Accents - how will they handle them?

[Daenelia]

12 hours ago, Elgee said:

 

I have no idea! LoL ... He sounded something like this: Wha' ya' doon tday? Go'a go t ban' a' draw moony.

Almost positive that's "Geordie", from Tyne/New Castle. I think it is hardest English accent to understand, because they also have so many specific words, that it is just falling short of being an actual language. Dropping the o from 'to' is a very common Northern thing. Also a lot of glottal stops, skipping letters in the middle of words. (Bottle = boh'-lll.)

It's my favourite accent ?

 

Wouldn't it be fun if we got really unusual accents? I would love a Scandinavian accent (any) for the Two Rivers folks. 

 

I do love to switch between languages when watching a show: putting the German soundtrack under it, or the Portugese.

[Elgee]

10 hours ago, Daenelia said:

Dropping the o from 'to' is a very common Northern thing. Also a lot of glottal stops, skipping letters in the middle of words. (Bottle = boh'-lll.)

 

That does sound exactly like that!

 

Though I agree that it would sound really cool to have some weird and wonderful accents on the show, they might be incomprehensible to most viewers. Maybe they could do them with sub-titles, though *grins*

[Rose]

I'm curious what everyone thought of the accents in the Winespring Inn clip. I absolutely cannot tell native English accents apart besides "does it sound North American or not" so I will have to defer to the rest of you lol

[DaddyFinn]

15 minutes ago, Rose said:

I'm curious what everyone thought of the accents in the Winespring Inn clip. I absolutely cannot tell native English accents apart besides "does it sound North American or not" so I will have to defer to the rest of you lol

I thought the two river folks sounded the same ?

[Anders_nilsson]

A tv-serie that has to explain how a +1000 years isolated area have all imagine ethnic groups won't focus on dialects.

[Elder_Haman]

6 hours ago, Anders_nilsson said:

A tv-serie that has to explain how a +1000 years isolated area have all imagine ethnic groups won't focus on dialects.

Why would they have to explain this? It just is. 

[DaddyFinn]

1 minute ago, Elder_Haman said:

Why would they have to explain this? It just is. 

It's not like the Two Rivers is an island surrounded by a vast ocean and where white people moved thousands of years ago and have prevented anyone else entering ever since.

[AdamA]

Game of Thrones may have tried to do this, but the Stark kids sounded pretty distinct to me. Richard Madden was very obviously Scottish and didn't seem to be making any effort not to sound like it. Maisie Williams and Sophie Turner may have tried to emulate Sean Bean's Yorkshire accent, but they both sounded pretty, I don't even know the name for it, but whatever high-class aristocratic London accent sounds like. Given how hard it is even for English people to emulate different types of English accents, I wouldn't expect much in the way of consistency here. The characters will very likely speak English in much the same way the actors do. They'll also hit the problem Game of Thrones hit with almost all the actors being European but one major character being American and not really being able to do specific English accents at all. But at least in Daniel Henney's case, Lan is the last of his kind, unlike Tyrion, so he doesn't need to worry if he sounds different from everyone else.

[Rose]

3 hours ago, Elder_Haman said:

Why would they have to explain this? It just is. 

 

Every time this topic comes up I have to hold myself back from typing an essay on racial diversity in history. That would be off-topic for this thread though so I'll continue holding back ??

[Morani]

21 hours ago, Rose said:

 

Every time this topic comes up I have to hold myself back from typing an essay on racial diversity in history. That would be off-topic for this thread though so I'll continue holding back ??

I mean, please do! But as a thread of it's own. I would love to read it ? Sounds super interesting. 

[Rose]

12 hours ago, Morani said:

I mean, please do! But as a thread of it's own. I would love to read it ? Sounds super interesting. 

 

I might someday haha

[Anders_nilsson]

On 10/12/2021 at 5:47 PM, Rose said:

 

Every time this topic comes up I have to hold myself back from typing an essay on racial diversity in history. That would be off-topic for this thread though so I'll continue holding back ??

 

But wheel of time is not history. It's fantasy and the books pictures different distinct cultures. Ofc there is great "racial diversity" in hubs like cities, but in small isolated villages? :). 

When i read eye of the world I dont picture Emond's Field as an metropolitan area. It seems so to me that there is a local village with one guy that looks different, Rand. And thats exactly how it worked in rural areas in real world history. There arent "racial diversity" in some farming village in central Finland.

The casting of characters is not derived from the books. Its derived from a certain political view of our world. Hence, dialects becomes a weird subject.

[DaddyFinn]

The believability of racial diversity isn't that important in a world where desert people are fair skinned redheads. It is so because Robert Jordan wanted it to be so.

Edited October 14, 2021 by DaddyFinn

[Rose]

1 hour ago, Anders_nilsson said:

 

But wheel of time is not history. It's fantasy and the books pictures different distinct cultures. Ofc there is great "racial diversity" in hubs like cities, but in small isolated villages? :). 

When i read eye of the world I dont picture Emond's Field as an metropolitan area. It seems so to me that there is a local village with one guy that looks different, Rand. And thats exactly how it worked in rural areas in real world history. There arent "racial diversity" in some farming village in central Finland.

The casting of characters is not derived from the books. Its derived from a certain political view of our world. Hence, dialects becomes a weird subject.

 

What DaddyFinn said. And also, the Wheel of Time world is supposed to be both our past and our future. The entire premise of it means we can draw comparisons with our world.

 

But my point about racial diversity wasn't that. My point was that what you and I think of as racial diversity, and how we determine whether two people are different races or not, is based on criteria that are only a few hundred years old (*insert essay here*, but you can also look it up if you're curious about when and how modern concepts of race came to be). All evidence points to the fact that in many areas of our world that were racially diverse 1000+ years ago (such as the entire Mediterranean region) people literally didn't distinguish between what we today consider to be different races. There were other factors that were way more important in setting people apart, such as nationality, religion, or social status.

 

So what I'm getting at is: what jumps out at us as a modern audience in terms of differences between people is a product of our time. If seeing a variety of skin tones in a (relatively) isolated area is shocking to us, that's an "us" problem. If this show could somehow be shown to people living in Ancient Rome or Egypt, they probably wouldn't bat an eye. They might not even understand what the problem was. They might however wonder why the Mayor is sitting at a table with the "common folk" and why nobody is kissing the high born lady's feet. (I just made these up, if you're an actual Ancient Rome or Egypt expert, don't come at me lol)

 

It's all relative. Our modern cultural sensitivities play a huge role in what we do or don't consider normal, and what breaks our suspension of disbelief. But it's also what makes fantasy fantasy. Taking us out of our normal and imagining different ways for things to be. Like I said in a different thread, a world where race doesn't matter is very appealing to me, so personally, I really love this part of it.

Edited October 14, 2021 by Rose

[Rose]

Now to get back to the accents before this wanders even further off topic: I make a distinction between the actors in real life and the characters they portray. The actors can be from anywhere in the world and speak with different accents, but I hope that they sound at least generally similar when they're in character because they're supposed to have grown up in the same place, so they would have the same dialect and accent in-world. Small differences won't bother me though (mostly because I won't notice them, haha) just like it's inevitable that they won't portray the characters exactly the way I imagined them in my head, and that's fine too. But I'm glad to know that most people seem to think they sounded believable in the clip we got. That's excellent news going forward, because it's also evidence that they put a lot of work into it (do you know how hard it is to learn an accent?) Which bodes well for the care they probably put in other aspects of the show.

Edited October 14, 2021 by Rose

[Anders_nilsson]

10 minutes ago, Rose said:

 

What DaddyFinn said. And also, the Wheel of Time world is supposed to be both our past and our future. The entire premise of it means we can draw comparisons with our world.

 

But my point about racial diversity wasn't that. My point was that what you and I think of as racial diversity, and how we determine whether two people are different races or not, is based on criteria that are only a few hundred years old (*insert essay here*, but you can also look it up if you're curious about when and how modern concepts of race came to be). All evidence points to the fact that in many areas of our world that were racially diverse 1000+ years ago (such as the entire Mediterranean region) people literally didn't distinguish between what we today consider to be different races. There were other factors that were way more important in setting people apart, such as nationality, religion, or social status.

 

So what I'm getting at is: what jumps out at us as a modern audience in terms of differences between people is a product of our time. If seeing a variety of skin tones in a (relatively) isolated area is shocking to us, that's an "us" problem. If this show could somehow be shown to people living in Ancient Rome or Egypt, they probably wouldn't bat an eye. They might not even understand what the problem was. They might however wonder why the Mayor is sitting at a table with the "common folk" and why nobody is kissing the high born lady's feet. (I just made these up, if you're an actual Ancient Rome or Egypt expert, don't come at me lol)

 

It's all relative. Our modern cultural sensitivities play a huge role in what we do or don't consider normal, and what breaks our suspension of disbelief. But it's also what makes fantasy fantasy. Taking us out of our normal and imagining different ways for things to be. Like I said in a different thread, a world where race doesn't matter is very appealing to me, so personally, I really love this part of it.

 

Ethnic diversity in historical path is still not they way that modern movies pictures it. It's an obession with skin colour and "diversity" that don't make much sense. It makes sense for metropolitan areas in the past like Rome or Paris, but not in rural france. You can't explain this with evolution OR how cultures form. Essentially its a product of travel. In a world where people cant travel swift and fast (like whole world today or cities with ports long time ago) there will be a great ethnic diversity. But you forget that most people lived in rural areas. Thats how dialects work, because of isolation.

 

There is no evidence that people in the ancient mediterranean did not care about people that looked different from the main population. It's more reasonable that they did.

From my point of view this casting strategy is more to do with skincolour obsession than just make it more natural.

When I first saw the casting for main characters I thought. Alright, I bet they have a nice explenation for this. For example that diffrent ethnicities where spread out all over the world in the breaking. But I have not seen any notion of that. For me it just don't make sense ?

[Anders_nilsson]

7 minutes ago, Rose said:

Now to get back to the accents before this wanders even further off topic: I make a distinction between the actors in real life and the characters they portray. The actors can be from anywhere in the world and speak with different accents, but I hope that they sound at least generally similar when they're in character because they're supposed to have grown up in the same place, so they would have the same dialect and accent in-world. Small differences won't bother me though (mostly because I won't notice them, haha) just like it's inevitable that they won't portray the characters exactly the way I imagined them in my head, and that's fine too. But I'm glad to know that most people seem to think they sounded believable in the clip we got. That's excellent news going forward, because it's also evidence that they put a lot of work into it (do you know how hard it is to learn an accent?) Which bodes well for the care they probably put in other aspects of the show.

 

 

.....and that was my point really. If they talk the same, for most part they would look the same ?

[Rose]

2 minutes ago, Anders_nilsson said:

 

 

.....and that was my point really. If they talk the same, for most part they would look the same ?

 

That doesn't follow at all. Two people can look nothing alike and still sound the same. One is about genetics, the other is about upbringing.

[Rose]

23 minutes ago, Anders_nilsson said:

Essentially its a product of travel. In a world where people cant travel swift and fast (like whole world today or cities with ports long time ago) there will be a great ethnic diversity.

 

?

 

What makes you think that people don't travel in the Wheel of Time world? Even if we want to argue that nobody travels in or out of the Two Rivers (which isn't true, but fine, let's assume), I'm sure there were massive amounts of travel in the Age of Legends.

 

From a genetics standpoint, travel is necessary to introduce diversity into a population. But if the population is already genetically diverse to begin with, then even if there is no travel for some time, the diversity remains. In the Second Age, there is plenty of basis for a pre-existing diverse gene pool that would lead to a range of phenotypes even in a population that's been mostly isolated in recent generations.

 

If anything, it's the homogenous populations in WoT that make the least sense from a scientific viewpoint. But RJ didn't set out to have his population genetics make sense (see, again: redheads in the desert). So it isn't that helpful to try to make it make sense. It just is, and whether or not we're able to accept it is an us problem.

Edited October 14, 2021 by Rose

[Anders_nilsson]

42 minutes ago, Rose said:

 

That doesn't follow at all. Two people can look nothing alike and still sound the same. One is about genetics, the other is about upbringing.

 

Sure, it happens but it's hardly the norm. Dialects are formed due to isolation and that includes how people look. Time+isolation = homogeneity

[Anders_nilsson]

27 minutes ago, Rose said:

 

What makes you think that people don't travel in the Wheel of Time world? Even if we want to argue that nobody travels in or out of the Two Rivers (which isn't true, but fine, let's assume), I'm sure there were massive amounts of travel in the Age of Legends.

 

From a genetics standpoint, travel is necessary to introduce diversity into a population. But if the population is already genetically diverse to begin with, then even if there is no travel for some time, the diversity remains. In the Second Age, there is plenty of basis for a pre-existing diverse gene pool that would lead to a range of phenotypes even in a population that's been mostly isolated in recent generations.

 

If anything, it's the homogenous populations in WoT that make the least sense from a scientific viewpoint. But RJ didn't set out to have his population genetics make sense (see, again: redheads in the desert). So it isn't that helpful to try to make it make sense. It just is, and whether or not we're able to accept it is an us problem.

 

They do travel, and so did people in our history. But it was slow, and time consuming. It was not enough to create that much of diversity.

 

 

 

[Rose]

3 minutes ago, Anders_nilsson said:

 

They do travel, and so did people in our history. But it was slow, and time consuming. It was not enough to create that much of diversity.

 

 

 

 

I don't think we're understanding each other but that's okay, we can agree to disagree ?

[DaddyFinn]

16 minutes ago, Anders_nilsson said:

 

They do travel, and so did people in our history. But it was slow, and time consuming. It was not enough to create that much of diversity.

 

 

 

Where does it read that people of Manetheren were 100% white?

[Anders_nilsson]

12 minutes ago, DaddyFinn said:

Where does it read that people of Manetheren were 100% white?

 

No where. But i would guess RJ did not even think about explaining that. The topic hardly existed like it does now.

My bet is that RJ pictured Two rivers folk as somewhat central europe looking but in a english culture. Dark in hair and eyes but white. I'm sure RJ would make it clear if Rand was red hair, pale and all the others black :p. Or that everyone looked different from each other. Why make the point that Rand looks different if they all do?

However I don't care at all that two river folks are not white. It's the diversity thing that bothers me :). Would have been much better if they all where whatever skin colour.

There is some info on RJ and this

http://www.steelypips.org/wotfaq/3_sources/3.14_countries.html

RJ has said in interviews, "I live in the Two Rivers - check a map!" Charleston, South Carolina (RJ's hometown) nestles in the fork of the Cooper and Ashley rivers. "

 

And;

"In March of 2000, Paul Ward received a letter from RJ in which he listed what some of the regional accents of Randland sound like:

• Two Rivers - Irish/English
• Illianers - Dutch
• Aiel - somewhat Slavic
• Tairen - Spanish
• Domani - Indian
• Saldaean - Egyptian/North African
• Seanchan - Texas"

[Anders_nilsson]

The direct opposite of how I picture two rivers folk talks and looks are aes sedai that is a mixture of women from all over the place ?