Bonding and the merits of Compulstion

[EvilSocrates]

The Asha'man shouldn't have used Compulsion on the Aes Sedai who invaded their homes seeking to gentle and kill them. They should have killed them all. And no, I'm not joking, not even a little bit.

 

Wasn't the WT operating under the belief that the male half of the true source was tainted at that point? I think they were justified in trying to take out the BT. That still means they did it in a stupid way, mind. The obvious thing would be to send spies and warders to infiltrate the BT and see if they had systems in place to kill those who were going mad and to see how hard it would be to take down. But then, most people in the series act like morons.

[anotherfingolfin]

The Asha'man shouldn't have used Compulsion on the Aes Sedai who invaded their homes seeking to gentle and kill them. They should have killed them all. And no, I'm not joking, not even a little bit.

 

They did this basically because of Rand handicapping them by insisting on not harming the AS, yes? My memory ís a little sketchy, but did they out and out Compel them, or was it an add-on through the Bonding? If the second, then i'm ambivalent on the ethics of it, since AS can and do on occassion sort of Compel their warders, if they show too much free will, yes? If so, then that line has already been crossed.

Yes, much rather have killed them. Deserved as much. Stupid Rand.

[MasterAblar]

The Asha'man shouldn't have used Compulsion on the Aes Sedai who invaded their homes seeking to gentle and kill them. They should have killed them all. And no, I'm not joking, not even a little bit.

 

Well I'm happy they didn't but I have to agree that considering that the aes sedai went there to kill all of them they would have been completely justified in killing the aes sedai. Not that Egwene or the WT would have seen it that way of course.

[MasterAblar]

The Asha'man shouldn't have used Compulsion on the Aes Sedai who invaded their homes seeking to gentle and kill them. They should have killed them all. And no, I'm not joking, not even a little bit.

 

They did this basically because of Rand handicapping them by insisting on not harming the AS, yes? My memory ís a little sketchy, but did they out and out Compel them, or was it an add-on through the Bonding? If the second, then i'm ambivalent on the ethics of it, since AS can and do on occassion sort of Compel their warders, if they show too much free will, yes? If so, then that line has already been crossed.

Yes, much rather have killed them. Deserved as much. Stupid Rand.

 

It was an add-on through the bonding.

[Zentari]

The Asha'man shouldn't have used Compulsion on the Aes Sedai who invaded their homes seeking to gentle and kill them. They should have killed them all. And no, I'm not joking, not even a little bit.

 

Wasn't the WT operating under the belief that the male half of the true source was tainted at that point? I think they were justified in trying to take out the BT. That still means they did it in a stupid way, mind. The obvious thing would be to send spies and warders to infiltrate the BT and see if they had systems in place to kill those who were going mad and to see how hard it would be to take down. But then, most people in the series act like morons.

Justified in sending sister to mass murder people on the spot ? Don't you dare tell me that they would provide relief to the severed ones afterwards...

 

Actually, the first point would be to contact Rand and the BT and see what their actions are considering tainted Asha'man.I think besides the whole "in control" issue ("WE should decide who is crazy or not and naturally be in charge") they would be very impressed with the ruthlessness of it.

[capuga]

The Asha'man shouldn't have used Compulsion on the Aes Sedai who invaded their homes seeking to gentle and kill them. They should have killed them all. And no, I'm not joking, not even a little bit.

 

It certainly would have been within their rights. The sheer gall of the Aes Sedai to be upset by this absolutely astounds me. You sent a war party to murder every man in the Black Tower and then you are upset that they dare bond those women and make them obey? You should have got on your knees and thanked the Asha'man for having the mercy not to slaughter every Aes Sedai on the spot. Not only did they not kill them, but as far as we've seen the prisoners have been fairly treated. And despite those that grumble that every thread is an Egwene bashing thread, it's a little hard to discuss this without mentioning that it is through Egwene's incredibly moronic thoughts on the subject that we are privy to the White Tower reaction. I don't think it's bashing to point out that she is being quite stupid and unfair about the situation. Then, later, Rand offers to allow Aes Sedai to bond an equal number of Asha'man (despite the fact that it was the Aes Sedai and not his men that were in the wrong to start with) and the Aes Sedai actually have the gall to believe that being on equal footing with the Asha'man isn't enough compensation for their terrible deed of sparing Aes Sedai lives. How can you do anything but shake your head at this undeserved ego-tism and idiocy?

[MasterAblar]

The Asha'man shouldn't have used Compulsion on the Aes Sedai who invaded their homes seeking to gentle and kill them. They should have killed them all. And no, I'm not joking, not even a little bit.

 

Wasn't the WT operating under the belief that the male half of the true source was tainted at that point? I think they were justified in trying to take out the BT. That still means they did it in a stupid way, mind. The obvious thing would be to send spies and warders to infiltrate the BT and see if they had systems in place to kill those who were going mad and to see how hard it would be to take down. But then, most people in the series act like morons.

 

Considering that attacking the BT was pretty much a declaration of war on Rand it was extremely stupid of them. Not to mention they were ordered to gentle and hang all men, since they couldn't make the difference between channelers and regular men, that were found at the BT in complete violation of WT laws.

 

They were lucky that Rand didn't do what Alviarin feared and send the ashaman to wreck the WT. Lucky for them that Rand isn't nearly as bad as they all expected and believed him to be.

[MasterAblar]

The Asha'man shouldn't have used Compulsion on the Aes Sedai who invaded their homes seeking to gentle and kill them. They should have killed them all. And no, I'm not joking, not even a little bit.

 

It certainly would have been within their rights. The sheer gall of the Aes Sedai to be upset by this absolutely astounds me. You sent a war party to murder every man in the Black Tower and then you are upset that they dare bond those women and make them obey? You should have got on your knees and thanked the Asha'man for having the mercy not to slaughter every Aes Sedai on the spot. Not only did they not kill them, but as far as we've seen the prisoners have been fairly treated. And despite those that grumble that every thread is an Egwene bashing thread, it's a little hard to discuss this without mentioning that it is through Egwene's incredibly moronic thoughts on the subject that we are privy to the White Tower reaction. I don't think it's bashing to point out that she is being quite stupid and unfair about the situation. Then, later, Rand offers to allow Aes Sedai to bond an equal number of Asha'man (despite the fact that it was the Aes Sedai and not his men that were in the wrong to start with) and the Aes Sedai actually have the gall to believe that being on equal footing with the Asha'man isn't enough compensation for their terrible deed of sparing Aes Sedai lives. How can you do anything but shake your head at this undeserved ego-tism and idiocy?

 

Arrogance and sexism are a terrible mix. Not that those are their only shortcomings.

[Suttree]

Love how everyone keeps lumping the attack on the BT to reflect all Aes Sedai. It was an initiative put forth by Elaida who was under the influence of Fain in addition to her usual craziness. It didn't have the backing of the tower and was done in secret.

 

Edit: Also I don't recall the order to hang all men found regardless of channeling ability. Would love to see a quote on that as it seems extreme even for Elaida and her usual miscarriage of justice MO.

[Puny]

*Stirs the pot* What are you cooking? oO

 

The only thing that's weird about Egwene is that she has every reason to resent the White Tower and no reason to be so loyal to it and think it is such a great institution. Once you swallow the "Egwene thinks the WT is a great force for good that has just been led astray but is very deserving of respect and loyalty" pill, most of her actions are very understandable. Many Egwene haters simply can't quite swallow that pill because they, personally, hate Aes Sedai so much. If Egwene were acting in the Aiel's best interest (a culture that everyone loves and that Egwene has reason to), she would get a ton more slack.

I dislike the Aes Sedai mindset and their institution but I love singular Aes Sedai. I agree about the pill though, I can´t swallow that pill, not because I hate Aes Sedai but because in the context of the story it doesn´t make sense, or RJ hasn´t shown, written it to make sense. It would make more sense if it WAS the Aiel. We have actually been shown how she was trained under the WO. Sitting and sipping tea while Moiraine tells you stories is not quit enough I think.

 

Imagine if her response had been "He cannot break the seals, that would mean the death of the Aiel!" or "He has made the Wise Ones kneel and swear to him, he must be abusing his power and they should be free." I doubt she would get so much flack.

I dk about that, I don´t think that´s the actual issue

 

I mean, I hate Aes Sedai as much as anybody (well, a bunch anyhow). I think they are miserable arrogant failures. The only Ajahs that actually do anything are the Red (who make up for it by being straw man villain man hating jerks) and the Brown (WHAT DOES MAGIC HAVE TO DO WITH BEING A SCHOLAR, IT DOES NOT MAKE YOU SMARTER YOU DORKS, FOUND A REAL COLLEGE.

.. lol).

 

But EGWENE doesn't think that, probably because Robert Jordan didn't either.

I think they are supposed to be viewed as arrogant and misguided, but ultimately deserving of respect and a great force for good. They just were not handled well by the author. I actually think that the Aes Sedai as a whole was intended to be arrogant, missguided fools. I just don´t think that the Egwene arc is written as well as it should have been given how/what Egwene does, thinks about WT, AS and Rand

 

The Asha'man shouldn't have used Compulsion on the Aes Sedai who invaded their homes seeking to gentle and kill them. They should have killed them all. And no, I'm not joking, not even a little bit.

 

Wasn't the WT operating under the belief that the male half of the true source was tainted at that point? I think they were justified in trying to take out the BT. That still means they did it in a stupid way, mind. The obvious thing would be to send spies and warders to infiltrate the BT and see if they had systems in place to kill those who were going mad and to see how hard it would be to take down. But then, most people in the series act like morons.

They are meant to act like morons... lol. And to randsc: Killing is way too easy. I think it was way nicer when they used Compulsion on them instead, forcing them to obey. That´s what I would have done was I Asha´man.

 

Suttree: It was indeed a secret mission instigated by Elaida. Nontheless it was an arrogant assumption, a mission were they intended to kill the Asha´man based on assumption that they were crazy certainly starting a war in the process. But to be fair.. not all Aes Sedai are arrogant blind fools... just the majority

[David Selig]

Saidin still was tainted when the Aes Sedai attacked the BT. Rand's Asha'man gamble could've easily gone terribly wrong - in fact it should've caused much more problems, it's only extreme luck that a whole bunch of them didn't go insane, Gateway to a random location and destroy a few towns or a quarter of Arafel for example. So the Aes Sedai taking drastic measures to try to get rid of them is something I really don't have a problem with.

[anotherfingolfin]

Ugh and later letting AS take away pins and thereby basically degrading their and all Asha'man's status and what not. Ugh, Rand really should have grown a pair then and stood up for them. This is why it will bite him in the ass- not only does he ignore the BT problem, he seems to completely devalue the Asha'man as a whole, even the apparently loyal ones. It was stuff like this that made Dark Rand a refreshing change to read. :/

[capuga]

Love how everyone keeps lumping the attack on the BT to reflect all Aes Sedai. It was an initiative put forth by Elaida who was under the influence of Fain in addition to her usual craziness. It didn't have the backing of the tower and was done in secret.

 

True, but the Aes Sedai's unwarranted outrage at the Asha'man was fairly universal. And to be frank, with the exception of a handful or two of specific Aes Sedai, I think it's pretty fair to issue a blanket statement regarding Aes Sedai undeserved ego-tism, uselessness, and stupidity. And the reason I lumped them all in rather then just to harp on Egwene was to point out that it wasn't just Egwene by herself that was being unfair in their thoughts regarding Rand and the Asha'man in regards to this situation.

[capuga]

Saidin still was tainted when the Aes Sedai attacked the BT. Rand's Asha'man gamble could've easily gone terribly wrong - in fact it should've caused much more problems, it's only extreme luck that a whole bunch of them didn't go insane, Gateway to a random location and destroy a few towns or a quarter of Arafel for example. So the Aes Sedai taking drastic measures to try to get rid of them is something I really don't have a problem with.

 

Although I don't agree with this, I can see the argument. But, right or wrong, when you basically declare war and attack a group of people it is a little ridiculous to be upset when they defend themselves and fight back. And the fact remains that they could have easily killed the Aes Sedai that were trying to kill them (which was not in accordance with Tower law I might add) but instead they choose to show them mercy. You would think there would be at least a little thankfulness and appreciation mixed in with the anger.

[EvilSocrates]

Saidin still was tainted when the Aes Sedai attacked the BT. Rand's Asha'man gamble could've easily gone terribly wrong - in fact it should've caused much more problems, it's only extreme luck that a whole bunch of them didn't go insane, Gateway to a random location and destroy a few towns or a quarter of Arafel for example. So the Aes Sedai taking drastic measures to try to get rid of them is something I really don't have a problem with.

 

Although I don't agree with this, I can see the argument. But, right or wrong, when you basically declare war and attack a group of people it is a little ridiculous to be upset when they defend themselves and fight back. And the fact remains that they could have easily killed the Aes Sedai that were trying to kill them (which was not in accordance with Tower law I might add) but instead they choose to show them mercy. You would think there would be at least a little thankfulness and appreciation mixed in with the anger.

 

This is related to what I was trying to point out. I'm puzzled why everyone thinks that it was so horrible to try to destroy the black tower. I think it was morally obligatory to have that goal. Training a bunch of men to channel? Helloooooooo second breaking. That was a truly nutso move by Rand, although it ended up paying off. (I guess he did have some clue that it was possible to cleanse the taint by then though).

 

The only problem with the BT attack was (1) It was executed in an alarmingly stupid way (but then, it was Eladia's plan so that shouldn't surprise us) and (2) Everyone was really surprised that the men defended themselves.

 

In fairness to the AS (I can't believe how much I'm defending them in this thread) there is a non-trivial argument that men who can channel SHOULD submit for gentling. I like to think that I would. It's a death sentence, but that's the DO's fault for making all channeling men into time-bombs, not the AS for trying to defuse the bombs. Also, letting a bunch of crazy and dangerous people who really should be gentled have total dominion over a group of AS who were doing the right thing could reasonably be viewed as both unwise and immoral. So it should not SURPRISE the AS, but it should OFFEND the AS that it happened. Rand trying to apologize for it makes sense to me. Also, works out well in the long run for the acceptance of men who can channel. The more inter-bonding between those groups the better as far as I'm concerned.

 

Then again, I'm the guy who can see the logic behind the a'dam (even though I think it was implemented in a strangely cruel way and is an over-reaction), so perhaps I'm all alone out here on "extreme measures to control dangerous magic people" raft. I also sided with the registration side of the Marvel Civil war. Maybe I'm just weird?

[randsc]

Not weird, exactly. Just a fascist

[David Selig]

51 Aes Sedai were turned into slaves by the Asha'man and in fact their slavery potentially is much worse than the normal non-magical kind, since they are Compelled to obey at all times through the bond and are absolutely helpless. Yes, they attacked, but it's completely natural that the Aes Sedai are not exactly happy that 51 of their own ended up enslaved by the kind of people who have been the biggest horror in Randland for 3500 years - male channellers.

 

Rand should've ordered the release of the bonded Aes Sedai when he learned about them in CoT. It's not like they were likely to try to attack again after having seen the numbers of asha'man. Plus Rand could've had Cadsuane and Merise tell the captive Aes Sedai that Saidin is cleansed or made the Asha'man show it by mixed linking. Then the Aes Sedai wouldn't have a reason to try to attack the Asha'man anymore. His decision for reciprocal bonding instead was really stupid IMO.

[DemandredFO]

The ones that got released I'm pretty sure would try to attack the black tower again. Taim wouldn't have released the AS and I doubt logain would either.

[randsc]

Absolutely, Compulsion is evil. Including "lesser" forms like the Three Oaths and the Warder Bond.

 

Kill them.

[EvilSocrates]

Absolutely, Compulsion is evil. Including "lesser" forms like the Three Oaths and the Warder Bond.

 

Kill them.

 

Hahaha. That was pithy, but you don't actually think that Compulsions is an unadulterated evil do you? Including Warder style or thee Oaths (which is typically chosen, btw). It is a tool like any other, and can be used for good or ill. Means are never evil, only ends.

[randsc]

I don't suppose there is really any such thing as "unadultrated" evil, but Compulsion is pretty close.

 

And Gods save us from your ethical system, if you really believe that means are never evil. Unadultrated utilitarianism is also pretty close to unadultrated evil.

[capuga]

51 Aes Sedai were turned into slaves by the Asha'man and in fact their slavery potentially is much worse than the normal non-magical kind, since they are Compelled to obey at all times through the bond and are absolutely helpless. Yes, they attacked, but it's completely natural that the Aes Sedai are not exactly happy that 51 of their own ended up enslaved by the kind of people who have been the biggest horror in Randland for 3500 years - male channellers.

 

Rand should've ordered the release of the bonded Aes Sedai when he learned about them in CoT. It's not like they were likely to try to attack again after having seen the numbers of asha'man. Plus Rand could've had Cadsuane and Merise tell the captive Aes Sedai that Saidin is cleansed or made the Asha'man show it by mixed linking. Then the Aes Sedai wouldn't have a reason to try to attack the Asha'man anymore. His decision for reciprocal bonding instead was really stupid IMO.

 

What's the alternative? You think the Aes Sedai would prefer that the sisters were killed? The Aes Sedai instigated an act of aggression and they lost. Now they pay the price. That's their fault, not Rand's. And why should he release them? An aggressive force whose actions how declared them his enemies. They are POWs and they deserve to be. Where's his recompense for the benevolent act of releasing them? They got what they deserved (as long as they are treated humanely as prisoners which it appears that they have been).

[randsc]

If justice short of execution is what is desired, they should have been stilled. Even that is more humane and ethical than what the Aes Sedai had planned.

[Muad Cheade]

Absolutely, Compulsion is evil. Including "lesser" forms like the Three Oaths and the Warder Bond.

 

Kill them.

Kill who? Either way I disagree. Secondly, the Three Oaths and the Warder bond are not Compulsion. The primarily because both are initiated willingly.

[randsc]

And some people sold themselves into slavery. So what?

 

The Warder bond can be used to magically compell someone to act against their own will. That is compulsion, even if not technically Compulsion.

 

The Three Oaths would be unobjectionable and even laudatory if not magically enforced. Since they are magically enforced, they are at worst complusive, and at best free of moral content, positive or negative.

 

I don't get brownie points for honesty and fidelity to my oath of I promise not to flap my wings and fly. Fidelity without agency is meaningless.

 

Kill the Aes Sedai, who came to the Black Tower with the declared purpose not of gentling the Asha'man (arguably allowed by law and custom) but of killing them. Come to my house to attempt to kill me, and you'll rot in a hole under my lawn.