You're In Good Hands: The Beau Tomteer Law Firm Mafia GAME THREAD

[Andrej]

6 minutes ago, Clovdyx said:

Also, if Nyn/Lenlo are teammates, it means both sold out on Hallia.  I don't know if I buy that right now.

 

Considering who abstained Kat (who never plays on the weekend) Darthe (peeked villa) Cass (already explained) and Penguins (said they were gone) that raises the equity that Hallia was bussed by... a lot.

 

I know Hallia would surely encourage her teammates to vote her down in that situation, which makes Nyn intro toDay more unsettling imo.

 

And I get your POV, but all of that removes the scenario that I know I am Town and thus am evaluating the interactions of players from that perspective. Lenlo's reaction to me is something that sticks out considerably in my mind that I can't reconcile.

[Clovdyx]

2 minutes ago, Andrej said:

 

Considering who abstained Kat (who never plays on the weekend) Darthe (peeked villa) Cass (already explained) and Penguins (said they were gone) that raises the equity that Hallia was bussed by... a lot.

 

I know Hallia would surely encourage her teammates to vote her down in that situation, which makes Nyn intro toDay more unsettling imo.

 

And I get your POV, but all of that removes the scenario that I know I am Town and thus am evaluating the interactions of players from that perspective. Lenlo's reaction to me is something that sticks out considerably in my mind that I can't reconcile.

 

I'm going to nitpick you saying that it raises the equity a lot by saying it's entirely possible Kat or Penguins weren't around TO vote - as you said - and are still mafia.

 

If I wanted to make a stupid, unfounded guess as to how things broke down, I would guess one teammate bussed and one didn't.  Pure gut feeling I'm not going to put any stock into.  

 

Le'Shrug

[Nynaeve]

5 hours ago, Andrej said:

 

This doesn't sit right with me btw.

 

You're one player that I know considers yourself a good Hallia reader, so I have a hard time understanding why that wasn't your approach versus trusting the case of someone else you admit to have no meta/experience with. It's not like it's a secret to DMers that Hallia can get tripped up for what seem like contradictions, so like I asked earlier I'm interested to know which parts about Tripped's case that you thought were compelling specifically.

 

?

 

If it doesn't sit well with you, maybe you should stand.

 

That wasnt my approach because I don't have the time to keep current with the game and be able to generate much irt my own reads. I do what I can with the time I have. And I'm typing this from a bus mid the course I'm in. If anyone has an issue with my activity level it's an easy fix. Lynch me.

 

As for your post, I didnt trust anything. I read the case, it was a bloody good one and so I supported her lynch. This has nothing to do with knowing his meta as I wasnt trying to read trip. It was a given he was the accuser and and hallia was up for trial. Not knowing his meta as a player has absolutely nothing to do with his ability to make a valid case, so your point is moot.

 

The point he made that sold me the most was that she was willing to vote someone who was going to accuse another town read of hers, as if she wasn't even aware of it. And if she wasn't aware that meant that her reads were most likely bogus. Hallia is not stupid. So my take was most likely scum than loltownhalli.

 

Added to that was her defense which I found rather flat. And then in the rebuttal she didnt even bother to respond to trip's case. Or give out her own final reads.

 

It all spelled out duh. 

 

 

 

Why did you vote no?

[Nynaeve]

5 hours ago, Cass said:

Awesome work @TrippedOnReality!!

Booo Halleh ?  

 

@Nynaeve 

Do I have to get out the GG?

 

I mean I'd love it if you would but I've been GG deprived for so long =(

[Lenlo]

1 hour ago, Clovdyx said:

 

 

Walk me through this one.

You pretty much explained it.

 

1 hour ago, Clovdyx said:

 

 

I think between the two of you, I would be much more concerned about you than him if Nyn is mafia.  I realize this is definitely a level 1 read, but you defending a teammate seems a lot more plausible than him indirectly attacking a teammate by attacking you for defending his teammate... all pre-flip.  

Its a low level, in your face defense of another player when they had almost no heat and relatively little had happened. What more needs to be said? Its some Occams Razor level crap Chris.

[darc-star]

On 12/1/2018 at 3:14 AM, Cass said:

/Split to keep reads etc separate.

 

WTL

Lenlo, I've explained.

 

Nyn - I get AJ's reasoning on her, and agree that she can be formidable Town. 

 

I would like to keep her around for that and the fact we're friends, but the tone of her focus/responses so far has not been in the vein of what I would personally expect from Town!Nyn! in that she's not coming across as hunty or excited to play and that is a concern for me. As it stands I probably wouldn't fight her lynch. I like to think I can read her ~ok as a person, and can understand when she's having an off/busy day vs. when she's avoiding being Scum, so this may change if she comes back and I feel her responses are genuine for whatever reason she gives.

 

Penguin - I need to see moar but if nothing else is added I would vote Y to lynch with what I've seen. I understand annoyance at mornings and inactivity being the focus - but I tend to believe this grates more when Scum. I don't know his personality or play style to have a starting point, but generally speaking, the fact that it's ALL I've seen him comment on, rather than a head-down bum-up approach when he's here seems scummy to me.

 

Halli - I'm less certain here, and want moar Halli. I don't think the early tone or comment about AJ is clearing enough on its own.

 

I don't think I'd be willing to lynch anywhere else today so far.

 

 

Darthe could be fun/interesting in either position of the courtroom, if he shows up, I'll leave it up to him.

 

Kat - Isn't so much in my WTL as much as I don't think she's a bad vote for either position in this set-up because I really want to see more. I've worded that terribly.

 

 

 

Trying to sort out who else I might be happy with as the Accuser from those left is a whooooolllle other level of tinfoil.

 

Dice often has good gut reads, but leading successful lynches with them is another ball game, so I don't know that I'd put him in that position as yet even if I thought he was Town. He hasn't voiced anything I'd consider AI beyond pushing me into the Accuser spot where I think he'd be unlikely to do it as Scum and defending that position with an explanation I think he'd make as Town.

 

I'm back and forth on Seph, I don't recall anything about his Scum game, and there's a possibility of buddying me, but at the same time, I'm not seeing anything that I can't see/feel from Town. 

 

AJ and Chris and Tripped I might consider, aside from #allthefears.

 

I'd do it if I have to.

 

FWIW - It's the many wordings that I see as potentially leaving wriggle-room/subtle manipulation in Chris' posts that worry me about him. I doubt they could ever be used as proof if he's a Wolf. His overt focus doesn't strike me as Scummy, and I feel like his focus would always be this way, regardless of his alignment.

 

Currently 5 pages behind, but wanna move to my laptop

 

Can you explain why there are some people that you'd have been happy in either position?

Like, you think they're scummy enough that you're happy to lynch them, but you're also happy for them to control the vote?

 

Like your thoughts on dice

And Chris, lol, i agree that he probably says pretty much the same things as either alignment, which is why i can't read him

I do expect his pushes to be different though, and so far they look good

 

On 12/1/2018 at 4:39 AM, Hallia said:

I didn't see him only want to push aj

 

Also,  I'm a trash read darc?   Harsh. 

 

Thanks I guess,  I'm playing at work now,  I'll try to keep up,  even if I'm garbage 

 

Tripped got me

It meant my read was based on a trash reason (so I'm the trash)

 

On 12/1/2018 at 5:13 AM, TrippedOnReality said:

Pretty sure she meant her reasons for suspecting you were trash. Not that you as a player are trash. 

 

❤️

 

On 12/1/2018 at 6:14 AM, Clovdyx said:

 

I will double down that I think making Kat the accuser would have been not the best plan, for multiple reasons tbh.  None of which are super important or relevant to solving the same IMO.  If anybody really cares, let me know.

 

Voting for Kat is/was insanely +EV because I think Kat will respond to loud pressure in a way that is alignment indicative more than I think she will do so proactively, especially early on.  The #1 trait of Kat's towngame is constant paranoia of good players, and she seems to doubt herself a LOT.  Whenever I see her playing a game, it feels like she really has a rough go of trusting people, even when they've things that are probably pretty alignment indicative.  I'm not the least bit surprised she's refused the nomination when I brought her up - I probably would have called for her head if she DIDN'T fight with me over it.  The more people talk about her, the more I expect her to give a meaningful contribution.

 

I really have no idea what to say in terms of meta differences... she's never going to be a super loud, aggressive player early on.  I only remember her pushing someone ONE time total.  But I know she tinfoils, hesitates to give out thoughts, and more or less has to be dragged into the game when she's town.  Her reads lists are usually a whole lot of nulls and "I'd LIKE to trust you..."

 

Sound familiar?

 

That's roughly what i thought, based on her reactions

She does seem to be effected by pressure, so i figured you were hoping to force her to produce some arguments

But in the end, i wanted to vote for someone that i trusted, and wasn't sure I'd be able to change my vote afterwards

 

On 12/1/2018 at 6:39 AM, Nynaeve said:

Cass sounds okay from what I read early on. If she keeps it up through the game then she's probably good.

 

Clov should be kept alive for entertainment value, if nothing else.

 

Chris should never be left alive =O

Like, unless you think he's town... I'd rather win than be entertained

 

On 12/1/2018 at 6:43 AM, Clovdyx said:

 

Tomorrow the clothes come off.

 

Chris should always be left alive

So... It's tomorrow...

 

On 12/1/2018 at 6:45 AM, dicetosser1 said:

@clov    that first hallia thing    thats the hallia snark ive seen a couple times recently   it threw me when i saw it too but she flipped town both times iirc.

 

Can't remember what i was gonna say here

Was probably gonna re-evaluate my read, but...

Any comments on this now, considering?

 

8 hours ago, Nynaeve said:

 

*shrugs* it comes when it comes. It's not like there's a switch. And sometimes I'm just not there. Maybe that's the downside of your method of reading me.

 

This sounds like you think it's his fault for not being able to read you yet?

Do you think he should have a good read on you at this point?

 

6 hours ago, DontTrustThePenguins said:

I think the Hallia flip is good for Clov and Darc and Cass obviously.

 

Then I guess Lenlo because she was just sure of lenlou being town with no reason.

 

I kinda wonder if frustrated!scum!Aj would also moan about his lenlou argument in the qt. If he would then that's better for him I think.

 

Can you explain the last section?

 

6 hours ago, seph said:

What are you wanting me to talk about exactly?  I posted thoughts on her before. I actually thought someone else was the cop so that’s pretty sucky ?

 

 

I like this post from penguin.

 

What made you pick tripped as your seer cover?

 

And not liking the "i didn't kill the cop" hint here

 

6 hours ago, Lenlo said:

Dang. Glad we got a wolf D1, that was some nice sleuthing, but sucks we lost the cop to.

 

AJ, why vote no? Cause with that flip, im lookin at the nos and abstains right now.

 

I dunno, considering just the arguments, and hali barely defending herself at all, I'd think that a no vote might be kinda towny

Abstaining less so

[Clovdyx]

19 minutes ago, Lenlo said:

You pretty much explained it.

 

Its a low level, in your face defense of another player when they had almost no heat and relatively little had happened. What more needs to be said? Its some Occams Razor level crap Chris.

 

Was it?  I'm not going to refute the no heat, and tbh I'm not even sure she had ANY at that point... and very little had happened.  But I don't know if it was really that aggressive of a defense, as much as him saying "I'm not interested in her right now for XYZ".  Impressions are impressions, but I never got the feeling that if I really went at Nyn, he was going to fight me along the way.  Obviously, YMMV

 

Independent of his actions towards Nyn, do you think AJ is likely mafia?

Independent of potentially being teamed with AJ, do you think Nyn is > rand mafia?

[Nynaeve]

@darc-star

I expected him to be able to, yeah. As he usually sees right through me. Usually early on. But it is what it is.

 

The good news at least is that it's a good look for him, seeing as I'd expect him to cozy up as scum as well. So being hesitant is not too horrible.

[Nynaeve]

1 minute ago, Clovdyx said:

 

Was it?  I'm not going to refute the no heat, and tbh I'm not even sure she had ANY at that point... and very little had happened.  But I don't know if it was really that aggressive of a defense, as much as him saying "I'm not interested in her right now for XYZ".  Impressions are impressions, but I never got the feeling that if I really went at Nyn, he was going to fight me along the way.  Obviously, YMMV

 

Independent of his actions towards Nyn, do you think AJ is likely mafia?

Independent of potentially being teamed with AJ, do you think Nyn is > rand mafia?

 

What were his actions towards me?

[Cass]

2 hours ago, Lenlo said:

I voted you cause I liked you more and my vote wasn't doing anything on me. Not to break a tie. Before you were tied, and breaking it in your favor was what I wanted. Then making it a tie gave you a shot at getting it, again what I wanted.

 

I thought you would be a better accuser than Tripped.

 

Tripped chose well though, so it worked out.

 

...What would have made me a better accuser than Tripped, iyo

Not fishing for compliments, but go on...

 AFAICT she was streaks ahead in terms of general game play, confidence, decisiveness etc etc.

 

I'll have to read over again but I'm like 99.9999% sure your initial reasoning was something along the lines of ~I will vote Cass -to break the tie and ensure an accuser~

 

 Followed by -I mean, I wouldn't have an issue with Tripped- etc

 

So the # competition vote seems wobbly?

 

Again, I'll check when I get back, but one main difference I remember was that I had declared Penguins as my likely choice at the point where I was running out of time, and my reads effectively had Halli and Nyn as minor pings/discomforts whereas she was looking more pointedly at Hallia/BWN/Nyn?

[Clovdyx]

1 minute ago, Nynaeve said:

 

What were his actions towards me?

 

He made it clear that he would not support a lynch on you if you were nominated, because he thought he would be able to read you pretty successfully if you're town and you would bring a lot to the table (my words, not his).

 

Then he and Lenlo got into a pretty in depth discussion about it.

[Cass]

Just now, Clovdyx said:

 

He made it clear that he would not support a lynch on you if you were nominated, because he thought he would be able to read you pretty successfully if you're town and you would bring a lot to the table (my words, not his).

 

Then he and Lenlo got into a pretty in depth discussion about it.

 

And there was mention of punching people in the teeth.

 

[Clovdyx]

Just now, Cass said:

 

And there was mention of punching people in the teeth.

 

 

That doesn't sound like me.

 

What's your plan for today?

[Nynaeve]

Just now, Clovdyx said:

 

He made it clear that he would not support a lynch on you if you were nominated, because he thought he would be able to read you pretty successfully if you're town and you would bring a lot to the table (my words, not his).

 

Then he and Lenlo got into a pretty in depth discussion about it.

 

How chivalrous lol

 

[Clovdyx]

Just now, Nynaeve said:

 

How chivalrous lol

 

 

Do you think that's more likely to come from him as one alignment versus the other, or NAI?

[Nynaeve]

Just now, Clovdyx said:

Do you think that's more likely to come from him as one alignment versus the other, or NAI?

 

As a wolf I'd be surprised if he didnt let a d1 lynch on me happen. I mean he could just say nothing and let it happen. Taking an active vocal stand against it seems somewhat unnecessary. Especially if one of the alternatives was a scummate.

 

I'm not keen on his recent post towards me but at the same time I can't really blame him for the suss as I can't be as involved and on top of things. It blows and would get in the way of reading me the way players usually do. So it's something I could see potentially happen.

 

I dunno... hard to see the benefit of that play.

 

What do you make of it?

[Clovdyx]

If anybody wants to weigh in on Lenlo/AJ, I'd love to hear it.  I don't see a world where they're ever mafia together; I see no reason they can't both be town.  And tbh the more I think about it, the more I'm warming up to the idea that AJ could be mafia.

 

Lenlo's push didn't look bad at me, and I've said it before - I thought it was really damn townie of him to just put it out there and try to make something happen.  He seemed aware that he MIGHT be wrong and was willing to deal with that in exchange for having some progress.  I'm not going to wifom myself on whether Mafia!Lenlo gets stuck in an AJ tunnel, but I don't hate what he's said about it at all.

 

AJ felt like he was stretching with the associative read a bit.  I don't expect Town!AJ to say "Lenlo looks good and I look bad if she's mafia", but I don't know that I'd default to "the person that wanted me to consider lynching mafia is probably her teammate."  Beyond that, that 'no' vote sticks out to me.  I'll re-read AJ's D1 to see if it fits with what he said.  I'm not ready to condemn him for that, but I'd also be lying if I said it didn't stick out like a sore thumb.  Darc's point about it being more townie than abstaining probably has ~some merit, but... meh...

[Cass]

2 hours ago, DontTrustThePenguins said:

The Cass thing comes from a point I remember from Tripped about how scum!Hallia seemed to be pocketing and she doesn't think they interact like that teamed. 

 

Lenlou was because she was calling her town with  no real progression. She couuuuld call a teammate town just because, I can't deny that, but giving town reads for nothing seems risky as teammates to me.

 

WhatI mean by my AJ thing too (I think it was @Cass who asked. I skimmed just now in the shop). If AJ is the type of person who would complain in the scum qt, Hallia would be more aware of the AJ/lenlou argument. Her posts didn't have any progression there, so lack of knowing I guess (though that could just be my thing for it).

 

I find this process really awkward but think I can see your case. I disagree that partners wouldn't give each other easy Town leans early on, but you have Len confidently Town, AJ Scum.

 

Tbh I don't think Scum AJ would've been rattled by that interaction,  and Halli would probably have commented/ ignored it either way / shrug. 

 

 

2 hours ago, Clovdyx said:

This means really nothing, but everytime you call Lenlo (who's a he ftr) Lenlou it makes me think of Leelou, who I wish was around more. ?

 And I wonder what they'd be like as hydra.

 

2 hours ago, Andrej said:

IIRC I think Hallia’s intro was calling Cass town and voting her? Could’ve been trying to set her up as a peek. Makes sense from that POV that it was pockety.

This was my initial thought, FWIW  could've been the same with following Len anywhere in his endeavours. 

 

 

2 hours ago, Clovdyx said:

 

 

Walk me through this one.

 

1 hour ago, Clovdyx said:

 

 

Walk me through this one.

 

I lol'd, but thought they'd been pretty clear ?

 

1 hour ago, Clovdyx said:

Does anybody have a reason I shouldn't vote Darcstar today?  

Not so much reason, but a question - why her over you?

 

I mean, I still have #FEAROFCHRIS!!!! but your push of Halli was a little more solid. 

 

?

[Clovdyx]

1 minute ago, Nynaeve said:

 

As a wolf I'd be surprised if he didnt let a d1 lynch on me happen. I mean he could just say nothing and let it happen. Taking an active vocal stand against it seems somewhat unnecessary. Especially if one of the alternatives was a scummate.

 

I'm not keen on his recent post towards me but at the same time I can't really blame him for the suss as I can't be as involved and on top of things. It blows and would get in the way of reading me the way players usually do. So it's something I could see potentially happen.

 

I dunno... hard to see the benefit of that play.

 

What do you make of it?

 

With you being an unknown at the time (and currently, but that's irrelevant)...it was something I disagreed with, but I didn't have a huge issue with.  I understood what he was saying and felt it was reasonable enough he could feel that way.  IIRC it was before even Penguins was a likely candidate, and certainly before Hallia so I can't say he was pushing a potential teammate over you.

 

Basically, I'm trying to give him some more room and wanting to look at something beyond that.  I think it's something to keep in mind, and definitely re-evaluate if/when you flip (and if he flips, use for you), but AJ was one of my strongest townreads from start to finish D1 and I'm not going to burn that just on his approach to you.

[Nynaeve]

You shan't forget I'm also pretty lovable.

 

 

?

 

?

[Clovdyx]

4 minutes ago, Cass said:

 

I lol'd, but thought they'd been pretty clear ?

 

 

Lenlo's was pretty straight forward.  Mostly I was trying to get him talking.  Not going to lie...I feel like I've been doing a lot of the leg work this game, and that's fine... but the more the merrier, ya know?

 

I don't think AJ's was all that clear.  I mean, it was clear what he was saying, but I fundamentally disagreed on principle and wanted him to explain his thought process.  "If the person you were semi-pushing flips mafia, you look bad" doesn't make a ton of sense on the surface level, especially when the person saying it would then be DEFENDING mafia... especially without particularly firm reason.

[Cass]

4 minutes ago, Clovdyx said:

If anybody wants to weigh in on Lenlo/AJ, I'd love to hear it.  I don't see a world where they're ever mafia together; I see no reason they can't both be town.  And tbh the more I think about it, the more I'm warming up to the idea that AJ could be mafia.

 

Lenlo's push didn't look bad at me, and I've said it before - I thought it was really damn townie of him to just put it out there and try to make something happen.  He seemed aware that he MIGHT be wrong and was willing to deal with that in exchange for having some progress.  I'm not going to wifom myself on whether Mafia!Lenlo gets stuck in an AJ tunnel, but I don't hate what he's said about it at all.

 

AJ felt like he was stretching with the associative read a bit.  I don't expect Town!AJ to say "Lenlo looks good and I look bad if she's mafia", but I don't know that I'd default to "the person that wanted me to consider lynching mafia is probably her teammate."  Beyond that, that 'no' vote sticks out to me.  I'll re-read AJ's D1 to see if it fits with what he said.  I'm not ready to condemn him for that, but I'd also be lying if I said it didn't stick out like a sore thumb.  Darc's point about it being more townie than abstaining probably has ~some merit, but... meh...

 

I'm back and forth on this.  Honestly Len could've missed the part where AJ had mentioned Nyn being busy as part of his reasoning - he went on about it should've been mentioned if that was AJ's stance - but I think I find AJs tone more natural so far in their interactions. Idk

 

And am I wrong in thinking AJ-Lenlo are both the type of players to loud fake-clash over something small so that it can be easily remembered but dismissed?

 

Maybe I'm bias to following AJ's train of thought as I find myself TMI baiting people interacting with my partners a lot when I am scum,  but I don't think it's uncommon?

 

And personally, if I'd been partnered with Halli I'd have voted her - what are the chances she gets let off/ there's NL? 

[Clovdyx]

Yeah, but by that same thought process, why would a townie not just vote yes?  Beyond information strategy.   Surely everyone HAD to know we were never going into d2 with a no lynch. 

[Cass]

1 hour ago, darc-star said:

 

Currently 5 pages behind, but wanna move to my laptop

 

Can you explain why there are some people that you'd have been happy in either position?

Like, you think they're scummy enough that you're happy to lynch them, but you're also happy for them to control the vote?

 

Like your thoughts on dice

And Chris, lol, i agree that he probably says pretty much the same things as either alignment, which is why i can't read him

I do expect his pushes to be different though, and so far they look good

 

Do you mean wrt

 

"Darthe could be fun/interesting in either position of the courtroom, if he shows up, I'll leave it up to him.

 

Kat - Isn't so much in my WTL as much as I don't think she's a bad vote for either position in this set-up because I really want to see more. I've worded that terribly."

 

?

 

Darthe was cos he deserved/ deserves pressure (don't care that he's clear!) to contribute more thoughts,  but I also had him posed as my peek so couldn't make it too blunt. At that point I was petrified that with 2 peeks on him he'd possibly coast by on SHC.

 

Kat - like I said,  worded terribly but she isn't/wasn't necessarily Scummy enough for me to be Scum-reading her but I hadnt seen anything that would make me fight anyone for accusing her/I would've liked to hear what she'd say in either position.

 

Neither of them would've been my first preference for either - they were essentially nulls with more advantages to hearing more - if it happened so be it/see what shakes out - IMO it's not so much 'controlling' the vote - a lynch isn't automatic, it depends on the validity and feel of the case put forward. 

 

Hope that makes sense. 

[Cass]

18 minutes ago, Clovdyx said:

Yeah, but by that same thought process, why would a townie not just vote yes?  Beyond information strategy.   Surely everyone HAD to know we were never going into d2 with a no lynch. 

 

Because ?conscience?

 

Eg I _hate_ voting to lynch someone I'm not confident on - just for 'information'/to push someone through - #feelswrong