tv show spoilers S1E5: Blood Calls Blood

[Agitel]

32 minutes ago, Harad the White said:

And as you know the Questioners wrt to the WC, were the Inquisitors wrt to the otherwise tolerant Church.

 

What happened in Spain is somewhat of an outlier. The common law system prior to inquisitional methods basically involved a bunch of people stepping forward with testimony with little to no evidence requirements. The development of the inquisitional system took steps to actual require prosecutors to collect evidence for review and move away from trials based entirely on witness testimony and to be a more reliable and just trial system. The system actually included minimum standards for the treatment of prisoners and rules preventing (given the standards of the time) mistreatment of prisoners and excessive questioning methods.

 

What happened in Spain included numerous abuses to the inquisition system that was developed by the Church and was used by the state as a tool for its own agenda.

 

Now, I'm not saying the inquisitional system is a paragon of justice, or is as good as or better than today's systems and laws. But in context of what it was moving on from, it was really intended to raise the bar on how trials were conducted. (Talking about the inquisitional system and not the Spanish Inquisition in particular).

Edited December 3, 2021 by Agitel

[RhienneAgain]

Oh, and agreed that the magical nature of the bond hasn't been we'll set up (or at least the almost inevitable consequences of it). I really don't think a non-book reader would have enough information to understand that Steppin's reaction to his Aes Sedai's death is actually the norm.

 

Sidenote related to this - why did Steppin get the OTT expression of grief by Lan but Karen didn't get similar? I get hers wasn't a formal funeral but they bothered with the candles and laying the graves out in a wheel so could easily have included a chief mourner.

[Agitel]

1 minute ago, RhienneAgain said:

Sidenote related to this - why did Steppin get the OTT expression of grief by Lan but Karen didn't get similar? I get hers wasn't a formal funeral but they bothered with the candles and laying the graves out in a wheel so could easily have included a chief mourner.

 

Stepin's may have been based on his culture while the mass buried may have followed standard Aes Sedai protocol insofar as they could. Or maybe Warders have their own separate rituals.

[Harad the White]

5 minutes ago, Agitel said:

Now, I'm not saying the inquisitional system is a paragon of justice, or is as good as or better than today's systems and laws. But in context of what it was moving on from, it was really intended to raise the bar on how trials were conducted.

And the subject: heresy. Any "trial" on that subject is going to be an abuse, regardless of the niceties.

[FanofKnotai]

54 minutes ago, Agitel said:

 

You're thinking regular Children. Questioners, the "Hand of the Light", are well known in the books to use torture in their questioning of suspected darkfriends to gain confessions.

Quote

You’re thinking regular Children. 

No actually I wasn’t. The Children were said to torture when they are given “suspected darkfriends”.  Even when Pedron Niall has Geofram meet Valda in the village before going on to Falme in The Great Hunt. Bornhold remarks on how Valda releases entire village of people to make room for his troops despite Bornhold’s orders to “not leave tongues allowed to wag” by Niall. He had no reason for suspecting them for DF besides “remembering their faces”, let alone to suspect her of being able to channel. 

[JaimAybara]

As to trick photography for making Loial bigger in contrast to Gimli. It is much easier to find a stand in at distance for Gimli, then finding someone that pushes 8 ft tall for Loial. Also, the prosthetic work on top of that is likely much more expensive because you’re covering way more and need to make it look fluid and real. He still looks a good hand and a half taller than Rand. So, that’s something. I bet when he is angry he will stand even taller and not slouch. But much of the trick photography involved multiple sets and prop settings too in LotR. Probably time constraints and budget issues for that. 

[Scarloc99]

49 minutes ago, king of nowhere said:

stepin hit me. Everything made it seem like he maybe could survive, until he suddenly didn't.

but they are setting things up for when it will happen to lan, of course. i should have expected it. good job, setting stuff up for later season; this is real epic fantasy.

 

loial is... very short. yes, i realize it's done for practical reasons, i'm still having a hard time reconciling him with the image in my head. rare thing, for me. i'm sure i will get over it when i see him interact with the others some more. i was waiting for him to explain the ta'veren business, maybe next episode.

There was a moment, very subtle, where I was sure he was about to tell Rand Egwene couldn't be Jain because she is female and he is male and the wheel always spins you out the same gender. But Rand cut him off. 

No Loial isnt 10 feet tall, and that is ok, I would rather the budget be saved, but he did feel bigger, hands, body, stature and the way he talked was as I pictured it so overall happy. 

[Harad the White]

1 minute ago, JaimAybara said:

It is much easier to find a stand in at distance for Gimli, then finding someone that pushes 8 ft tall for Loial.

Not sure that's true. If I understand what you mean, in a long-shot a small person next to normal size people would suggest Gimli. Conversely in a long-shot on WoT, a tall person next to small people would suggest an 8' tall Loial. The problem is when Loial and normal-to-bigger sized people like Rand are in the same room.

[king of nowhere]

17 minutes ago, JaimAybara said:

Bad 1) Lan. Just, no. He is stoic. Let him be stoic. Some may like it the way they went and I’m happy for you if you did. I didn’t. I liked the ritual, the ceremony, etc. just not centered on Lan and his emotions. Also, make him more competent. I’d like to see him school Rand a few times in the training yard or something.

 

alas, yes. I'm not fond of how they're making him fail so often.

granted, none of those failures are big.

he fails to protect moiraine, but it was a big fight with many opponents.

He brought the party inside shadar logoth, and apparently he didn't have a plan to survive the night, but he didn't have any better choice

He gets sneaked upon by nynaeve, who goes as close as putting a knife to his throat.

the party of warders make fun of his poor horse training skill

he is almost killed at the battle with logain, though nobody is expecing him to do much in a battle of channelers

he fails to prevent stepin to commit suicide, though he got drugged by his friend.

 

none of those is a problem by itself. but all together, they take lan down too much for comfort.

not enough to ruin my enjoyment, but it's sore spot.

 

By the way, speaking of minor nuisances, while I like the scenery it chafes that we never see any farm or plantation. I mean, the buildings yes, farms with barns and everything. But not actual fields. they aren't growing anything. even tar valon, a huge city, what do they eat? it's all woods around as far as the eye can see. it spoils a bit the atmosphere

 

 

[Scarloc99]

47 minutes ago, Wolfbrother31 said:

 

I do think that thus far, the casting and the acting have been top notch. And I agree that, Matt, especially is legit. Sad he's gone next season. 

I think some of the CGI stuff will improve. 

 

My main concern is the writing & some over all direction. 

 

But, something that hasn't been mentioned that I, actually, really appreciate so far (that makes WoT - in my opinion, even this WoT, better than GoT) is that they are NOT shoving gratuitous nudity and sex in our faces. 

 

Though I was very uncomfortable for Maddy as the Nazi WC's scrubbed her down. 

Books 1 and 2 don't include this side of RJ's writing, this to my mind is why episode 1 the Lan Morraine and Egwene Rand scenes where very important, it sets the viewer up for the Sex, Rape, Poly Relationships, perrin/Faile DS elements, Matt being tied to a bed and all the other sex that starts to permeate from book 3/4 onwards so will not be seen really until season 3. 

[Scarloc99]

57 minutes ago, king of nowhere said:

stepin hit me. Everything made it seem like he maybe could survive, until he suddenly didn't.

but they are setting things up for when it will happen to lan, of course. i should have expected it. good job, setting stuff up for later season; this is real epic fantasy.

 

loial is... very short. yes, i realize it's done for practical reasons, i'm still having a hard time reconciling him with the image in my head. rare thing, for me. i'm sure i will get over it when i see him interact with the others some more. i was waiting for him to explain the ta'veren business, maybe next episode.

A really really good depiction of someone who is in that place. You never really know how deep into the darkness someone is until they go and do something like that. His saying goodbye to Lan, was very well done. 

[Harad the White]

2 minutes ago, Sir_Charrid said:

sex that starts to permeate from book 3/4 onwards

Now yer talkin'! Except for those below 18, ofc. (16 in the UK).

[JaimAybara]

5 minutes ago, Harad the White said:

Not sure that's true. If I understand what you mean, in a long-shot a small person next to normal size people would suggest Gimli. Conversely in a long-shot on WoT, a tall person next to small people would suggest an 8' tall Loial. The problem is when Loial and normal-to-bigger sized people like Rand are in the same room.

That’s a good point. But you would need one tall person and find much shorter stand ins for everyone else. Plus you have more prosthesis and makeup for larger folks. Whereas for Gimli they just need a single shorter stand in and that’s it.

[AusLeviathan]

3 minutes ago, Sir_Charrid said:

There was a moment, very subtle, where I was sure he was about to tell Rand Egwene couldn't be Jain because she is female and he is male and the wheel always spins you out the same gender. But Rand cut him off.

It was a little unclear, Rand said Egwene thought she was Jain Farstrider herself which made me wonder if they were gender swapping Jain or if they just got confused about how to word it. I figured Loial was just talking about how unlikely it would be to know who you're reborn as given how many souls there would be.

 

In any case if they're going with the argument that Ogier know this then it would make it even weirder that Aes Sedai don't. Though perhaps the show is different given Loial was being chased by people in Tar Valon as if he was a monster, despite there being an Ogier grove in Tar Valon.

[Scarloc99]

27 minutes ago, Harad the White said:

Agreed. Just wonder what it would take to do both: achieve what you said plus make him 50% bigger. How is he going to mow down bad-guys like in the book?  Did the venues in the book there have big doors and high ceilings? Was Loial always stooping to leave/enter rooms? I sorta remember that.

 

Someone above mentioned perspective tricks with cameras to make him look even larger. Not sure that is enough to sustain the illusion. In LoTR they solved the opposite problem with Gimli. Wonder why the Loial problem is inherently more difficult.

They did this a lot with the Hobbits, but it requires specially made sets and I don't think the budget will run to it. 

[FanofKnotai]

1 hour ago, Agitel said:

 

You're thinking regular Children. Questioners, the "Hand of the Light", are well known in the books to use torture in their questioning of suspected darkfriends to gain confessions.

Quote

You’re thinking regular Children. 

No actually I wasn’t. The Children were said to torture when they are given “suspected darkfriends”.  Even when Pedron Niall has Geofram meet Valda in the village before going on to Falme in The Great Hunt. Bornhold remarks on how Valda releases entire village of people to make room for his troops despite Bornhold’s orders to “not leave tongues allowed to wag” by Niall. He had no reason for suspecting them for DF besides “remembering their faces”, let alone to suspect her of being able to channel. 

[Scarloc99]

6 minutes ago, Harad the White said:

Now yer talkin'! Except for those below 18, ofc. (16 in the UK).

My hope is they are not as gratuitous as GOT, and handle it more like what I call the Lovecraftian approach, you show the build up, you show the aftermath but you never see the actual moment it all happens. 

[FanofKnotai]

Also noticed when Stepin took the ring from Kerene it had a green stone in it just like Moiraine’s blue stone in her ring. When it was around his neck, and when he placed it in the molten gold, it was sans stone. Wonder why…

[Harad the White]

7 minutes ago, Sir_Charrid said:

but you never see the actual moment it all happens. 

? I should hope not!

[Scarloc99]

22 hours ago, themann1086 said:

 

• The story of Egwene almost dying as a child, very good (and reading between the lines... channeling!)

Overall a solid episode that moved our characters close to all reuniting and gave us some very good exposition and world building. Very excited for next week to really kick this into high gear

I should be getting back to it soon as I am re reading the EOTW but I am sure that story is lifted from the books, might not be Egwene but I do remember an Aes Sedai asking Nyn if she ever had someone who was sick, should not have survived but did and she recalls breakbone fever and how she felt sick the next day. 

[whiskey delta]

Watched the episode again to see if anything else popped out and to revisit my earlier impressions. Reading along with this thread has clarified a few things as well.

 

I’m still going to hold out hope for Perrin. Watching the scene again and thinking of earlier scenes perhaps I’m projecting what I think his grief should look like rather than seeing it for what it is. I do hope we’ll see a new expression once in a while though, my guy has got to work on his look when he’s reacting to something off screen ?

 

Egwene channeling a fireball as her first “weave” seems like a nod towards

Spoiler

her eventual place in Green similar to how Moiraine related Nynaeve’s first act of healing to Yellow.

 

Ive seen others mention it, but yeah, Valda must have something that protects him. Egwene’s fireball was tiny but he somehow captured and killed seven full Sisters? There’s got to be more there.

 

The points of Lan being the designated mourner makes sense with the line about freeing “us” of grief. Hadn’t thought of it that way. I wasn’t bothered by his emotion so much (I actually rather like Lan’s quips and humor) - the cheesy chest thumping was what got me.

 

I dig the symbolism of the rings of dead AS being melted and forged again. Also the sage warding scene was cool and a nice nugget about the Forsaken.

 

What’s with the persimmons reference? Liandrin mentions it then later Alanna is eating one in Moiraine’s room

 

What was that painting/portrait Moiraine was looking at?

Spoiler

I’m getting a sense she already knows her future given the heavy emphasis on what happens to Warders and her talk of passing the Bond.

Oh, and the face she makes when Nynaeve gives her some sass about being underestimated was too funny. 
 

I know the Stepin arc is a sore spot for some but I think it was a good way of showing the bond versus just describing it. All of that info is covered in the first book so it fits and also Stepin’s acting was superb throughout. Well done imo.

 

I like the hints they’re starting to drop for Rand. I’m looking forward to him taking on a larger role moving forward. I missed PF the first time but caught it this time around. The zoom in on Mat while Logain is laughing is a little heavy handed but overall I get why they’re doing it.

 

I like this actor for Mat so I’m bummed to hear he’s gone after this season. The dagger sickness is well done and I think his despair over the girl is perfect. 

 

That’s all I can recall this time. Overall still think the episode was really good. Love the groundwork being laid for future reveals/events 

 

 

 

Edited December 4, 2021 by DELTA
Added spoiler blocks

[Agitel]

18 minutes ago, AusLeviathan said:

It was a little unclear, Rand said Egwene thought she was Jain Farstrider herself which made me wonder if they were gender swapping Jain or if they just got confused about how to word it. I figured Loial was just talking about how unlikely it would be to know who you're reborn as given how many souls there would be.

 

In any case if they're going with the argument that Ogier know this then it would make it even weirder that Aes Sedai don't. Though perhaps the show is different given Loial was being chased by people in Tar Valon as if he was a monster, despite there being an Ogier grove in Tar Valon.

 

Loial was going to point out 

Spoiler

that Jain isn't dead yet, or at least was seen alive after Egwene was born.

 

[Harad the White]

With all due respect to @ArryIT evocation of the Medieval Troubadours, StepinWolf,

 

They writers also missed a bet, before the sad demise of Kerene and Stepin. In their tent they could easily have Kerene ask Stepin for another mead pointing to the min-bar, asking, "Stepin fetch it!"

[Scarloc99]

22 hours ago, Harad the White said:

I don't mind making up things, but to force (some of the) audience to flash back to another fantasy series has to be an unforced error. 

I mean Robert Jordan wrote the whole of the eye of the world as an Homage to LOTR, Lan is Arragorn, Ogiers are Ents, the boys are the hobbits, Mydrahhl are the Ring Wraiths, Morraine is Gandalf, Shadar Logath was Moria and Tar Valon Rivendell. So a little call back to the thing that inspired this is a nice touch. 

Edited December 4, 2021 by Sir_Charrid

[Harad the White]

1 minute ago, Sir_Charrid said:

I mean Robert Jordan wrote the whole of the eye of the world as an Homage to WOT, Lan is Arragorn, Ogiers are Ents, the boys are the hobbits, Mydrahhl are the Ring Wraiths, Morraine is Gandalf, Shadar Logath was Moria and Tar Valon Rivendell. So a little call back to the thing that inspired this is a nice touch. 

True that. My response to the same argument from Elder_H, is that I am full of those tributes after Mo's intro speech (tribute to Galadriel's intro speech), Tam's speech to Rand (tribute to Gandalf's speech to Pippin), and other cinematic homages.