am I missing something? I've seen this argument many times before but I still don't get it.

I always read it that she was darker than anyone they had seen before. 

[Yojimbo]

6 minutes ago, DaddyFinn said:

IMDb has Barney listed on episodes 7&8 but that could be false. Who knows, I certainly don't.

it is quite common for people to have their name associated with a show as "credit only".   His name will undoubtedly come up in the last two episodes.   It's kind of a shame, because despite my dislike of some of the choices they made with regards to his backstory, I thought Barney was the strongest of the EF5 as an actor.   If his replacement is not as good that will hurt the show.   

 

See, I don't hate everything about the show!  I genuinely wish it was better, or would get better.  

[DaddyFinn]

6 minutes ago, chri5 said:

I always read it that she was darker than anyone they had seen before. 

But that doesn't mean she was the darkest that we had seen at that point? I don't really care tbh. ? Tuon's skin color is also not important for her character. That is the case for the majority of characters. Aiel and Sea Folk would be nice to keep their book appearance

[WheelofJuke]

7 minutes ago, Therese Sedai said:

I’m well aware of what tokenism is and I did read the post you’re referring to, but I wonder if we need to clarify.
 

Tokenism would be including a queer character for the sake of inclusion, whereupon that character’s queerness serves no purpose to the character’s development or the storyline as a whole. It’s basically exclusion via inclusion in a story.  We’ve been shown by at least 3 different posters here that their romance serves a greater purpose in the show even if it didn’t in the books. Rosamund Pike has also spoken on this in interviews. 
 

So I’m a little confused. If you don’t think this is the case, what exactly is your point? 
 

I wasn't referring to the Mo/Su romance, which was one of the better changes because xyz reasons already mentioned. 

 

I'm probably not the best person to argue this point one way or another, just trying my best to see all sides! Definitely not trying to "make a point" just discussing things with an open mind. ?

 

 

 

[chri5]

3 minutes ago, DaddyFinn said:

But that doesn't mean she was the darkest that we had seen at that point? I don't really care tbh. ? Tuon's skin color is also not important for her character. That is the case for the majority of characters. Aiel and Sea Folk would be nice to keep their book appearance

I have no cares on this subject either lol

[Therese Sedai]

1 minute ago, WheelofJuke said:

I wasn't referring to the Mo/Su romance, which was one of the better changes because xyz reasons already mentioned. 

 

I'm probably not the best person to argue this point one way or another, just trying my best to see all sides! Definitely not trying to "make a point" just discussing things with an open mind. ?

 

 

 

I’m sorry about that. It seems I misunderstood. You’re quite right. It’s nice to see things from different perspectives so thank you for sharing. 

[WheelofJuke]

Just now, Therese Sedai said:

I’m sorry about that. It seems I misunderstood. You’re quite right. It’s nice to see things from different perspectives so thank you for sharing. 

No worries at all! ?

 

 

[Zarathustra]

1 hour ago, Therese Sedai said:

Where is this praise well then? I assumed you were referring to the press. 
 

I see what you’re saying about the red ajah but depicting all lesbians as militant misandrists is probably not a good look. 

Perhaps my statement lacked clarity.

 

I didn't care when I read the books and I don't care now =  RJ could have written that scene in the books and I would not have cared.  However, I never stated anything about the importance, or lack thereof, regarding a character being gay.

 

Yes, I think that that scene was included solely to tap into the press's praise-well.

 

The Red is logical and easy to incorporate.  Just as it was easy for RJ to incorporate Reds that were hetero sex-fiends.  Everyone seems angry because "pillow friends" was hush-hush in the WT, but he chose to make them a bit Puritanical superficially and a bit heretical in private (same thing holds true with the Greens and their man slaves).

 

RJ's physicist side came through often and, like everyone else that got to play with q-mech, thought about "the lines of if" and eternal recurrence.  W-Randland certainly has a touch of reformation era Euro-land's philosophy and I think he was touching on that (both the superficial and the real).

Edited December 11, 2021 by Zarathustra

[Zarathustra]

52 minutes ago, DaddyFinn said:

Is she unique because of her skin color? Am I missing something? I've seen this argument many times before but I still don't get it.

Yes.  She's black and it stands out.  Same thing with Semirhage and I think that's why her theater of operations was in Seanchan.

[DaddyFinn]

1 minute ago, Zarathustra said:

Yes.  She's black and it stands out.  Same thing with Semirhage and I think that's why her theater of operations was in Seanchan.

Seanchan are not all black, right? Sea Folk are very dark/black, some of the Tairens are at least dark.

[WOTReader2]

3 hours ago, The Purple Ajah said:

Again, it seems that a lot of fans that complain about 'pointless' additions or changes do not realize that a lot of them quite obviously contain very important aspects to the story, be that emotional factors, or simply communicating aspects of the plot to us.

 

The scene between Moiraine and Siuan conveys several aspects of the story:

• That the antagonism between Moiraine and Siuan is all for show, and that they truly have an extremely close and intimate relationship.
• That for all her stoicism, Moiraine does have her own interests, people who she loves, and a life she does care about on some level -- even beyond her mission to find the Dragon Reborn.
• That Siuan is an ally for Moiraine and her party, but that there is a need to tread very carefully with the politics of the Hall.
• A segue into setting up Siuan as the only person who knows the truth about Moiraine's mission other than herself and Lan, and discussions about the prophecies and how much they can be trusted, and what the group needs to do for the end of the season.

A picture paints a thousand words. Screenwriting is an art, one that is distinct from a novel, and a scene like this is a perfect example of how a different medium has different assets for telling the same story we all love and care about. What's more, with the rushed pacing at certain points being a large complaint, it is great to have a slower and more emotion and character driven scene for the story.

 

You don't need a sex scene to show any of that, though. A hug and a joke is enough to show that the whole thing was a façade. In the end, the series has no time to waste and they need to focus on the main points of the story. This important point was telling Siuan that she thinks she has found the Dragon Reborn; a pretty big deal considering they have risked their lives for it.

 

But, I also don't agree with showing it as a façade this early on, anyway. I think it would have been better that this was left with maybe a small clue, indicating something wasn't quite normal. They then should have proceeded with the banishment and given more time to developing Loial and the other main characters (Rand, Matt, and Perrin, in particular). 

 

It allow viewers to wonder what is really going on between Siuan and Moiraine. You can have the emotion of her leaving and being banished from the tower (the rod thing wasn't needed, and another waste of time). But she is supposed to be a person who gets on with it in the books. She does what she needs to do, and will quickly focus on the task.

 

Siuan's development should really have come when Nynaeve and Egwene actually become apprentices. It was strange to do it at this point in the series when there is so much that has not been explained. You also have a major character at this point who has no been properly introduced in Loial.

 

However, I will admit there is a major issue to this. Since they decided to take this part of the story from Caemlyn to Tar Valon, Moiraine and co actually have no direction. They have no reason to leave the city as they have already reached their target. They need someone to tell them to go, and that is what happened (and for pretty much no reason). 

 

When they left Caemlyn, they could have been heading to Tar Valon still and need to use the waygate to escape the Trollocs (I can't quite remember how this plays out in the book). I think Rafe wrote himself into a bit of a hole, to be honest, and was forced to do the meeting with the Amyrlin Seat, which was poorly timed for me. 

 

Edited December 11, 2021 by WOTReader2

[Zarathustra]

1 minute ago, DaddyFinn said:

Seanchan are not all black, right? Sea Folk are very dark/black, some of the Tairens are at least dark.

No.  Seanchan seems to be an incorporation of many isolates that were absorbed by King Arthur's son and his descendants.  Things progressed differently there too--it seems as if they held on to some of the older tech longer.

 

I might be wrong but I always assumed w-Randland was a composite of Europe and parts of North Africa--I always assumed that "dark" = med tan.  Then again, the Aiel Waste is populated by Scandinavians that have Meso-American crops--so, I might be wrong.

[Skipp]

29 minutes ago, DaddyFinn said:

Seanchan are not all black, right? Sea Folk are very dark/black, some of the Tairens are at least dark.

Not to mention the First queen of Andor was just as dark

[Agitel]

Someone mentioned Semirage "needing" to go to Seanchan because she wouldn't have fit in otherwise. But Rahvin himself was very dark of skin and just inserted himself into Andor without much fuss.

[MaxZorin]

5 hours ago, The Purple Ajah said:

 it's a shame that there is a tendency for people to forget the events of the actual books lol.

It's a bit of a razor's edge trying to figure out exactly when I am supposed to remember the events of the book, and when I'm supposed to forget the events of the book, in order to enjoy the show.  

 

I think whenever something is different from the books, I'm supposed to forget them.  And whenever something is confusing, or poorly presented, I'm supposed to remember the books and use those millions of words to find a justification.  I think.  

 

I'd rather just be immersed in a fantasy adventure, without all the homework. 

[Ralph]

Sorry. As usual I don't have time to watch the episode in one go, so by the time I have watched it and am ready to throw in my reactions there are 25 pages to wade through first. 

I have read all of those pages, though not every comment with the attention it may have deserved. 

 

Re Siuan and Moiraine, it seemed obvious to me that although it is true that this was an opportunity to keep a relationship RJ explicitly referenced, while removing his (somewhat offensive) attitude that pillow-friends are a high school dormitory play activity. 

But much more importantly, Moiraine almost certainly knows before they have sex that she has to be banished from TV, and may well never see Siuan again. The relationship being real makes that incredibly emotive, but also shows Moiraine's drive and dedication. 

It even seems possible to me that she chose not to answer Siuan's question evasively in order to create this situation. 

 

[Ralph]

I really hope the Mat thing is part of the story, in order to get PF and the dagger involved, rather than just due to him leaving the show. 

 

I don't like last minute forced edits

 

?

[Ralph]

What is this thing of Moiraine taking the darkness into herself? 

 

Is this coming back later?