The Dark Prophecy

[Luckers]

So, I've been looking at the Dark Prophecy, and wondering if it might not refer in large to events originally set out for aMoL (as in tGS/TofM/aMoL). Consider:

 

The Daughter of the Night, she walks again.

 

Always interpreted to just refer to her attaining her freedom, but consider that the Daughter of the Night could be said to walk 'again', now... as Cyndane.

 

The ancient war, she yet fights

 

Generic goading, or a warning that her 'please help me Rand' in the epilogue of TofM was false?

 

Her new lover she seeks, who shall serve her and die, yet serve still

.

 

So, the first two bits probably stand stronger as referring to Lanfear attaining her freedom, instead of Cyndane living again--until here. If this is foretelling, and its infered by Moridin that the Shadow's Prophecies are foretellings--then here is the problem. She never got Rand to die, last time round, or even serve really.

 

Yet, now, with her 'please help me Rand', that seems to be in the works--both the serving, the dying, and the serving still.

 

Who shall stand against her coming?

 

A good question--Moiraine maybe--she did last time.

 

The Shinning Walls shall kneel.

 

Interesting implication... also something that never happened last time. I've long thought that the 'Seanchan woman with a sword' dream spoke of Fortuona relieving a siege of Tar Valon. If you consider--Egwene is slipping, about to fall (the Shinning Walls fallen, Shadowspawn in the city, things looking dire). The Seanchan woman with the face that changes but a sword that is rock solid (an army--many people many faces, the sword rock solid, the femininity described by the one who leads it). Descends with no difficulty (she was not the one hard pressed by the situation, before she chose to join it) and they can make it together (together they destroy the Shadowspawn army.

 

Anyway, that's getting off topic. To continue.

 

The man who channels stands alone.

He gives his friends for sacrifice.

 

 

Tell me this doesn't sound like tGS. Rand stands alone, he willingly chooses to abandon Lan to whatever fate awaits him, and shows similar disreguard for all around him. He even states that sacrificing Lan might serve his purposes.

 

Two roads before him, one to death beyond dying, one to life eternal.

Which will he choose? Which will he choose?

 

Two roads before him (decided by the choice at VoG), one to death beyond dying (its made clear by the borderlanders that the fate had Rand chose wrong at VoG that it would have been bad--death beyond dying sounds like the destruction of his soul, which very likely is precisely what awaits in the Dark One wins. Life eternal, though always looked at as the 'he chooses the Dark One's immortality' could easily refer to the cycle of rebirth--which his realisations about were integral to his choice in VoG.

 

What hand shelters? What hand slays

 

If I'm right about this prophecy being about recent events, my guess is this may refer to Cadsuane. She desired at all times to help him, but he did not see it--hence the confusion--was her hand there to shelter or to slay? She drives him near to killing himself, after all, and yet ultimately that driving is what saves him.

 

Alternatively this could refer to Cyndane's deceptions--but given the rest of this paragraph (if im right) speaks of VoG and everything leading up to it...

 

Luc came to the Mountains of Dhoom.

Isam waited in the high passes.

The hunt is now begun. The Shadow's hounds now course, and kill.

One did live, and one did die, but both are.

The Time of Change has come.

 

The bits about Slayer are past tense, in either tGH or tGS/TofM. Of more interest is are the sequence of things in present tense 'The hunt is now begun. The Shadows hounds now course and kill. The Time of Change has come.' And the Time of Change comes in what was originally slated for aMoL--so too then do we judge that the other two are concurrent--perhaps not just darkhounds, which we've already seen, but the Wild Hunt?

 

The Watchers wait on Toman Head.

The seed of the Hammer burns the ancient tree.

Death shall sow, and summer burn, before the Great Lord comes.

Death shall reap, and bodies fail, before the Great Lord comes.

Again the seed slays ancient wrong, before the Great Lord comes.

Now the Great Lord comes.

 

 

So, the watchers and the Hammer's seed all refer to tGH, no doubt--except that what that paragraph is, is a list of things that will happen before the Great Lord comes... we've had death sown, summer has burned, bodies have failed (burst into beetles), the seed slays ancient wrong again--when they re-invade in tFoH through till now.

 

And that is my final point--the first four rows were a list of things that would happen before the Great Lord comes--but NOW the Great Lord comes. These things are past and that final line again sets us in aMoL, for it is now that the Great Lord comes.

 

 

Thoughts? Of it all, the part of the most interest is the bits referring to Lanfear...

[Jimvzyl]

Just regarding, 'What hand shelters, what hand slays' - isn't that precisely what Rand asks himself at the end of TGS regarding his stump? Which hand had he lost? Turns out it was the hand that saves which remains.

 

Seems too vague a reference for Cadsuance and still relates to the final few books rather than TGH.

 

I really like the way this wraps things up though.

[FarShainMael]

Very neat.

 

So, we're waiting for 'Her new lover she seeks, who shall serve her and die, yet serve still'.

 

Does make the situation in ToM Epilogue sound like a trap, doesn't it?

 

A side note - I proposed elsewhere that Rand is the 'Seed of the Hammer', he and Asmo 'burned the ancient tree' during their fight in Rhuidean. Can't find the thread I started, it seems to have disappeared when the forums changed over, but nvm. It occurs to me that RJ's original intention (back when it was going to be just the three books) might have had that phrase refer to the Seanchan; but he may have changed his mind to open the story out a bit. In which case, 'slaying the ancient wrong' could refer to the cleansing of Saidin; Moiraine said something about Rand having put right something he did wrong (as LTT).

[Luckers]

Does make the situation in ToM Epilogue sound like a trap, doesn't it?

 

Well, the ancient war she yet fights.

[Leyrann]

I wonder if she falls in love with Moridin, some way. Maybe he served her plans in the early books, and died with it. And if they both turn back to the Light (one of my (maybe crazy) theories), then I think that she will decide what he does.

[Cybertrolloc]

The Watchers wait on Toman Head.

The seed of the Hammer burns the ancient tree.

Death shall sow, and summer burn, before the Great Lord comes.

Death shall reap, and bodies fail, before the Great Lord comes.

Again the seed slays ancient wrong, before the Great Lord comes.

Now the Great Lord comes.

First seed = Seanchan.

 

I've always wanted to tie the second to Rand (cleansing Saidin), but oy that's a stretch. So possibly some redemption coming for Tuon--she's due anyway?

 

In the I told you so dept, I posted something along these lines last time the prophesy came up :)

[dwn]

Luc came to the Mountains of Dhoom.

Isam waited in the high passes.

The hunt is now begun. The Shadow's hounds now course, and kill.

One did live, and one did die, but both are.

The Time of Change has come.

 

The bits about Slayer are past tense, in either tGH or tGS/TofM. Of more interest is are the sequence of things in present tense 'The hunt is now begun. The Shadows hounds now course and kill. The Time of Change has come.' And the Time of Change comes in what was originally slated for aMoL--so too then do we judge that the other two are concurrent--perhaps not just darkhounds, which we've already seen, but the Wild Hunt?

 

From Perrin's POV in ToM, the Light side of the Wild Hunt certainly started in Veins of Gold.

 

-- dwn

[Charlz Guybon]

I think you're on the right track Luckers, a very plausible interpretation in my opinion.

[Leyrann]

The Watchers wait on Toman Head.

The seed of the Hammer burns the ancient tree.

Death shall sow, and summer burn, before the Great Lord comes.

Death shall reap, and bodies fail, before the Great Lord comes.

Again the seed slays ancient wrong, before the Great Lord comes.

Now the Great Lord comes.

 

 

A great idea just occurred me. There seems to be a consensus that Demandred is impersonating King Roedran. What if the second seed is also about the Seanchan, this time killing Demandred? It would be again, because the Seanchan also slayed the Shadowspawn in their blight, and because Artur Hawkwing crushed the Shadow's invasion in something like 976 FY.

[Southpaw89]

Maybe the, "Which hand shelters, which hand slays" refers to Rand and Moridin. Both connected yet Rand is trying to shelter his people while Moridin just wants death

[Leyrann]

Maybe the, "Which hand shelters, which hand slays" refers to Rand and Moridin. Both connected yet Rand is trying to shelter his people while Moridin just wants death

 

Could be...

 

I must admit that I myself thought it was maybe about if Rand would lose the right or the wrong hand in KoD. But mine is not a plausible one.

[Luckers]

The Watchers wait on Toman Head.

The seed of the Hammer burns the ancient tree.

Death shall sow, and summer burn, before the Great Lord comes.

Death shall reap, and bodies fail, before the Great Lord comes.

Again the seed slays ancient wrong, before the Great Lord comes.

Now the Great Lord comes.

 

 

A great idea just occurred me. There seems to be a consensus that Demandred is impersonating King Roedran. What if the second seed is also about the Seanchan, this time killing Demandred? It would be again, because the Seanchan also slayed the Shadowspawn in their blight, and because Artur Hawkwing crushed the Shadow's invasion in something like 976 FY.

 

I have this weird thought in my head, that it will be Selucia who kills Demandred. I don't why I have this thought, but it is there. And it's more complex than that... something along the lines of this.

 

"I am Demandred," he said quietly, as he approached.

 

The tiny Empress gave no reaction, not even a flicker of fear touched her face. The woman at her side, though, moaned. "Please..." she whispered, stepping forward, one hand stretched in supplication. "Please...."

 

Demandred drew upon the Source--and grunted, staring down at the knife embedded in his chest, and the hand that held it. Fear was gone from the woman's face, now she stared at him with no expression whatsoever.

 

He stepped back, mouth filling with the taste of blood. He hadn't even seen her move! He hadn't seen her....

 

So much has been made of Selucia's secret fighting ability, that I just see it--I don't know why I think it will be Demandred in particular though--maybe because Selucia almost did this to Mat, and Demandred and Mat are both generals. *shrug*

[Leyrann]

I have this weird thought in my head, that it will be Selucia who kills Demandred. I don't why I have this thought, but it is there. And it's more complex than that... something along the lines of this.

 

"I am Demandred," he said quietly, as he approached.

 

The tiny Empress gave no reaction, not even a flicker of fear touched her face. The woman at her side, though, moaned. "Please..." she whispered, stepping forward, one hand stretched in supplication. "Please...."

 

Demandred drew upon the Source--and grunted, staring down at the knife embedded in his chest, and the hand that held it. Fear was gone from the woman's face, now she stared at him with no expression whatsoever.

 

He stepped back, mouth filling with the taste of blood. He hadn't even seen her move! He hadn't seen her....

 

So much has been made of Selucia's secret fighting ability, that I just see it--I don't know why I think it will be Demandred in particular though--maybe because Selucia almost did this to Mat, and Demandred and Mat are both generals. *shrug*

 

At first you laugh, but then, it seems possible. I think this would be one of those special moments, that would be funny, but also plausible.

[ironisles]

I have this weird thought in my head, that it will be Selucia who kills Demandred. I don't why I have this thought, but it is there. And it's more complex than that... something along the lines of this.

 

"I am Demandred," he said quietly, as he approached.

 

The tiny Empress gave no reaction, not even a flicker of fear touched her face. The woman at her side, though, moaned. "Please..." she whispered, stepping forward, one hand stretched in supplication. "Please...."

 

Demandred drew upon the Source--and grunted, staring down at the knife embedded in his chest, and the hand that held it. Fear was gone from the woman's face, now she stared at him with no expression whatsoever.

 

He stepped back, mouth filling with the taste of blood. He hadn't even seen her move! He hadn't seen her....

 

So much has been made of Selucia's secret fighting ability, that I just see it--I don't know why I think it will be Demandred in particular though--maybe because Selucia almost did this to Mat, and Demandred and Mat are both generals. *shrug*

 

At first you laugh, but then, it seems possible. I think this would be one of those special moments, that would be funny, but also plausible.

 

 

It would fit right in the fail-boat that is the Forsaken too.

[Terez]

Just regarding, 'What hand shelters, what hand slays' - isn't that precisely what Rand asks himself at the end of TGS regarding his stump? Which hand had he lost? Turns out it was the hand that saves which remains.

Yes. Brandon commented on this, which I included in my own discussion of this prophecy (the Dark Prophecy page in the FAQ linked in my sig). I've also discussed the Lan connection here before, and more at Theoryland.

[Entreri]

Lanfear is clearly setting a trap for the DR, TAR based. It is highly doubtful that LTT or any male channeler for that matter, has the skill of Mohgidien or Cyndane in TAR. Thus, it is a perfect trap for Rand, otherwise he would swat even a fully powered Lanfear around like an insect after tGS. They need to get the DR where he is vulnerable.

 

To save the world, Mat had to give up half the light of the world. Moraine has a part to play in it. So does Perrin (Mins visions), and Perrin is #2 in TAR.

 

However, the DR has only so many lives...doubtful is in 9.

 

We know he dies at least once, Min's vision in ToM: "New viewings spun around him...An open cavern, gaping like a mouth. Bloodstained rocks. TWO DEAD MEN on the ground, surronded by ranks and ranks of Trollocs, A PIPE WITH SMOKE CURLING FROM IT."

 

I think the other likely candidate for the dead man is either Moridin or Fain (his army of zombie Trollocs).

 

With such godly enemies to fight in AMOL (SH, Fain, Moridin), even the new godly DR is going to have great difficulty. Certainly it is stated in the books that both Moridin and Fain want a final crack at the DR. And SH is probably getting a little tired of raping female Forsaken and want to get a different type of action.

[Leyrann]

I don't know if Lanfear is setting a trap. Maybe she really wants to turn back to the Light, but can't, because of her cour'souvra. That problem would be solved if Moridin turns back to the Light, like he does in my theory... But I must say I like your "SH is probably getting tired of raping female Forsaken".

[Terez]

I have been begging Brandon for months to have Demandred buttraped by Shaidar Haran in AMOL. But I fear his death is probably in the notes.

[Entreri]

I don't know if Lanfear is setting a trap. Maybe she really wants to turn back to the Light, but can't, because of her cour'souvra. That problem would be solved if Moridin turns back to the Light, like he does in my theory... But I must say I like your "SH is probably getting tired of raping female Forsaken".

 

:)

 

I do not think any of the Forsaken would turn to the Light, if any will, I also think Ishamael. First the irony, second of all his reason to turn to the Dark...Rand may enlighten him sufficiently. Ishamael's knowledge of the DO is much greater than any other human and thus he may well know how to permanently seal away the DO.

 

Lanfear has been spurned by LTT too many times, she is looking for revenge now.

 

Book 11, KoD:

 

Cyndane: "The easiest way is to kidnap Lews Therin. I can make him tell where the seals are". Moridin: "No. You would accidently kill him".

 

Grandael or Moghdien would be too terrified of the DR (plus Grandael is now SH's plaything and SH said the task felled to another)...thus it falls to Cyndane, the ideal candidate.

[Leyrann]

But if Moridin turns back to the Light, he can force Cyndane and Moghedien (and maybe even Graendal, if she also gets a cour'souvra) to turn back to the Light. Then we have only Roedran Demandred left...

[Rand alSaurus]

(I must say that of all the prophecies, this little bit here is one of my favorites. The Dark actually has some of the more interesting (to dissect) prophecies. IMO.)

 

The Watchers wait on Toman Head.

The seed of the Hammer burns the ancient tree.

Death shall sow, and summer burn, before the Great Lord comes.

Death shall reap, and bodies fail, before the Great Lord comes.

Again the seed slays ancient wrong, before the Great Lord comes.

Now the Great Lord comes.

 

So, the watchers and the Hammer's seed all refer to tGH, no doubt--except that what that paragraph is, is a list of things that will happen before the Great Lord comes... we've had death sown, summer has burned, bodies have failed (burst into beetles), the seed slays ancient wrong again--when they re-invade in tFoH through till now.

 

I was reading the ToM glossary (for some reason..) and I stumbled upon a nugget. Maybe this is a hint?

 

Towers of Midnight, the: Thirteen fortresses of unpolished black marble located in Imfaral, Seanchan. At the time of the Consolidation of Seanchan, it was the center of military might. The final battle of the Consolidation took place there, leaving Hawkwing's descendants in power. Since that time, it has been unoccupied. Legend has it that in time of dire need, the Imperial family will return to the Towers of Midnight and "right that which is wrong."

(Italics on the interesting bit are mine)

 

"The seed" is definitely the Seanchan. So maybe, this "ancient wrong" they are slaying isn't the exact same ancient wrong that they have slain in previous ages, rather, the Imperial family comes around once again to fix something that has gone horribly wrong. Like they do every so often, explaining "legend has it..."

 

So.. what's this ancient wrong?

 

Another question to consider is.. who exactly is the "Imperial family" mentioned in the Glossary?

 

Just my thoughts.

[2RiversFan]

First time posting. I started reading the books (first time) this summer; so I'm not familiar with everyone's theories...

 

However, from the point I first read the prophecy regarding the Towers of Midnight, since there are/were 13, I thought the phrase to be symbolism for the 13 Forsaken. It at least can partially fit when you consider that some crumble (die) and one becomes larger and stronger (Naeblis). Unfortunately, I don't have the books now (used the public library to read the series).

 

I think the fact that there are actual towers in Imfraral is merely a clever device by RJ to throw off the scent of theorists...but again, I can't back up my thoughts with quotes or anything since I can't research it directly.

 

It's quite possible that someone more thoroughly versed in the books can easily disspell this notion, since I've only read this series through the one time.

 

Cheers

[Terez]

I just talked about this on the other thread. Ishamael was kicking around up until several years after Hawkwing's death, so it's probably safe to say he was influential in early Seanchan as well, including the corrupted prophecies and the construction of the Towers of Midnight. Since Graendal interpreted 'midnight towers' in the dark prophecy to mean that Perrin would be killed by one of the Forsaken, the symbolism is obvious. But Brandon also confirmed it.

[newcastlemal]

(I must say that of all the prophecies, this little bit here is one of my favorites. The Dark actually has some of the more interesting (to dissect) prophecies. IMO.)

 

The Watchers wait on Toman Head.

The seed of the Hammer burns the ancient tree.

Death shall sow, and summer burn, before the Great Lord comes.

Death shall reap, and bodies fail, before the Great Lord comes.

Again the seed slays ancient wrong, before the Great Lord comes.

Now the Great Lord comes.

 

So, the watchers and the Hammer's seed all refer to tGH, no doubt--except that what that paragraph is, is a list of things that will happen before the Great Lord comes... we've had death sown, summer has burned, bodies have failed (burst into beetles), the seed slays ancient wrong again--when they re-invade in tFoH through till now.

 

I was reading the ToM glossary (for some reason..) and I stumbled upon a nugget. Maybe this is a hint?

 

Towers of Midnight, the: Thirteen fortresses of unpolished black marble located in Imfaral, Seanchan. At the time of the Consolidation of Seanchan, it was the center of military might. The final battle of the Consolidation took place there, leaving Hawkwing's descendants in power. Since that time, it has been unoccupied. Legend has it that in time of dire need, the Imperial family will return to the Towers of Midnight and "right that which is wrong."

(Italics on the interesting bit are mine)

 

"The seed" is definitely the Seanchan. So maybe, this "ancient wrong" they are slaying isn't the exact same ancient wrong that they have slain in previous ages, rather, the Imperial family comes around once again to fix something that has gone horribly wrong. Like they do every so often, explaining "legend has it..."

 

So.. what's this ancient wrong?

 

Another question to consider is.. who exactly is the "Imperial family" mentioned in the Glossary?

 

Just my thoughts.

 

 

Yeh, this is definitely interesting... I think the "seed slays ancient wrong" refers to either rand cleansing the male half of the True Source or - and I think this much cooler - "the seed" is Tuon, Empress and descendant of Artur Hawkwing. She will put right an ancient wrong of his... making Aes Sedai marath'damane. Will she make peace with Rand, and stop making all channellers marath'damane? That would be a great scene in the last book. And then THE DARK LORD COMES... :-)

[damandred]

Just a thought. Would DF's regard leashing AS as a wrong? It is a dark prophecy after all.