Confrontations

[Draven]

Verin outsmarting Cadsuane then. Oh, and I meant to say "omniscient" not omnipotent.

[Blue]

Id like to see Cadsuane taken down a peg or two preferably by Moiraine but Verin would be ok too i suppose and i agree with anyone who cant stand Faile and would like to see die avery painful death :D

[mightisright]

Cadsuane vs Rand

 

Don't think it will ever happen, but I wish it would. Now everyone else seems to side with Cadsuane and agree that Rand is a crazy, whiney, arrogant baby, and I agree partially. But Cadsuane has pushed and pulled at Rand from the moment she is introduced and still tries to steer him toward her goals, - nevermind you if its the right course or not.

 

She is the one who showed up and began bothering him uninvited. Who is she to bother the Dragon Reborn? An arrogant question, but one worth asking. She could have come to him in sincerity and openess but did not. Instead she seems to believe he is hers to mold. Well RJ may love his 'strong' aunt characters but I find them dispicable. Where is the open love and kindness? (anyone that stays around Rand a while should love him for his selflessness and sacrifices if nothing else) Where is the reason and argument? We catch rare glimpses when Rand is out of commission but she never gives HIM a clear idea.

 

Now now you will all argue that Rand needs and deserves the lessons he is getting from Cadsuane and that her methods are justified and in fact the only way to reach his arrogant self these days. You are dead wrong. And while i'm at it, you are also dead wrong about Egwene (cause they are the same character and if you like one you like the other and vice versa).

 

Cadsuane is like Moiraine before necessity put Moiraine in her place. The Dragon is to be helped but not molded. Now I would agree that this is NOT the direction RJ is going with it, but it is the direction he should have went. Hrrrmph, back to the subject - A battle where Rand kills Cadsuane would make the series for me. I would cheer and cry repeatedly before pledging myself the Dragon's man forever.

 

In general I like Mat's interaction with women characters much more then anyone else (like u didn't see that coming). He doesn't get pushed around, but he is noble and reasonable with them. And no, getting sexually assualted by a good looking women does not qualify as getting pushed around...

[Luckers]

Cadsuane is completely different to Moiraine. She is not trying to guide or dictate to Rand. She has noticed a problem in his nature and she has openly set herself to fix it. She speaks her suggestions openly, and they are only ever just suggestions. If Rand doesn't do as she says, then she thinks him a fool, but she doesn't push her opinion on him.

 

I have the utmost respect for Cadsuane and what she is trying to achieve.

 

You frown because someone actually dares to treat Rand like a child having a tantrum, when in fact he is behaving like a child having a tantrum--well thats fine, just dont be surprised when the rest of us dont.

[mightisright]

Well first of all its not Cadsuane's place to 'fix' Rand's nature. That overstuffed old hag should worry about her own condescending nature first. Secondly, I can think of at least one part where Cadsuane at least contemplates interfering right off the top of my head. She wonders whether she should stop his plan to make a treaty with the Seanchan. Thirdly, telling Rand she is going to teach him manners is NOT divulging her plans. Too vague and arrogant of her.

 

Rand's genuine good nature would 'repair' itself just as well if Cadsuane had been strait with him from the beginning and pledge openly to only aid him and not hinder his efforts. She has been doing better lately but needs a lesson in humility. Rand is above her. He is just as good natured (actually more so), infinitely stronger in the power, and just as wise. His tantrums as you name them (much like Cadsuane and Egwene....) are justified and understandable under the circumstances, if Cadsuance cannot understand the stress he is under and make open and friendly efforts to reason with him thats her problem.

[Luckers]

Well first of all its not Cadsuane's place to 'fix' Rand's nature.

 

Why not? It's whoever percieves the problem and decides to do something about it's place.

 

God, all this talk of peoples places, and Rand putting women in their places... it reeks.

 

That overstuffed old hag should worry about her own condescending nature first.

 

Whats to worry about? She gets her job down, and if she has to belittle someone you admire to do it then that is of no reguard. What is of a reguard is that she is in the right. Rand is acting like a petulant child, and she's treating him thus.

 

Secondly, I can think of at least one part where Cadsuane at least contemplates interfering right off the top of my head. She wonders whether she should stop his plan to make a treaty with the Seanchan.

 

No, she states that she thinks it will be unpopular. She makes no move to oppose it through any form of manipulative means. She simply states her opinion, then leaves him to do what he thinks he must.

 

Thirdly, telling Rand she is going to teach him manners is NOT divulging her plans. Too vague and arrogant of her.

 

Well since that is her plan, your gonna have to deal with it. She has never acted behind Rands back, or in anything other then his best interest.

 

Rand's genuine good nature would 'repair' itself just as well if Cadsuane had been strait with him from the beginning and pledge openly to only aid him and not hinder his efforts.

 

No, it wouldn't. Proof of that is that he was steadily getting worse before she came. And where has she hindered his efforts?

 

Rand is above her. He is just as good natured (actually more so), infinitely stronger in the power, and just as wise.

 

Since when is Rand above her? He's the prophesized hero... well wooptido. He's still making an ass of himself. Strength in the power is irrelevant. It's like saying 'that guy has huge arms, he's better then you'. And as wise? thats just blatantly wrong. Oh, he can be clever, but he understands nothing of wisdom or people. He is about as unwise as they come.

 

The wise course is to bind people to him loyally, instead he pushed them away. The wise course would have been to listen to Logain, then make a decision, and thus gain his support rather then dismissing him out of hand because Rand feels threatened. Instead he acts like a bully in a schoolyard.

 

His tantrums as you name them (much like Cadsuane and Egwene....) are justified and understandable under the circumstances

 

Cadsuane and Egwene methodology is entirely different, and utterly reasonable. They will listen, and if they don't agree, well they will still continue in their current path. Rand throws his strength around like it actually means something, expecting everyone to fall in line out of fear of his emotional distress. That is what a tantrum is.

 

Right now everytime things dont go his way he throws a tantrum. Cadsuane responds to this with casual disdain that makes him look foolish. Thats his fault, not hers. If he grew up then he could be her equal. She isn't stopping him.

[Draven]

I have to say that Cadsuane is indeed one of my least favorite characters, so I symphatize with you, Might! I don't recall much detail regarding the relationship between Rand and Cadsuane, but I've never liked her from the beginning. Rand is the Dragon Reborn and deserves some respect from anyone! So what if Rand treated the Aes Sedai the way he did after Dumai's Wells? They deserved it since he can't trust any of them, and all they've ever done is manipulate him and the rest of the world - well, except those who want him dead! The way Cadsuane would just slap the most powerful man in Randland is repulsive in a sense that this woman isn't even close to Rand, and that she came from nowhere!

 

But then again it's because of the formula RJ created in which every man should be leashed by a woman (except the Whitecloaks - and, man, how they suck!). Rand was the one person many of us can identify with after Perrin lost his head to Faile, and Mat had become a total wimp when it comes to women (e.g, having been manipulated by Egwene and by queen what's-her-face in book 7).

 

Or maybe somewhere along the road, RJ actually tried to get away with the superior Rand, but Harriet coughed in his back and he said something like "Sorry

dear..." And went on to create Cadsuane for his wife.

:D

[Luckers]

Rand is the Dragon Reborn and deserves some respect from anyone!

 

Respect is earned, not expected. Rand acts like an impudent child, and is treated as such.

[Draven]

Rand is the DR and deserves some slack, having accomplished a lot already despite being young and half-mad with saidin; and with having sacrificed everything to save reality for people who don't give a flying f*ck about him. (So that doesn't deserve respect?) That's why he's allowed to control most of the world, and having 3 women in his bed (well, maybe not in his bed, but...) - and doesn't need an "add-on" character that was created only to serve the purpose of saying "Hey folks, it's still the same ol' women-over-men-thing despite what you've read about Rand in past chapters!"

 

Besides, it's just typical of the author to create a reason for Rand to be subservient to a woman ("Min said I need her.") when it's logical to say that Cadsuane would help him no matter how he treats her because...well...how should I say this? Well - ONLY the whole of EXISTENCE is at stake!

[Bob T Dwarf]

Gotta agree.

 

Luckers, you're way off in left field on this one.

 

The only reason for Cadsuane to even be in Rand's orbit is her own overweening sense of self-importance. Nobody invited her. Nobody wanted her. Nobody needs her.

 

She has proven to be nothing but sand in the gears of everything that needs to get done. And, don't even try to point to her actions during the Cleansing. In point of fact, she really didn't do anything except stand around and be as insufferable as always.

 

The very best thing Rand could ever do for his own mental health and his development as a character is to haul-off and bust her square in the teeth. And, then make sure that she is left to heal on her own. If that's a little strong for you, then how about he puts her to work, Aiel fashion, digging holes and then filling them up again.

 

Until you, or I, or any of us is unfortunate enough to find ourselves in a situation as utterly hopeless as the one Rand faces, none of us is fit to judge his actions. He's the one staring down the barrel of the gun, not you. And, not Cadsuane either.

 

She simply has no place and no right to set herself up as the ultimate authority on what is expected of the Dragon Reborn on the eve of Tarmon Gaidon, and somebody very badly needs to acquaint her with that fact.

[Luckers]

Rand is the DR and deserves some slack, having accomplished a lot already despite being young and half-mad with saidin; and with having sacrificed everything to save reality for people who don't give a flying f*ck about him. (So that doesn't deserve respect?) That's why he's allowed to control most of the world, and having 3 women in his bed (well, maybe not in his bed, but...) - and doesn't need an "add-on" character that was created only to serve the purpose of saying "Hey folks, it's still the same ol' women-over-men-thing despite what you've read about Rand in past chapters!"

 

For one, no person in this world or any other, invented or not, deserves resoect by nature of their existence,

 

Secondly, his actions to save people despite their disreguard of him work in his favour.

 

Thirdly, his temper tantrums work to his detriment. He acts like a child, and that must not be allowed, no matter how you identify with him.

 

Cadsuanes behaviour is not a woman-over-man thing, it is someone who is in control of herself over someone who isn't. She treats his emotional displays with contempt because they deserve no better.

 

The only reason for Cadsuane to even be in Rand's orbit is her own overweening sense of self-importance. Nobody invited her. Nobody wanted her. Nobody needs her.

 

So what? You think popular opinion is needed for action? Cadsuane has acted as she has seen fit, and that this is the right action is more then verefied, if not by her own wisdom then by the prophecies about her.

 

It amuses me, your comment... it disaplys a need for recognition, 'nobody needs her, nobody wants her, nobody invited her'. What crap. A persons role is decided by their actions, not their need in the opinion of insecure fools.

[Bob T Dwarf]

What's with the personal attack? What warranted that?

 

Is somebody having a tantrum. Does Luckers need his nap?

 

For one, no person in this world or any other, invented or not, deserves resoect by nature of their existence,

 

Where is that one written in stone? In the real world, things are just the opposite. Every civilized society, and darn near all of the uncivilized ones, have had laws against things like robbery, rape, and murder for like forever. The reason for those laws is that all of those societies recognize that without respect for others by nature of their simple existence, there is no society. There is only anarchy. The cornerstone of civilization is the respect for others simply because they exist.

[racha_giurgiu]

Perhaps in place of saying "respect" the more appropriate word would be revered. I respect my mother for being my mother, but I do not revere her for anything just because of that fact.

 

I completely agree that Rand is a loose cannon that benefits from advisors with centuries of experience to aid him rather than simply drawing on his own incredibly limited expertise stemming from the few years he has been alive and the "mad man" in his head. Moiraine and Cadsuane have served purposes aiding Rand. Rand needs support. To gather support he needs the wisdom of those who have been there and done that. While Cadsuane is not the most likeable character, she is respected and revered by other Aes Sedai. She is a force to be reckoned with. She is not only helping the forces of the light, but also trying to keep Rand's head on the world in front of his eyes. Rand can not be effective without advisors. He is too inexperienced and volatile.

[Daruya]

If Cadsuane fawned over Rand or started "my Lord Dragon-ing" him he'd dismiss her as inconsequential. By being "strong" and not backing down she gains his grudging respect and he realizes he can trust her to tell it to him straight, whether he likes what she says or not. She's not dictating his actions or telling him what to say, after all. Granted, if he'd allowed her to be his puppeteer, she'd have taken the job but since he didn't they've worked out a "relationship" that seems to be working, for the most part.

 

So she slapped him after he balefired someone. Remember, balefire is forbidden and I have a feeling his balefire was a doozy and the stronger it is, the more the Pattern is affected. Was it right for her to slap him? Probably not, but it got his attention. He was getting a bit of a god complex. If Rand wins TG but ends up a tyrant, the world could be worse off than if he loses (or words to that effect).

 

Rand knows Cadsuane: 1) isn't afraid of him; 2) will tell it to him straight; 3) wants him to be ready for TG.

 

Also to the person who said all Cadsuane did at the cleansing was stand around, that's not quite true. She provided protection in more ways than one and, at one time, weakened that protection to give a bit of a "recharge" to Nynaeve.

 

I don't like Cadsuane all that much either but I do respect her.

[Draven]

"Luckers need his nap?" Don't you dare make fun of Luckers' age, Bob! Don't you know he's EXACTLY 18? Apparently, this Cadsuane-thing is a sensitive issue to him that he's starting to babble like an idiot. It's probably because he acts like her in these forums, everybody's self-appointed critic, always there to say people they're wrong, and that his opinion is all that matters. If you don't believe me, why don't you see his usually long-winded posts in almost every thread in these forums? There's always someone wrong. Now, he's losing an argument - which he started, by the way - and he couldn't handle it. :cry:

[RobertAlexWillis]

The only reason for Cadsuane to even be in Rand's orbit is her own overweening sense of self-importance. Nobody invited her. Nobody wanted her. Nobody needs her.

 

Of course. Like that time she kept him alive while he was cleansing the taint. Or that time she got him out of jail in Far Madding. Yeah, who wants someone who keeps you alive and gets you out of jail. Stupid wench.

 

What's with the personal attack? What warranted that?

 

Is somebody having a tantrum. Does Luckers need his nap?

 

I see ... so, rather than address what he said, you respond with the kind of personal attack you are pretending to deplore.

 

Rand's genuine good nature would 'repair' itself just as well if Cadsuane had been strait with him from the beginning and pledge openly to only aid him and not hinder his efforts.

 

I'm sorry, mental illness does not just "repair itself".

 

Rand is above her. He is just as good natured (actually more so), infinitely stronger in the power, and just as wise.

 

Rand is a very intelligent, sensitive young man, who has a great deal to learn still about the world, and people. Cadsuane is an intelligent, sensitive old woman, who knows precisely what she is doing, having dealt with numerous young men in the past. It is amazing to me how many people ignore the gentleness she displayed toward him while he was unconscious after being cut by Padan Fain. Thats what she really thinks of Rand. She acts the way she does because if she tried to "make open and friendly efforts to reason with him" he would demand an oath of fealty or push her aside. Rand is smart, and has made some excellent decisions, but he is not all-knowing and all-powerful, and he has made many mistakes as well. (Come against me if you dare! I am the storm! Come if you dare, Shai'tan! I am the Dragon Reborn!)

 

Rand is under terrible stress and weight of responsibility. He needs people who see him not as "the Dragon Reborn" but as a man. His harem does that admirably, but he also needs a few people like that who are not in love with him. Even he knows that. Its one reason he wanted to keep Lan around. Lan is his friend, but not a lap-dog.

 

Just because Cadsuane says some things that are uncomfortable to Rand, doesn't mean she's either wrong or a bad person. As for her manner ... personally, I don't even find it particularly rude. She's not coarse, she's blunt, with a purpose. There's something to be said for bluntness.

[Bob T Dwarf]

And, that is precisely my objection to Cadsuane.

 

The very few scraps of any repect she demonstrates are for the Dragon Reborn. ( and what he managed to accomplish before she ever appeared on the scene )

 

She has absolutely no repect ( and only a very little compassion ) for Rand al'Thor.

 

Certainly Rand needs experienced councillors. He also needs people who will forthrightly tell him that he's wrong when he's wrong.

 

What he does not need is somebody ridiculing him and leading him to feel foolish simply because he is young and has more on his plate than anybody can be expected to handle competently.

 

He needs good advice. He needs self-confidence even more. Cadsuane provides neither. She pokes. She prods. She makes a bad situation even worse. She's a disaster.

[mightisright]

Cadsuane’s introduction scene is one of my principal problems with her. As of late she isn’t bad and has saved Rand’s behind several times. It wouldn’t kill Rand to tell her thank you. Other then that I respect your opinion Robert, but let me go through several places we differ.

 

“She acts the way she does because if she tried to "make open and friendly efforts to reason with him" he would demand an oath of fealty or push her aside.â€

 

Rand’s pushing people away is a problem. I don’t think pushing your way in though, when you are a stranger Aes Sedia is a very helpful way to break him of that habit. If she truly wants to help an oath is not out of place. This seems to be our only significant point of contention.

 

“Just because Cadsuane says some things that are uncomfortable to Rand, doesn't mean she's either wrong or a bad person. As for her manner ... personally, I don't even find it particularly rude. She's not coarse, she's blunt, with a purpose. There's something to be said for bluntness.â€

 

The devils seem to be in the details for us. We have each taken her encounters with Rand a little differently. I don’t have a problem with bluntness as long as it is polite bluntness. You can be diplomatic and blunt, which takes us back to the main point we differ on. (I happen to agree that Cadsuane is sensitive and has good intentions - but she is also as stubborn and woolheaded about her methods as her pupil – kind of hypocritical isn’t it? Where is her teacher to loving prod her to better manners?) Rand deserves her respect and kind advice about his behavior. He isn’t just another young man and as you say he happens to be smart and sensitive, even if it’s buried deep now. Most importantly, Rand is Cadsuane’s superior. Criticism is welcome, rudeness and disrespect are not. It is a fine line to tread, but it is doable and I personally believe Cadsuane should try this method. I say personally, because I understand you don’t agree. That is fine.

 

For the record I said his good nature would repair itself just as well. Stubbornness and arrogance aren’t metal illnesses either. If you are referring to his hardness or Lews I believe there is another way to combat it that has nothing to do with pushing him or manners.

 

I personally think this line is cool even if its shows he is on the brink “(Come against me if you dare! I am the storm! Come if you dare, Shai'tan! I am the Dragon Reborn!)â€. I mean that’s a balls to the wall call out. The alpha maleness of it awes me. Rand as the buttkicking savior is what makes the series for me. Yes, its nerdy, starwars-ish, typical fantasy fodder, but it has never been as polished or as well written before. Mat and Perrin just seal the deal. However, I could do with less of the frustrating elements and more of the butt kicking. For some people the gender wars and political maneuvering are what make the series. For me they both build it up and detract from it. A little less of both would go a long way. One mans opinion.

[DragonSpawn]

Maj' date='

 

Not a fan of the Seanchan, hey? Why so much against the insect-helmet wearing drawlers?

 

[/quote']

 

If yiou have to ask, I suggest you reread the books and consider just what practice the Seanchan has that makes me view them as equal to shadowspawn in terms of evil...

 

And it's not that their accent is described as sounding like texan, though that doesn't exactly help

 

By enslaving all those who are deemed responsible for the breaking and those who oppressed the lands for years? At least they use the Damane for good instead of killing them outright, after all considerring the manueverring and chaos that ruled Seanchan before they were put down it is hardly surprising they view all channelers with a very low regard. One tried to destroy the world, the other one caused for hundreds of years oppression, death, tyranny, misery and disturbance through their greed, lust for power and desire to rule because they possessed the power. In my view I don't blame the Seanchan for not bending down to the channelers but overthrowing them and enslaving them.

We even see in Randland that the Aes Sedai interfere everywhere in matters that don't concern them, and think the world should run after their vision or how they see fit to some degree.

 

In my opinion Seanchan are considerably better then Shadowspawn, but I question if not some of the channelling parties in the WoT world are not on par with the inhumane and more troublesome then should be tolerated. I.e even the Tower causes in general more trouble for sovereign nations then a supposedly nationless order should. We saw with the Knights Templars how screwing around with nations and trying to manipulate is not a good thing and can lead to their own demise, as almost happened to the Aes Sedai with Artur Hawkwing. Ironically not even that close call could jolt the Aes Sedai to possibly rethink their ways.