What to keep, what to drop?

[Jaglover]

16 minutes ago, johnnysd2 said:

 

I guess I just dont see from a narrative standpoint why Season 1 will be weaker. As a comparison it would be way more exciting than the first season of GOT, and it introduces many key elements and characters and the end is phenomenally exciting. i suspect they may incorporate the first few chapters of Book 2 as well and end with the start of the hunt. So maybe 8 episodes for EoTW and 2 for Great Hunt

 

Not necessarily from a narrative standpoint, more from bringing in a general audience sort of point. The sort who loved GOT and are willing to give a new show a try. 

 

Later books add more political conflict, multiple character locations and also a larger element of romance. Whereas book one, for much of its length, is standard quest fare with a fairly dull farmboy chosen one protagonist (Rand becomes much more interesting in later books to me). Added to which the only romantic aspects is Rand and Egwene's chaste relationship and a little at the end with Nynaeve and Lan. 

 

The noises we have heard suggesting that Morraine will be the main focus of season one and with the addition of Logain earlier perhaps means that the showrunners realise EOTW isn't sufficient on its own to be the first season.  Bring in those new elements, bring in flashbacks to the prequels and to Siuan and Morraine's relationship and yes bring in the start of the Great Hunt. But you have to cut some elements to make room. 

 

[Captainwilhelm96]

Judging by the episode titles they're doing EOTW as 5 episodes. The known episode titles are 1. Leavetakings ( the chapter where they leave Emond's Field ), 2. Shadow's Waiting ( the chapter where they enter Shadar Logoth and SL's name in the new tongue ), 3. A Place of Safety, 4. The Dragon Reborn and 6. The Flame of Tar Valon.

[JenniferL]

Try that again without all the swearing. You can make your point without it. I believe in you. 

[DragonFairy]

On 6/26/2019 at 7:38 PM, Captainwilhelm96 said:

Not necessarily since the breaking reshaped the continents and we have no pre-breaking maps and so no way of knowing what the continents looked like in the Age of Legends.

 

What I meant is that we know for certain our continents were not shaped like that in the past, so it would have to be the future. Far future was perhaps a bit exaggeration considering our ever increasing rate of technological advancement, but still considerable future because the Age of Legends lasted quite a long time.

 

On 6/28/2019 at 1:06 PM, Jaglover said:

Take that away and you have different characters in a show called WOT, but not keeping its core. 

 

The characters are central to the story.  Why would we want different characters? It wouldn't be the great series it is without the characters created and his masterful character building.

On 6/28/2019 at 1:16 PM, johnnysd2 said:

 

Not sure I would agree with your sentiments. For many, Perrin's side journey in EoTW is a favorite part of the series.

Not only that, it is ESSENTIAL to his character arc.

 

On 6/28/2019 at 1:16 PM, johnnysd2 said:

In terms of the sex, having a higher degree of nudity and sex outside of the Two Rivers clan can reinforce their backwardness.

Who says they're backward? Just because they're more conservative than a lot of the rest of the world (Randland and the real world) doesn't make them backward. But being exposed to more liberal views on sex and nudity when they leave the Two Rivers does emphasize their conservatism. The two do not go hand in hand, however. In Shienar, men and women bathe together, but men are strictly prohibited from the women's apartments.

And I do not think it's accurate to say only Two Rivers folk are conservative (perhaps just the most). For instance, Faile says a few times she feels as forward as a Domani hussy, implying that Saldeans may lean more to the conservative side. I think what Jordan was going for was different customs in varying degrees of conservatism or liberalism in different countries, not that everyone outside of the Two Rivers has liberal views on sex, and I hope that is how it is presented in the show.

 

22 hours ago, Jaglover said:

Elements have to be taken out of EOTW as well

I think it is safe to say that there will be things taken out of every book, just some more than others.

 

On 6/28/2019 at 3:34 PM, DemandredFO said:

I really wish they would drop pillows, I don't think it will get them significantly more viewers.

 

23 hours ago, Jaglover said:

 

Well the show runner has said (I believe) that they want more diversity including a LGBT element. An easy way to bring that in, without drastically changing any of the core characters, is to develop themes already in the books, hinted at by "pillow friends". Make some of the Aes Sedai bisexual and make others exclusively Lesbian. 

 

It is not to say that this will necessarily improve the show over the books, only that it would then garner positive media attention and also position it more in the adult rather than PG-13 camp. Given that Morraine's relationship with Thom is tacked on at the end she seems an obvious choice to move in that direction. 

 

I wish they would forget about pillow friends too. The only way it adds anything to the story is if they adapt "New Spring" , because the whole idea about pillow friends, as it was presented, was that it was a way for them to deal with the harsh difficulties and loneliness (no boys allowed) of Aes Sedai training.

 

Even that Sea Folk woman who got caught with another woman was married, and she was just lonely for her husband because she had been away from him for a very long time.

 

Dealing with Aes Sedai sexuality is a waste of screen time period, because most Aes Sedai have devoted themselves to serving the White Tower which does not leave room for romance for most of them (Greens excepted obviously). In that way I think it detracts from the story, not enhances it. There are a few references made to men or women who prefer the company of the same sex; I think some mentions here and there are sufficient to get the point across that it exists in Randland.  Heck, romance is only an important part of the story among the main characters anyway. Unfortunately, they have to check those boxes.

 

As far as PG-13 vs R rating, with all the violence, how could it be PG-13 anyway?

 

15 hours ago, johnnysd2 said:

 

I guess I just dont see from a narrative standpoint why Season 1 will be weaker. As a comparison it would be way more exciting than the first season of GOT, and it introduces many key elements and characters and the end is phenomenally exciting. i suspect they may incorporate the first few chapters of Book 2 as well and end with the start of the hunt. So maybe 8 episodes for EoTW and 2 for Great Hunt

 

I agree totally. The foundation for the characters and the world is set in EotW. The Emond's Fielders learn that all of these monsters they thought were just made up for scaring naughty children are real (and more); they see the awesome things Aes Sedai can do with the OP and it awes and scares them; Egwene and Nyaneave learn that they can channel; Perrin learns he can talk to wolves; all three boys learn they are taveren and at the end Rand learns he can channel. I've read it four times, and the fourth I still couldn't put it down!

 

It is confirmed that Episode 6 of Season 1 is titled "The Flame of Tar Valon", so it seems that will be the start of TGH. So hopefully five episodes for each book.

 

14 hours ago, johnnysd2 said:

 

Sex sells, though I dont think it will be raunchy like GOT. 

 

 

Sad commentary on our society. It used to be "it's nobody's business what people do in their own bedrooms". Now people want to see it all over their tv screens.

But I agree that I don't think they will take it to the degree GoT did. Lord I hope not. I noticed the sex decreased in the later seasons. I guess with it's popularity they figured it wasn't as necessary.

Edited June 30, 2019 by DragonFairy

[Jaglover]

3 hours ago, DragonFairy said:

I wish they would forget about pillow friends too. The only way it adds anything to the story is if they adapt "New Spring" , because the whole idea about pillow friends, as it was presented, was that it was a way for them to deal with the harsh difficulties and loneliness (no boys allowed) of Aes Sedai training.

 

Even that Sea Folk woman who got caught with another woman was married, and she was just lonely for her husband because she had been away from him for a very long time.

 

Dealing with Aes Sedai sexuality is a waste of screen time period, because most Aes Sedai have devoted themselves to serving the White Tower which does not leave room for romance for most of them (Greens excepted obviously). In that way I think it detracts from the story, not enhances it. There are a few references made to men or women who prefer the company of the same sex; I think some mentions here and there are sufficient to get the point across that it exists in Randland.  Heck, romance is only an important part of the story among the main characters anyway. Unfortunately, they have to check those boxes.

 

As far as PG-13 vs R rating, with all the violence, how could it be PG-13 anyway?

 

 

I think some have mentioned that Amazon like to have some political messages in their shows and there are rumours that the showrunners wish to bring in more diversity, including an LGBT element. Added to which the show would no doubt garner considerable positive media attention with such an element.

 

With that as I given I am asking how this can be tastefully included, without compromising the core story. If they suddenly turned Matt or Perrin Bi-curious for example then that would ruin the characters as written.

 

With Morraine we already know she has dabbled and her romance with Thom is tacked on at the very end. It would not change any aspect of the core story if she were a Lesbian. Then her and Siun would be bound not only by a common cause, secrecy and deep ties, but also potentially by love, and that could be one of the core relationships of the early seasons, which, even if you expand out Nynaeve and Lan, is rather lacking in that department.

 

The only other key character you could make gay with no impact on the story, IMO, is Galad and that fits the early books better in any case.  

Edited June 30, 2019 by Jaglover

[Jaglover]

3 hours ago, DragonFairy said:

 

Sad commentary on our society. It used to be "it's nobody's business what people do in their own bedrooms". Now people want to see it all over their tv screens.

But I agree that I don't think they will take it to the degree GoT did. Lord I hope not. I noticed the sex decreased in the later seasons. I guess with it's popularity they figured it wasn't as necessary.

 

My wife wouldn't watch GOT with me after the first season party due to all the nudity and sex so yes they took it to extremes in GOT and probably went too far the other direction in the last few seasons.

 

Hopefully in WOT we are not going to get "sexposition" and nudity just for the sake of it but are going to get sex within relationships and something to bring in the general audience. 

[DemandredFO]

Pillow friends isn't about checking boxes and anyone who knows or gets interested in the books will know that. It's a blatant attempt to inject sex into story. Does this mean their Middle-earth series will have sex scenes, I know, maybe Aragon and Arwen could have a secret tryst.

[Dagon Thyne]

The showrunners have already clearly stated that they intend to bring the same sex relationships out of the background of the story.

 

They have suggested that they plan to turn Rand's love triangle into a more Polyamourous relationship, with the women being in love with each other as well as Rand.  This means that they could add a lesbian story arc for Elayne and Aviendha.  

[Jaglover]

5 hours ago, Dagon Thyne said:

The showrunners have already clearly stated that they intend to bring the same sex relationships out of the background of the story.

 

They have suggested that they plan to turn Rand's love triangle into a more Polyamourous relationship, with the women being in love with each other as well as Rand.  This means that they could add a lesbian story arc for Elayne and Aviendha.  

That could work I guess

 

Done well, and tastefully, adding LGBT elements to WOT is no more going to ruin it than showing Renly and Loras together ruined GOT. It has to be done right though and not be simply gratuitous on the one hand, or ruining the characters on the other.

 

A Polyamorous relationship between the four is a good example where you are not changing the core story much as far as I can see. Also shouldn't that be a love quadrangle

[johnnysd2]

6 hours ago, Jaglover said:

That could work I guess

 

Done well, and tastefully, adding LGBT elements to WOT is no more going to ruin it than showing Renly and Loras together ruined GOT. It has to be done right though and not be simply gratuitous on the one hand, or ruining the characters on the other.

 

A Polyamorous relationship between the four is a good example where you are not changing the core story much as far as I can see. Also shouldn't that be a love quadrangle

 

I get a feeling they are cutting Min. I hope not but we will see. TBH they were all close enough in the books that Polyamorous wouldnt really be that big of a stretch.

[DemandredFO]

If they cut Min, someone has to take her role of keeping Rand grounded until Gathering Storm and Min is basically there only for worldbuilding and play with knives. Also many, many more people know Arthurian and Norse Mythology than know who Cassandra was.

[Dagon Thyne]

7 hours ago, Jaglover said:

That could work I guess

 

Done well, and tastefully, adding LGBT elements to WOT is no more going to ruin it than showing Renly and Loras together ruined GOT. It has to be done right though and not be simply gratuitous on the one hand, or ruining the characters on the other.

 

A Polyamorous relationship between the four is a good example where you are not changing the core story much as far as I can see. Also shouldn't that be a love quadrangle

It would defiately make those 5 page bath scenes FAR more interesting XD

[Jaglover]

10 hours ago, johnnysd2 said:

 

I get a feeling they are cutting Min. I hope not but we will see. TBH they were all close enough in the books that Polyamorous wouldnt really be that big of a stretch.

That's a pretty big decision if they do. Not only is Min the one who stays with Rand most of the time in the later books, she is also present at other key events like the schism at the white tower.

 

I know they have to cut large chunks out, maybe even entire books, but I was hoping that wouldn't include what I would consider to be the core characters. 

 

Edited July 2, 2019 by Jaglover

[Dagon Thyne]

I think they will have Min still there, but they might cut her relationship with Rand.  I think they will end up being close friends instead of lovers, and Min's part in the story will be her being an associate of Moiraine's more than her being in love with Rand.  I do think her visions will play a part of the story though.  

[agreddon]

On 10/5/2018 at 2:28 PM, Maedelin said:

Oh Light.  Will they keep the Aes Sedai ageless looking face?  If they keep it, how would they show it?  I do not think I can even explain how I see it in my head. xD

 

What does everyone else thing?

I think that's something that will be glossed over or just ignored.

[agreddon]

3 hours ago, Dagon Thyne said:

I think they will have Min still there, but they might cut her relationship with Rand.  I think they will end up being close friends instead of lovers, and Min's part in the story will be her being an associate of Moiraine's more than her being in love with Rand.  I do think her visions will play a part of the story though.  

No way.  I think Min and Rand's is possibly the strongest relationship that they have going.  If anything this needs to be expanded.

[Jaglover]

2 hours ago, agreddon said:

No way.  I think Min and Rand's is possibly the strongest relationship that they have going.  If anything this needs to be expanded.

I would agree with this.

 

Aviendha and Elayne spend most of their time away from Rand, particularly Elayne. In fact Elayne spent so little time with Rand you have to question how she came to decide she was in love with him.

 

Min is going to be with Rand all the way as he struggles with his darkness and also brings in a perspective that isn't powerful source user but a more normal woman.

 

Sure they are going to cut cast members and create composite characters (I don't see how they can do otherwise) but there is a core to the story without which you don't have WOT.   

 

[Dagon Thyne]

11 hours ago, Jaglover said:

I would agree with this.

 

Aviendha and Elayne spend most of their time away from Rand, particularly Elayne. In fact Elayne spent so little time with Rand you have to question how she came to decide she was in love with him.

 

Min is going to be with Rand all the way as he struggles with his darkness and also brings in a perspective that isn't powerful source user but a more normal woman.

 

Sure they are going to cut cast members and create composite characters (I don't see how they can do otherwise) but there is a core to the story without which you don't have WOT.   

 

 

 

None of them DECIDED they loved him.  They all knew it the moment they met him.   They were draw into loving him by his nature as a Ta'veren.  

[DemandredFO]

Yeah, no one in WOT, at least none of the main characters, decided the loved who they married. Rand it was Ta'veren, Mat accidentally married Tuon and Faile and Perrin were ta'veren. Nyneave was love, Egwene was so Gawyn wouldn't be completely useless as a character.

[Jaglover]

1 hour ago, DemandredFO said:

Yeah, no one in WOT, at least none of the main characters, decided the loved who they married. Rand it was Ta'veren, Mat accidentally married Tuon and Faile and Perrin were ta'veren. Nyneave was love, Egwene was so Gawyn wouldn't be completely useless as a character.

From memory Aviendha spent enough time with Rand to full in love the old fashioned way.  Wasn't she responsible for teaching him Aiel ways?

[mandersen]

13 minutes ago, Jaglover said:

From memory Aviendha spent enough time with Rand to full in love the old fashioned way.  Wasn't she responsible for teaching him Aiel ways?

Yes, and to me her’s was the best falling in love journey of the three. After they hooked up their relationship was quite boring for a long time though. Min was the best relationship, but the leading up to it wasn’t as entertaining. Then there’s Elayne, who I don’t mind as a character but overall has the most boring story arc of any of the secondary characters, including her relationship with Rand. Her relationship with Aviendha is far more interesting. So yeah, I could see them turning that into a romantic thing.

[Dagon Thyne]

I kinda hope they drop Egwene's final arcs, with the "flame of Tar Valon" and have Logan and the Asha'man be the ones who fight the final battle with Taim and his dreadlords.

 

It would be far more fitting for the TRUE Asha'man to defeat the ones who betrayed them.  

 

 

[DemandredFO]

First it has to get to the end but yes I think the end will be different if they get there. The last battle was a bit of a mess, probably because RJ took too long getting the story to book 11, didn't leave enough notes and Brandon didn't have enough time to do it properly. After all, you don't name a place Caemlyn in a story chock full of Arthurian mythology and then destroy it off screen.

[DragonFairy]

On 6/30/2019 at 10:23 PM, DemandredFO said:

Pillow friends isn't about checking boxes and anyone who knows or gets interested in the books will know that. It's a blatant attempt to inject sex into story. Does this mean their Middle-earth series will have sex scenes, I know, maybe Aragon and Arwen could have a secret tryst.

 

A blatant attempt to inject sex into a story is checking a box too. They're the boxes of what sells and/or makes the show politically correct so as to garner positive media coverage.

 

So, we know there are going to be pillow friends. Why is has to be out the wazoo I can't understand. Having them just to have them does not enhance the story.

 

I have very specific reasons why making certain characters gay or bi will actually hurt the story.

Moiraine and Siuan were pillow friends in their novice days. In New Spring I think it is, it is explained that novices and accepted engage in this activity because of the stress and loneliness they experience during their training and they are basically cut off from the outside world, which includes men. The WoT Companion states that this behavior usually ended when the women were raised to the shawl. So, reference to Moiraine and Siuan's previous relationship is one thing, but to make Moiraine a lesbian is totally inconsistent with her character. For one, she is totally consumed by her search for the Dragon Reborn, to the exclusion of all else. Secondly, her relationship Thom appears to come out of nowhere toward the end of the series, but there are very subtle hints as early as TGH. My hope is the show will make those hints a little more obvious so that it will not seem to come out of nowhere. Making Moiraine a lesbian will just make her marriage to Thom totally incongruous.

 

Mat is a lady's man--that is a big part of his character. And although he marries Tuon by accident, he does come to find her attractive and to care for her. So no, he can't be gay.

And Perrin? That's laughable! He falls in love with Faile in book 4 and marries her in book 5, and she is pivotal to his character development. And although they will encounter different views on sexuality outside of the Two Rivers, the Two Rivers, where Perrin and Faile become Lord and Lady, is a quaint, ultra conservative area where homosexuality would not be accepted. If you make any of the Emond's Fielders homosexual, you have to change the nature of the place where they grew up too.

 

Aviendha and Elayne--the whole reason Aviendha is so hateful toward Rand when she is forced to stay with him all the time and tutor him is because she is falling in love with him and feels guilty toward Elayne. Make her a lesbian and you totally lose that dynamic. Elyane becomes pregnant with Rand's children! And one of Min's viewings shows that her babies will be born safely, so she takes all kinds of stupid risks she would not otherwise take because she feels completely safe due to Min's viewing. Plus, there is something about feeling such a strong bond to each other that they become first sisters. That's for life. Romantic relationships are not necessarily.

 

Egwene actually could end up being a lesbian because no one likes Gawyn or their romance anyway. Not to mention they both die the day after they are married (she never returns to Emond's Field), so really nothing lost there. And they could start by having Egwene wonder why she is not attracted to either Galad or Gawyn, two extremely handsome men that other women fawn over. Gawyn can still be her warder however.

 

On 7/1/2019 at 2:24 PM, johnnysd2 said:

 

I get a feeling they are cutting Min. I hope not but we will see.

 

What gives you that feeling?  I think she is too pivotal to be cut, and I don't even like her that much.

Edited July 6, 2019 by DragonFairy

[johnnysd2]

5 hours ago, DragonFairy said:

 

 

What gives you that feeling?  I think she is too pivotal to be cut, and I don't even like her that much.

Re: cutting Min. Just a preponderence of little things. Rafe as far as I can recall has never mentioned her, plus San Derson has hinted at some big changes, and from Rafes comments it seems Egwene, Nynaeve, *Aviendha, Elayne are all in so I am not sure what other "major" character could be cut? As much as I am not a huge fan, I don't think they'd cur Perrin. 

 

In terms of pillow friends, it would totally make sense for Avi to be bisexual, and a realistic relationship with Elayne could grow out of that.