Theories, Twists, Turns and The Last Battle

[missinginstereo]

So, having begun rereading the books i came across something that hit me as a bit odd. I've had a hard week so forgive me if i've forgotten the evidence to back up my theory but something was said in one of the first 3 books that led me to believe that perhaps Logain may not turn out to be one of Rands saviours, instead he may be the one who kills our beloved dragon. We're all busy looking at Taim, but i think Logain may just prove to be a whole lot more important.

 

Also, Moiraine. Is she dead? Could she perhaps return to save the day or maybe even return as a darkfriend? Who will survive to face the last battle and who will live through the fighting? I feel that there may be a great deal of plot twists yet to come from Mr Jordan.

Discuss.

[Beckon]

We know for a fact as of tKoD that Moiraine is coming back via her letter to Thom, though I think most have guessed it pretty much since tFoH was released.

 

Min sees glory for Logain...it could be that Logain somehow helps facilitate the whole "to live you must die" scenario for Rand.

[missinginstereo]

Opht, i forgot about that letter :oops: But the debate on what role she will play still stands and what exactly will happen to Lan's bond.

[Pevin]

I've always thought that the Taim=bad and Logain=good situation is a little too...simplistic and straight forward for Jordan. I don't have any proof for it, but I'd at least like to see those expectations become more complicated.

 

About a year ago, I suggested that Logain might turn out to be Demandred, but that idea got blasted out of the water. But I wouldn't mind seeing a twist like that.

[Phiotr AlManera]

Does anybody know exactly what Min said about Rand needing Moiraine to win TG?

 

Doesn't anybody have a vision or a dream or something like that of Logain stepping over Rand's body?

[Beckon]

What good to tell him he would almost certainly fail without a woman who was dead and gone?

 

ACoS, Ch. 35

[Luckers]

Logain, laughing, stepped across something on the ground and mounted a black stone; when she looked down, she thought it was Rand's body he had stepped over, laid out on a funeral bier with his hands crossed at his breast, but when she touched his face, it broke apart like a paper puppet.

[Gladiator3003]

I have a feeling that Logain's gonna get annoyed with Rand not dealing with the Black Tower and attempt to deal with Taim with his own faction. This will result in a gigantic battle (The BT being rent in blood and fire) and Rand finally stepping in and doing something but being killed by Taim.

 

"Twice to live and twice to die" refers specifically to Rand, not LTT, living twice and dying twice. He's lived once, is probably going to die at the Black Tower, is going to live again after that and die at Tarmon Gai'don and live a third time afterwards. (The Prophecies never mention anything after TG, whats stopping him from living a third time?)

 

Why? Because the prophecy involving Logain standing over Rand's body, etc, etc, mentions Rand's body being on a black rock. Which places have a black rock large enough for a body to lie on? Shayol Ghul and the Black Tower (Remember the platform Rand uses to address the Asha'man from?). I have a feeling that this doesn't refer to Shayol Ghul, as that's too obvious for prophecy, and as we've seen in this series, prophecy is generally fulfilled in a different way than the obvious way.

 

Taim's probably going to hit the crippled Rand with one of his weaves that he teaches to his faction, Rand's going to drop onto the black rock, dead, Logain's going to see this, balefire Taim to oblivion and resurrect Rand, thus fulfilling many prophecies at once (Including the one which states Twice the Dragon for the price he must pay, which I've taken literally to mean that this is the price he's going to pay for handing out the Dragon pin to Taim first.) Logain's glory will be fulfilled, Rand will be back to his normal crippled state, the Black Tower will have been rent in fire and blood, etc, etc.

 

As for another theory, I think that the only way to deal with Rand's wounds in his side would be for Nynaeve and Flinn to link, and Heal him with a mixture of saidin and saidar. Because hasn't it always been said that the greatest achievements in the AoL have been done with linked men and women? With Cadsuane and Nynaeve interrogating Semirhage, it's not too far-fetched that Nynaeve could learn some new Healing weaves (Probably involving Fire and Earth) and then link with Flinn (Arguably the best male healer) and Heal Rand's side.

 

Just a few theories I've been kicking around for a while, comments would be appreciated.

[HoppyQ]

"Twice to live and twice to die" refers specifically to Rand, not LTT, living twice and dying twice.

 

I thought the twice was refering to his markings, the two herons on his palms and the two dragons on his arms. Marked twice to live and marked twice to die.

[Phiotr AlManera]

I like your first theory, Gladiator.

But I think the battle of the Black Tower will involve one or more Forsaken, Demandred or Graendal perhaps.

 

What's the full prophesy on Rand dying and living? Aren't there two?

[Gladiator3003]

It's a possibility that one of the Forsaken will attack, but I don't think Demandred will be the one to do it (It's most likely that Demandred's in Murandy, as shown by another topic in here). Graendal might attack, does anyone know whereabouts she is at the moment?

[missinginstereo]

What about the 2 who were brought back by the dark one? I can't remember if we ever figured out their identities.

MAN, i really need to get back to these books

[Gladiator3003]

Osan'gar = Dashiva = Dead

Aran'gar = Halima = Alive but unknown status

[missinginstereo]

Ahhh. And now i've forgotten who they were. Ugh, must read books.

[Guest Barmacral]

"Twice to live and twice to die" refers specifically to Rand' date=' not LTT, living twice and dying twice.[/quote']

 

I thought the twice was refering to his markings, the two herons on his palms and the two dragons on his arms. Marked twice to live and marked twice to die.

 

Twice and Twice he will be marked,

Twice to live and twice to die,

Once the Heron to mark his path,

Twice the Heron to name him true,

Once the Dragon for remembrance lost,

Twice the Dragon for the price he must pay

 

I think that it defines the markings seperately in the passage from the dying bit myself...

 

Oh yea, and if I got any of the passage wrong, I'm sorry, I took that completely off the top of my head.

[Gladiator3003]

Dashiva = Was one of the Asha'man, ended up toasted at the Cleansing.

 

Halima = Delana's secretary, was in the Rebel AS camp channeling saidin to give Egwene headaches and other stuff.

[missinginstereo]

Ahh, was it revealed that it was them or was it easy to piece together?

I remember thinking it was Lanfear and someone else at first :roll:

[Gladiator3003]

Halima was easy to deduce from Aran'gar's constant descriptions of her heaving bosom and perfect figure, etc, and how Osan'gar noted that it was rather ironic that Balthamel had been put into a female body, since Bal was a lecher.

 

I think that Osan'gar stated himself that he was annoyed with running around as Dashiva constantly, just before being toasted at the Cleansing.

[Beckon]

Dashiva we didn't know til, well I'd need to finish rereading to say exactly when but it wasn't obvious.

 

Halima just showed up in Delana's rooms making the Black Ajah sign and said "Asan'gar".

[Gladiator3003]

Dashiva we didn't know til' date=' well I'd need to finish rereading to say exactly when but it wasn't obvious.

 

Halima just showed up in Delana's rooms making the Black Ajah sign and said "Asan'gar".[/quote']

 

Page 667 of Winters Heart, paperback UK copy:

 

"Crouching behind a fallen log, Osan'gar panted from the exertion of running. Those months spent masquerading as Corlan Dashiva had not made him any fonder of exercise."

[HoppyQ]

Barmacral, I think you quoted it pretty close to right on. I guess it's just a matter of interpretation, because I still think, especially when looking at the entire quote, the twice to live and twice to die is refering to the markings in the prior line. Look at the phrasing twice and twice...twice to live and twice to die. And then it goes on to identify each marking. It just doesn't make sense to me that it would number the markings in the first line then skip over to numbering the live and die and then jump back to naming the markings. I think the line refers more to turning points than actual life and death. The twice to live means that the two herons marked him as the DR, in a sense the DR didn't live until he was marked. The twice to die; once for rememberance lost, after going through the rings and learn of his real parents, Rand Al'Thor died in a sense because he finally admitted to himself that he wasn't Tam and Kari's son. The twice is for the price he must pay - his blood on the rocks of SG. Sorry, I kind of rambled but that just makes more sense to me than if the line were to simply mean he physically dies and lives twice. That's just too straight forward considering they way everything else twists and turns.

[Elwinn Taron]

Well, I'm kinda embarrassed :oops: I always thought--well, since KoD anyway--that "Twice the Dragon, for the price he must pay." was about losing his left hand. Therefore, if he only had the left dragon, like other clan cheifs, he lost that marking and the heronmark on that hand.

[missinginstereo]

I've always wondered about Coreanin Nadeal, the dreamer. She's mentioned alot and i wonder if it's merely filler or if she might have a role to play in some way or another.

[Siswaiaman]

shes long dead, by 273 years. How is she going to affect anything?

[Leopoled Boothe]

I think that somehow Rand litterally will die and live again though I'm not sure exactlly how it will happen. I do think that the world will continue to believe that Rand is dead and that Logain will become the new M'Hael and history will remember him and not Rand as The Dragon Reborn (hence Logain's glory and the image of him mounting a black rock while Rand's image fades away). Rand having had his fill of the limelight will be perfectly happy with this arangement and will decide to retire into the humble and quiet life of a begger (hence Min's viewing in TEotW of a begger's staff). RJ has said that Nynaeve is in the final scene so I see it happenign like this, Nyn who has traditionally been tight with her purse but is now a new woman for having survived TG will see a begger who is veiled and has his head covered so that only his eyes are visible. She will take pitty and decide to give the begger a handsom donation. As she walks away she will begin to think to herself about how there was something strangly familiar about the beggars blue/grey eyes thus giving the reader the impression that the begger is indeed Rand. We will be left to wonder if she actually figured out that it was Rand or whether or not she decided to out him.