tv show spoilers S1E4: The Dragon Reborn

[Beidomon]

15 minutes ago, Elder_Haman said:

Horrible as an actor or as a character? I think they’re doing a great job of making her three dimensional. She’s not obviously evil but she also clearly has her own agenda. 
 

Kate Fleetwood is doing an amazing job. 

Yeah she’s great. We know she’s pure evil but she actually doesn’t come across that way. 

[Guest Wolfbrother31]

4 minutes ago, Rand the Plumber said:

In my entirely unhumble opinion, some of the best villains are the ones that make us go "I hate you, and I hate that I hate you".

 

I would say something similar but almost opposite... I think the best villains are the ones that make us go, "I hate you, and I hate that I can relate to you." 

 

Spoiler

Liandrin is the only candidate in the running for that so far, but we don't know she's an antagonist yet.

 

[flinn]

18 minutes ago, Elder_Haman said:

Horrible as an actor or as a character? I think they’re doing a great job of making her three dimensional. She’s not obviously evil but she also clearly has her own agenda. 
 

Kate Fleetwood is doing an amazing job. 

 As a character, the actor is doing fantastic. Liandrian is freaking awful in every possible way though.

[Beidomon]

11 minutes ago, Wolfbrother31 said:

Also - they're really pressing into the "Who is the Dragon" question...especially in this episode ... And though I've been very critical in the past that that's not an interesting question to much of the audience ... In this episode, I can see it taking shape and they're doing it quite well. So now I'll be less critical on that point.

Yes, unless they carry this into Season 2. That would annoy me bigly. I know we’ve been told that won’t be the case, but I also know not to trust anything the writers say at this point.

 

Spoiler

Supposedly this is happening by the end of Episode 6?! But that doesn’t align at all with the names of the episodes - and it frankly doesn’t make any sense how they would be revealing the DR before Rand even enters the ways or reaches the Eye. 

 

[Guest Wolfbrother31]

5 minutes ago, DaddyFinn said:

Valda is one I love to hate

 

I thinking/hoping that we'll get more of the Whitecloaks in the next episode and they'll be more relatable - though having the Questioners be nuts and evil is totally on par with the books - it could be done better where you say, "Huh. I can see where they're coming from. There actually are some evil Aes Sedai and they're just lumping them all into the same group." [Like happens all the time in history and today's world].

[Ploodie]

10 minutes ago, flinn said:

 As a character, the actor is doing fantastic. Liandrian is freaking awful in every possible way though.

Of course - I just think that villains are better when they are understandable. Seeing her struggle over wanting to gentle Logain before he can do harm, and seeing that in some ways she was right, that's powerful storytelling. 

[Guest Wolfbrother31]

5 minutes ago, Beidomon said:

Yes, unless they carry this into Season 2. That would annoy me bigly.

Totally agree. We need to end this season knowing that the Dragon is 

Spoiler

Rand

And to have a new compelling question for season 2.

Probably 

Spoiler

What's Rand going to do now?

 

But we are straying off topic here...

Edited November 28, 2021 by Wolfbrother31

[Harad the White]

3 hours ago, Agitel said:

Characters can be in error and make incorrect judgments within the story. Thom's seen one case of it. It affected him personally. He has presumably not read any textbooks about the signs. He's relating to his personal experience. Entirely believable.

I went through all the interactions between Thom and Matt in detail (see above). Characters can be mistaken, yes. But their mistakes have to be motivated. There is no overlap between the Owyn story and Thom's experiences with Matt, except that a horse rears while they're in the beginning of a confrontation at the farm (more details above).  Matt never channels in Thom's experience, and everything else is inadequate for Thom's conclusion that he does. That may be "entirely believable" to you and others, but it doesn't reach the plausibility threshold for me. The Owyn speech was jarring. As I also detailed, I understand the motivation of the Amazon writers, not of Thom. And BTW, I am a supporter of this Amazon series and writers thus far. I will, however, not hesitate to call them out, when they go astray. For example, after episode 1, the jarring concept was the gender neutral DR. The writers cleaned that up for me in a subsequent episode. This one with Thom is minor, but can't be cleaned up, sadly.

[Harad the White]

1 hour ago, Ploodie said:

Seeing her struggle over wanting to gentle Logain

I saw no struggle. She wanted to gentle Logain at the beginning, middle, and end. She may have even relaxed her shield with Kerene, so that Logain could escape, and then she could implement her plan to gentle him.

[TheDreadReader]

2 hours ago, LoRd PyrO said:

When Logain was brought to Camlyn; he was guarded by 13 Aeis Sedia. Because that is what it took to subdue him. How in the world can only two hold him?!?

 

 

In book lore, all men can't break out of shield being actively held by 13 sisters that sets an upper limit.  My statement that Logain is at least as powerful as 2 Aes Sedai sets a lower limit which establishes a range for  power levels.  Since 2 is the lower limit and 12 is the upper limit, he would fall somewhere in between them. 

 

The fact that the show only showed 2 and occasionally 3 sisters holding his shield has as much to do with budget (every actor adds costs) but as long as they remain consistent with having at least 2 sisters holding the shield they are not breaking lore in a relative sense.   

 

In the books, RJ could specify absolute numbers because they don't cost any money to write.  The TV show has to be more strategic in that it shows. 

 

 

[CaddySedai]

1 hour ago, Wolfbrother31 said:

But we are straying off topic here...

 

Glad you said it before I had to <(^_^)>

[Harad the White]

1 hour ago, Elder_Haman said:

Horrible as an actor or as a character?

As a character. Great as an actor. In her own way, she is like the Children. Rigidly inflexible in her beliefs, and wrong.

[TheDreadReader]

8 minutes ago, Harad the White said:

I went through all the interactions between Thom and Matt in detail (see above). Characters can be mistaken, yes. But their mistakes have to be motivated. There is no overlap between the Owyn story and Thom's experiences with Matt, except that a horse rears while they're in the beginning of a confrontation at the farm (more details above).  Matt never channels in Thom's experience, and everything else is inadequate for Thom's conclusion that he does. That may be "entirely believable" to you and others, but it doesn't reach the plausibility threshold for me. The Owyn speech was jarring. As I also detailed, I understand the motivation of the Amazon writers, not of Thom. And BTW, I am a supporter of this Amazon series and writers thus far. I will, however, not hesitate to call them out, when they go astray. For example, after episode 1, the jarring concept was the gender neutral DR. The writers cleaned that up for me in a subsequent episode. This one with Thom is minor, but can't be cleaned up, sadly.

 

It might be helpful to remember the concept of subtextual dialogue here.   The "purpose" of the scene is to communicate a few signs of channeler sickness.  The method is to do it indirectly via subtextual dialogue.    Your average viewer already has a context to put those signs into perspective since they see Mat acting differently, most are familiar with the cursed item trope, and they show Mat getting sick.   What Thom does here is basically erect a large neon sign that says "There's something significant here, pay attention."  He doesn't have to be correct in his motivation or diagnoses in order for the relevant information to be shown.

 

 

 

[Ralph]

What is the last image in the episode stills attached to ep4? Looks like Egwene clutched by some monster? 

[Harad the White]

Just now, TheDreadReader said:

 What Thom does here is basically erect a large neon sign that says "There's something significant here, pay attention." 

That is correct. But what he lands on as "significant" is not motivated by his interactions with Matt. The motivation is the writer's desire to muddy the waters on the DR, since they have laid significant groundwork that he is a great channeler. If Matt can not channel, how can he be the DR? 

[Harad the White]

1 minute ago, Ralph said:

What is the last image in the episode stills attached to ep4? Looks like Egwene clutched by some monster? 

Isn't that Balzamon? An incarnation of the Dark One, or a top minion.

[CaddySedai]

22 minutes ago, Harad the White said:

Isn't that Balzamon? An incarnation of the Dark One, or a top minion.

 

If its flame eyes screamy man - then yeah. Its Ba'alzamon. 

Spoiler

The Forsaken Chosen Ishmael

 

Also its newest nickname - coined by me - is Lawnmower Man 2.0 ?

[TheDreadReader]

21 minutes ago, Harad the White said:

That is correct. But what he lands on as "significant" is not motivated by his interactions with Matt. The motivation is the writer's desire to muddy the waters on the DR, since they have laid significant groundwork that he is a great channeler. If Matt can not channel, how can he be the DR? 

 

That is not entirely accurate.  Thom has across two episodes shown a specific interest in Rand and Mat with that interest forming the foundation for all his interactions with both of them together and as separate individuals.   That interest is in line with the interest he has in the books.  The location where he meets them is not a necessary condition for him to have that interest.   Book Thom has the Owyn backstory in his memory when he steps into the Winespring Inn the first time.  He also has it when Mat and Rand step into the tavern at Breen's Spring.   The bit of information that we haven't seen him know is that there was an Aes Sedai present in the two rivers.  

 

Pretty much every piece of dialogue that Thom has with Mat and Rand points to him having reasons to suspect that there is something special about the two.  Regardless of the "mystery", it is entirely possible that show Thom knows or suspects who is Dragon Reborn already and that subtext can underline all his dialogue across both episodes.  The same goes for thinking that one of them can channel.  Just as it goes for him making a connection between the dead Aiel and Rand. 

 

 

[sierramekate]

1 hour ago, Harad the White said:

I went through all the interactions between Thom and Matt in detail (see above). Characters can be mistaken, yes. But their mistakes have to be motivated. There is no overlap between the Owyn story and Thom's experiences with Matt, except that a horse rears while they're in the beginning of a confrontation at the farm (more details above).  Matt never channels in Thom's experience, and everything else is inadequate for Thom's conclusion that he does. That may be "entirely believable" to you and others, but it doesn't reach the plausibility threshold for me.

 

Even if obviously (albet invisible) channelling had happened in a scene with those three, a wrongful attributation could be reasonable, though we don't even have that. I feel like with how condensed the story is, that perhaps some more bonding happened between those three off screen. They must have rode at least 24 hours, leaving the mining town at dusk, & reaching the farm at dusk. Though weeks after covered in this show in an episode, we know that it wasn't much more than maybe two days at the Aes Sedai camp. Perhaps more time passed with Thom & Rand & Matt storyline this week. They are trying to get to the White Tower. If they get there they'll probably arrive before Moiraine, but whether it will be a day or two, or more. *shrugs*

Edited November 28, 2021 by sierramekate

[Ralph]

54 minutes ago, Harad the White said:

Isn't that Balzamon? An incarnation of the Dark One, or a top minion.

 

Doesn't look the same

[Harad the White]

1 minute ago, TheDreadReader said:

The same goes for thinking that one of them can channel.  Just as it goes for him making a connection between the dead Aiel and Rand. 

You haven't said what was inaccurate. Why a connection between Rand and Aiel? Red hair? Unless you meant to say Matt and the Aiel, since he showed up at the body twice. The connection is that Matt wants some funding, as he did in Two Rivers to buy lanterns. That, BTW, was even before he had the Dagger.

 

So the chain of your reasoning is: Thom feels that there is something special. Special means channeling. One or both of Matt and Rand can channel. Since Matt's horse rears once, tada, it's Matt. Doesn't do it for me.

 

Thom doesn't say "We have to keep Rand away from the AS," meaning Thom has already ruled out Rand as the channeler. Thom is not ambiguous. His reasoning and observations point him to Matt as the channeler and not Rand. The is not motivated by events, imho, for Thom. Rather it is the writers desire to muddy the ID of the DR.

 

[Harad the White]

3 minutes ago, sierramekate said:

that perhaps some more bonding happened between those three off screen.

OK. Thom chooses between Rand and Matt due to a lot of important stuff off-screen. That's a get-out-of-logic card.

Edited November 28, 2021 by Harad the White

[flinn]

2 hours ago, Ploodie said:

Of course - I just think that villains are better when they are understandable. Seeing her struggle over wanting to gentle Logain before he can do harm, and seeing that in some ways she was right, that's powerful storytelling. 

I can agree. In my opinion, Gus from Breaking Bad was an incredible villain. But I also dont see Liandrian in the same way you do. I dont see someone trying to stop someone from doing harm. I see someone who loves the ability to do harm to others and looks for any excuse possible. Of course, book knowledge may play into that, but the non-book readers I know who are watching see her as I do.

[Jaysen Gore]

On the villain front, I also enjoy more realistic, motivated antagonists, but I also like the fact that they have increased the emphasis on 2 (3 even, if you count Fain's smirk at Winternight) of the series second tier characters this early. 

 

 

[Harad the White]

18 minutes ago, Ralph said:

 

Doesn't look the same

That picture is misleading. I am looking at the screen right now, and the eyes and mouth are glowing red.