Elayne's Arc

[Arani Lepenque Aes Sedai]

To the people who think Elayne wouldn't think that an attack could come from within Caemlyn...

 

Did she not think the nobles would attack her from one particular outside area during the sucession? and yet the Hire-swords rebelled WITHIN the gates against her. would this not constitute an attack within the city?

 

The only possible way this could happen was if a bunch of darkfriends banded together. And according to RJ, Darkfriends are outnumbered 10to 1, if not 100 to 1.

 

The BA said an attack against Andor right?

 

Surely inside her own city constitutes part of andor? what if BT attacked? thats what easily covered distance to Caemlyn right?

 

The BT wouldn't attack YET. Taim is too busy turning the rest of his non-supporters to worry about such stuff yet. Shadowspawn cannot pass through gateways. Attacks of the magnitude the BA described are thus not possible via that method.

[f3llyn]

That's why all the mercenaries are outside the walls of Caemlyn?

 

And no amount of preparation would have helped if the Black Tower decided to attack the city itself. Besides that, why would Elayne think they would attack the city? For all that she knows the Black Tower is an ally of Rand, she couldn't possibly know about the corruption going on there.

 

You're basically saying she should be all knowing and prepare for scenarios that would be impossible to predict.

 

And another thing, we don't know what she took with her to the Field of Merrilor and what she left behind in Caemlyn. All we know is that she took the Band with her to Cairhien, iirc.

[blazetheearth]

That's why all the mercenaries are outside the walls of Caemlyn?

 

And no amount of preparation would have helped if the Black Tower decided to attack the city itself. Besides that, why would Elayne think they would attack the city? For all that she knows the Black Tower is an ally of Rand, she couldn't possibly know about the corruption going on there.

 

You're basically saying she should be all knowing and prepare for scenarios that would be impossible to predict.

 

And another thing, we don't know what she took with her to the Field of Merrilor and what she left behind in Caemlyn. All we know is that she took the Band with her to Cairhien, iirc.

 

Close, she actually sent one banner from the Band to Cairhien (to establish and maintain the peace) before she went herself. When she went she took 100 QG and was unhappy about taking that many (she wanted to rely on native troops to prove to the populace that she was taking the throne because of her right to it and not because she was conquering them). The entire rest of the Band is still sitting outside Camelyn's walls.

[Mr Ares]

My only real problem w/ Elayne as a monarch and specifically Queen of Andor, is that despite her efforts since taking the throne she took waaaaay too long to go to Camelyn to take the throne. Mat and the Band Travel to Salidar to tell her that her country (the realm she is Daughter-Heir for) is monarch-less and that she is needed in Camelyn.

 

What was does she do?

 

Runs to Ebou Dar w/ Nyn to look for the Bowl. Granted we (as readers) know how important it will be, but she had no real clue what would be involved in using it or whether it even could be used when she went after it.

 

The perpetual summer was something that could have caused massive casualties the longer it went on. Including killing off large numbers of Andorans. So securing the Bowl was important for Andor and the whole world, therefore Elayne cannot be considered negligent in her duties for making sure it is secured. As for why she had to do it herself, only two people went on the need walk in T'a'r - her and Nynaeve. If she didn't go, Nynaeve has to do it all alone. Two people searching improves their chances, therefore I would say she was wholly justified. I do not see how taking steps to prevent the apocalypse can be considered dereliction of duty unless you happen to be one of the four horsemen.

 

 

As I pointed out later in the post, it doesn't matter that she turned out to have been needed to get the Bowl. That is faulty logic. At the time when she made the choice, she didn't KNOW for a fact (such as through a foretelling or Min's viewing, ect.) that she herself was necessary to the search. She wanted to be one of the ones to go, and she and Nyn tried to talk the AS into sending just the two of them to get it, which would have been as bad a fiasco as if she had not gone. I agree that storywise and Saving-the-world-wise that SHE HAD TO GO. Not disputing that.

I would say your logic is faulty. What she knew was that the Bowl was important, and only two people knew how to find it. One was her. She couldn't know for absolute certainty that Nynaeve would fail without her, but it is hardly unreasonable to think that it might hasten the finsing of the Bowl. There is a clear benefit to her going. If she doesn't, if she just goes to Andor, then she takes the throne, and then can do nothing as her people die because Nynaeve didn't find the Bowl in time. She might not have known for a fact, but it was a strong probability. Therefore going was quite reasonable.

 

 

She didn't want to kill Perrin. She acknowledged it might be a simple solution, but then thought that of course she wasn't going to do it. And he is a dangerous rebel threat.

 

Interesting choice of words to try and sustain your argument, Mr. Ares. Even when your point lacks substance and weight.

 

So, perhaps it was I who made a poor choice of words when I posted that Elayne wanted Perrin killed, even though for all intents and purposes, when the thought crossed her mind as a simple solution, that means she wanted or wished for it, however fleetingly.

 

As for him being a dangerous rebel threat, that's got to be your personal take on him and I strongly disagree.

No, it is a plain and simple fact. Much like my username not having a full stop is also plain and simple fact, but lots of people struggle to get that right. The issue is not Perrin going to the aid of his people, it is what he did after that - raising the flag of Manetheren. That right there, that was the act of rebellion. That was where he was wrong. Caemlyn claimed the TR, and right there Perrin said no. TR does not belong to Andor. That was where his rebellion began. This isnot about him saving his people, this si about him proclaiming a part of Andor not to be Andoran any more. A challenge that couldn't go unanswered. And I can hardly condemn someone for an isolated thought that they refuse to act on.

 

Once again, completely untrue. She was warned of an attack, so increased border defences, a logical move. The Waygate was, per Verin's letter, "guarded, barricaded, and thought secure." Given that, she did take reasonable steps.

 

"Completely untrue"? Well, this was certainly neither as interesting nor the right choice of words heh heh

 

Completely untrue, from your POV, you must have meant.

No, I said what I meant.

Because the fact remains that, despite warning that her realm was in danger, Elayne did leave her post to claim the Sun Throne. Now, keep in mind that you're talking to no youngster here, my friend. I have read enough (and not only fantasy) to know that no ruler and commander in chief would leave their post when under threat. And that is completely true.

It is not even close to being true. I've known generals who, on learning that their forces are currently under attack, went back to bed. Because they couldn't issue any orders until they knew the situation, and they couldn't know the situation until it calmed down somewhat. So they were impotent, so why not get some sleep? What could Elayne have done in Caemlyn? Well, the same things she does every day. Useful, in a day to day sense, but not really helping long term. If she goes to Cairhien, she is out for part of the day, can be reached quickly if she is urgently needed, and is doing something useful in the long term. She knows there is a threat coming, but not when. It might be weeks away. It is foolsih to sit around waiting every day for weeks on the off chance today might be the day. Any normal ruler might consider him or hersefl well within his or her rights to, say, go out hunting for the day. She was there if needed. That was enough. She did her duty. As for Verin's letter, of course Elayne didn't read it - if she had, she would have known the Waygate wasn't secure. The letter served only as a useful quote.

 

Say all you want about that hectic runaround across Ebou Dar to find this Bowl of Winds, but the truth remains that there were plenty of Aes Sedai in the vicinity who could have assisted Nynaeve and the Athan Miere to find the device, link and use it.

But they didn't know where it was. Only Nynaeve and Elayne knew that. And the AS didn't help. So, it was either Nynaeve alone or Nynaeve and Elayne.

 

Ishadar's logic is flawless. Yours is not. He considers Elayne irresponsible and negligent. I agree. That makes two of us and one of you. So, again, seems to me like the majority (if not the general consensus) has proven you wrong once again.

Speaking of flawed logic, there are more people arguing than just the three of us, so you need a recount, but even if more people do support you it doesn't make you right. 1+1=2 even if most people want to say 1+1=3.

 

1. Increased guards at the borders will only make a difference if the attack came from outside Andor. If there was a massive army of shadowspawn marching all the way from the blight to Andor's border I really think Elayne would have some intelligence on that. I don't think they could just sneak over leagues of land. Therefore, it seems likely that the shadowspawn must have a way of getting to Andor in an indirect fashion.

It would have been very negligent to leave her border open when presented with the threat of invasion. She was on the lookout for a Trolloc horde advancing, as well.

 

2. The black sister made the attack sound like it was going to be very devastating and very large. By increasing guards on your border you are effectively splitting up your forces more (after all, you have to cover the whole border). So even if the attack came from outside of Andor, there is no way that the guards stationed at one border are going to defeat a huge army of shadowspawn. If anything, I would think it would be more prudent to pool your forces to prevent the shadowspawn from "dividing and conquering" your army.

If you do that, you leave your country open.

 

Now, as far as the envoys sent by Elayne, I can't remember if she sent them before or after she won the throne. But if it was before that, then Perrin is not at fault against the throne, because legitimate heir or not, fact is Elayne was still not queen and Rand was still ruler over Andor.

Rand was never the lawful ruler of Andor, by his own admission. After Morgase, Elayne became Queen. Rand was just holding it for her.

 

 

Really? So you must not have read WoT very carefully as it has events like Rand leaving Tear open to the possibility of Sammael's Illianers invading in TSR, Tuon going on adventure with Mat or the Borderlands monarchs deserting the Blight with most of their armies to go ask Rand a question.

As for Rand leaving Tear open, yeah, he did. Though, in all fairness, the guy was raised to be a simple farmer and sheepherder. He wasn't brought up to be a ruler like Elayne was and it seems to me he learned his lesson well, since Sisnera has been holding the fort quite nicely at Tear up to this point. So, again the comparison is not very accurate.

In TSR, Darlin Sisnera was in rebellion against Rand. He remained so until ACOS. At the time he left there was open rebellion against his rule, and he wasn't too secure in his support, and he had a foreign enemy in Illian.

 

 

"Andoran army still outnumbers TR army big time" - maybe, but not Perrin's army. The Wolf Guard masses over 80,000 troops.

You can't count the Whitecloaks, remember. Probably not Mayene either, as neither of them is sworn to Perrin. Only TR, Ghealdan and the refugees. All in all, while Perrin might have more soldiers then and there, he doesn't have more in total, and his advantage is not great enough to secure victory - if Elayne retreats to Caemlyn, she has the advantage of its defences, and he cannot effectively besige it due to the Kin.

 

Channelers. Since you were including them when talking about forces for battle, I have to assume that you mean Battle Capable Channelers.

 

Elayne = 0

Perrin = 8

 

Yes, she has more for Traveling and Healing, but that is ALL the Kin will do for her. That will not help when the 2 Asha'man start "Rolling Waves of Fire and Earth" through her ranks while linked in a circle w/ 3 WO's each.

Elayne has Elayne - at least one. Assuming she couldn't get the other AS in the city to come to her aid. Perrin has no AS who he can be sure of, nor can he guarantee the WO will fight for him against Elayne. That leaves at most two. And if Asha'man attck Caemlyn, Elayne has a much greater chance of roping other channelers in to help her. If there are eight AS at the Silver Swan, she has nine to his two. Advantage Elayne in this respect. Plus she has more for Traveling and Healing, a big plus even if they aren't front line soldiers. She also has the Dragons, even if she doesn't have Mat. They're in her city and she knows how to use them. If the battle takes place away from Caemlyn, she has time to gather her full stength - 200,000 soldiers. And take Cairhien as well, and add their army. Perrin only has a numbers advantage if the fight is right then and there.

 

 

He might not be dangerous rebel as in actively seeking to overthrown goverment and take it's place but he's dangerous rebel by mere fact he is rebel.

He´s not a rebel. TR is not a part of Andor.

Perrin does not agree. Elayne does not agree.

[Darth Krewl]

...

 

Listen, I've no problem debating you till we both drop death of old age arguing all this stuff, if you like heh heh...but, I'm just gonna respectfully request that you procure to include all of my quotes that you wish to counter in one single post, if possible, so I can reply accordingly. Otherwise, this becomes like a childish squabble in a playground and I'm not interested in that, in the very least.

 

Thank you.

[Kaznen]

But even if it was about Elayne, it still doesn't justify the girl not doing her homework and respecting Mat and Perrin for their importance as Ta'veren and as a very important part of the prophecies. Because, unlike Elaida's foretell, the Karaethon Cycle does make clear references to Mat and Perrin, both (the Wolf King, the Fox who shall marry the Raven, etc.)

 

Ummm...Elayne isn't even aware of the fact Perrin is the Wolf King. Last time she met them was back when Rand took Tear. Perrin wasn't exactly going around telling everybody about his connections to wolves back then...Ditto with Fox. Has Mat told Elayne he is "Fox who shall marry the raven"? I don't think so!

 

Those prophecies don't mention Mat or Perrin by name or describe them in any way that would people go "ah! He's the wolf king!" the second they see. How is Elayne supposed to know Perrin is Wolf King when Perrin for example doesn't inform her about his connection to wolves?-)

 

Oh but I forgot! Unless Elayne is omniscient and knows everything she's idiot according to your standards.

When the Seanchan Banner-General saw Perrin's eyes and his hammer she asked if he was the Wolf King in the Prophecies. It isn't to far fetched to expect Elayne, who knows Perrin is ta'veren and closely tied to Rand, to come to that conclusion as well.

[Durinax]

But even if it was about Elayne, it still doesn't justify the girl not doing her homework and respecting Mat and Perrin for their importance as Ta'veren and as a very important part of the prophecies. Because, unlike Elaida's foretell, the Karaethon Cycle does make clear references to Mat and Perrin, both (the Wolf King, the Fox who shall marry the Raven, etc.)

 

Ummm...Elayne isn't even aware of the fact Perrin is the Wolf King. Last time she met them was back when Rand took Tear. Perrin wasn't exactly going around telling everybody about his connections to wolves back then...Ditto with Fox. Has Mat told Elayne he is "Fox who shall marry the raven"? I don't think so!

 

Those prophecies don't mention Mat or Perrin by name or describe them in any way that would people go "ah! He's the wolf king!" the second they see. How is Elayne supposed to know Perrin is Wolf King when Perrin for example doesn't inform her about his connection to wolves?-)

 

Oh but I forgot! Unless Elayne is omniscient and knows everything she's idiot according to your standards.

When the Seanchan Banner-General saw Perrin's eyes and his hammer she asked if he was the Wolf King in the Prophecies. It isn't to far fetched to expect Elayne, who knows Perrin is ta'veren and closely tied to Rand, to come to that conclusion as well.

do we knwo which prophecies that came from? cause if its the seanchan only prophecies theres no way for elayne to know.

[Darth Krewl]

No, it is a plain and simple fact. Much like my username not having a full stop is also plain and simple fact, but lots of people struggle to get that right. The issue is not Perrin going to the aid of his people, it is what he did after that - raising the flag of Manetheren. That right there, that was the act of rebellion. That was where he was wrong. Caemlyn claimed the TR, and right there Perrin said no. TR does not belong to Andor. That was where his rebellion began. This isnot about him saving his people, this si about him proclaiming a part of Andor not to be Andoran any more. A challenge that couldn't go unanswered. And I can hardly condemn someone for an isolated thought that they refuse to act on.

 

Mr. Ares, with all due respect, I believe you should learn a little more about psychology and metaphysics. Because, while thought doesn't always lead to deed, it's still an action, no matter how fleeting, of the mind that reflects our mood regarding a certain subject. Hence, the mere fact of thinking Perrin dead convenient to her, even if it was for just a nanosecond before discarding/disregarding the idea, means that Elayne actually considered the possibility. But I agree, many people seem to fail to get that right. You amongst them, obviously.

 

 

No, I said what I meant.

 

Exactly, you said what you meant, which is akin to stating your opinion. Alas, try as you might, your opinion is not above anyone else's. So, when I say that I do not agree that was untrue, I also mean it. And, like it or not, my opinion is as valid and respectable as yours.

 

Now, keep in mind that you're talking to no youngster here, my friend. I have read enough (and not only fantasy) to know that no ruler and commander in chief would leave their post when under threat. And that is completely true.

 

It is not even close to being true. I've known generals who, on learning that their forces are currently under attack, went back to bed.

 

As you can see, I didn't say generals, as my words above clearly indicate. I said rulers and commanders in chief (as in rulers who, while not military career men, take control of their armed forces during times of war, like they always have). And this is not a matter of semantics or terminology. It's a matter of perfectly well-established rank within the command chain in an urgent military conflict situation, such as a threat to a nation. The ruler does not leave her/his post at any given time, till the crisis has passed. And that's a fact.

 

I have no problem debating all that you like, but please, refrain yourself from twisting/misconstruing my words just to try and boost your arguments. I consider that akin to cheating, so let's keep a sportsmanlike attitude here, if you please.

 

Say all you want about that hectic runaround across Ebou Dar to find this Bowl of Winds, but the truth remains that there were plenty of Aes Sedai in the vicinity who could have assisted Nynaeve and the Athan Miere to find the device, link and use it.

 

But they didn't know where it was. Only Nynaeve and Elayne knew that. And the AS didn't help. So, it was either Nynaeve alone or Nynaeve and Elayne.

 

Seems to me like, at least, we both agree that Nynaeve's participation in that whole passage was imperative. And it would seem clear that we both know she was there. The highlights in bold clearly prove that. Therefore, you are boosting my case, if anything.

 

Speaking of flawed logic, there are more people arguing than just the three of us, so you need a recount, but even if more people do support you it doesn't make you right. 1+1=2 even if most people want to say 1+1=3.

 

Oh yes, there's far many more people arguing this other than us two. However, I wouldn't recommend a tally or count of opinions, because it would seem clear to me that I am with the majority, whereas you're not. But even if that wasn't the case, I presume that you would stand by your logic, flawed or not, just like I stand by mine. I just happen to be part of the general consensus, that's all there is to it.

 

 

Rand was never the lawful ruler of Andor, by his own admission. After Morgase, Elayne became Queen. Rand was just holding it for her.

 

Indeed. Then, why didn't she take the throne from Rand, but had to fight for her rights? Sorry, my friend, but I believe that you love to argue so much, that you're even countering your own arguments now heh heh...it's very simple: Elayne was offered the throne of Andor on a silver platter. She refused to take it, for fear of being seen as an unlawfully crowned queen, because she wasn't staking her legal claim, but effectively taking it from an invader and conqueror.

 

All the more power to my argument, because this means that, any envoys, messengers, ambassadors, diplomats, etc. that she may have sent while not legally recognized as the queen of Andor do not stand for the official authority of the throne. Hence, refusing to acknowledge her petitions is not only valid, but the right thing to do in that instance. Once she became officially recognized as queen and ruler of Andor, Perrin went to her, like the situation demanded. So, again, it was her who was at fault here and never him.

 

In TSR, Darlin Sisnera was in rebellion against Rand. He remained so until ACOS. At the time he left there was open rebellion against his rule, and he wasn't too secure in his support, and he had a foreign enemy in Illian.

 

Yeah well, I meant the guy whom Rand named King of Tear. Dobraine, I think. Please forgive me for calling him Sisnera, WoT isn't even among my top 3 favorite stories so, while I like it, I certainly don't remember the name of every single secondary or minor character by heart. It would seem to me that you do know it by heart and I commend you on that, but that's besides my point.

 

The point is that, while many like you make a big deal of Elayne refusing to do take the throne directly from Rand, sacrificing men that will be needed for the Last Battle in the process, and defend her rashness and haste for leaving Andor in a time of crisis, nobody seems to remember the guy who sits in the throne of Tear. Curious and very amusing, at once.

 

Rand put him there, not giving a hoot about tradition in a land that was ruled by a council of High Lords and not one single monarch. In addition, Tear's new king has remained in place, strengthening his armed forces, because of the imminent possibility of a Seanchan attack.

 

IMO, the situation is nearly identical to Elayne's in Andor and I find it very funny to see how people will try to justify her and make a big deal out of it, while nobody compares it to the King of Tear. Now, there's a smart one for you. He took the throne, didn't give a hoot of being named King by Rand, and has done a great job of protecting his soil and rule. He puts Elayne to shame in many more ways than one.

[Durinax]

Mr Ares, on 01 December 2010 - 06:56 AM, said:

 

In TSR, Darlin Sisnera was in rebellion against Rand. He remained so until ACOS. At the time he left there was open rebellion against his rule, and he wasn't too secure in his support, and he had a foreign enemy in Illian.

 

 

Yeah well, I meant the guy whom Rand named King of Tear. Dobraine, I think. Please forgive me for calling him Sisnera, WoT isn't even among my top 3 favorite stories so, while I like it, I certainly don't remember the name of every single secondary or minor character by heart. It would seem to me that you do know it by heart and I commend you on that, but that's besides my point.

 

The point is that, while many like you make a big deal of Elayne refusing to do take the throne directly from Rand, sacrificing men that will be needed for the Last Battle in the process, and defend her rashness and haste for leaving Andor in a time of crisis, nobody seems to remember the guy who sits in the throne of Tear. Curious and very amusing, at once.

 

Rand put him there, not giving a hoot about tradition in a land that was ruled by a council of High Lords and not one single monarch. In addition, Tear's new king has remained in place, strengthening his armed forces, because of the imminent possibility of a Seanchan attack.

 

IMO, the situation is nearly identical to Elayne's in Andor and I find it very funny to see how people will try to justify her and make a big deal out of it, while nobody compares it to the King of Tear. Now, there's a smart one for you. He took the throne, didn't give a hoot of being named King by Rand, and has done a great job of protecting his soil and rule. He puts Elayne to shame in many more ways than one.

 

but it isnt, rand appointed Darlin steward of tear, and in an effort to make tear more sovereign again they appointed Darlin King. This is way different, and if Elayne would have accepted the throne straight from rand then Andor would be plunged into a civil war anyways, which would have ended up wiht almost every armsman in the country dead, and a great deal of the population due to riots and such.

[dwn]

Speaking of flawed logic, there are more people arguing than just the three of us, so you need a recount, but even if more people do support you it doesn't make you right. 1+1=2 even if most people want to say 1+1=3.

 

Oh yes, there's far many more people arguing this other than us two. However, I wouldn't recommend a tally or count of opinions, because it would seem clear to me that I am with the majority, whereas you're not. But even if that wasn't the case, I presume that you would stand by your logic, flawed or not, just like I stand by mine. I just happen to be part of the general consensus, that's all there is to it.

 

Speaking of logic, you may wish to look up 'ad populum' aka an appeal to popularity.

 

-- dwn

[Darth Krewl]

but it isnt, rand appointed Darlin steward of tear, and in an effort to make tear more sovereign again they appointed Darlin King. This is way different, and if Elayne would have accepted the throne straight from rand then Andor would be plunged into a civil war anyways, which would have ended up wiht almost every armsman in the country dead, and a great deal of the population due to riots and such.

 

Okay, so I'll look for the guy's name first chance I get, 'cause I just don't remember lol! But for now, I'll call him the King of Tear...

 

IMO, the difference is a mere matter of POV. And from mine, it's like this

 

Person A is the legitimate heir to the throne of Andor. Person B is a High Lord of Tear. Both are offered the thrones of their respective countries by the Dragon Reborn. A refuses, B accepts.

 

A goes to war in an effort to stake her legitimate (can't stress this enough) claim to the throne 'cause she fears being seen as a puppet of the Dragon Reborn and unlawful ruler 'cause she was put on the throne by a forgeign invader. So, she goes on to start a civil war to stake her claim, weakening her country in the process.

 

B doesn't give a sh*t lol! Not only is he not the legitimate heir to the throne of his country, but there is no throne to his country. He ignores any reprisals that may be coming his way from other High Lords, not only for accepting a rule given to him by a foreign invader, but by breaking his nation's long standing traditions. He builds up his armed forces and strengthens his rule in the process.

 

B wins and it's not even close.

 

But, if we're going to skip technicalities such as these and nit-pick, then Elayne is even more of an idiot for looking ahead into a future that will NEVER come. That's right. I wrote it will NEVER come.

 

Because, frankly, it boggles the mind to see how many characters and readers alike seem to be forgetting that, no matter who wins Tarmon Gai'don, the conflict will change the face of the earth forever. It will break the world again, even if the Light wins, because this is no little skirmish we're talking about. This is the mother of all battles and all throughout the series, we have been reading it mentioned as the "last days". That's no accident. It is by design. What this means is that, after it's all said and done, the world of TWoT will be as changed and impossible to recognize as it was after the War of Power and the Breaking.

 

So, in this case, Elayne was extremely stupid for going through all the trouble that she went through to secure her rule and try to diminish the damage, because her country was not headed for civil war, chaos and riots. Andor was and still is headed for a world-wide war that will be a hundred times worse than that. And the invasion of Caemlyn, precisely, indicates just that. Alas, Elayne was too busy, making plans for her future rule of Caihrien and the fate of the Two Rivers, to notice the REALLY important problem that, not only her, but all of humankind in her world are facing.

 

So even if the Light wins, the whole political, geographical and social structure of the entire world and not just the Randland, will change. And at this point, it would seem to me that only those leaders/rulers under Rand are preparing correctly for the future (and the immediate future, that is), getting ready to face Tarmon Gai'don.

 

Only Elayne and Egwene are short-sighted and stupid enough to be yielding to their ambition and making long term plans when there's a very likely possibility that, after Tarmon Gai'don, there will be no more Andor and no more White Tower, at least as the world had come to know them. Typical of teens, I know, but that doesn't make it any stupid of them. If anything, it means that the Dumb & Dumber of the WoT world are not qualified to hold their positions in the very least.

 

Speaking of flawed logic, there are more people arguing than just the three of us, so you need a recount, but even if more people do support you it doesn't make you right. 1+1=2 even if most people want to say 1+1=3.

 

Oh yes, there's far many more people arguing this other than us two. However, I wouldn't recommend a tally or count of opinions, because it would seem clear to me that I am with the majority, whereas you're not. But even if that wasn't the case, I presume that you would stand by your logic, flawed or not, just like I stand by mine. I just happen to be part of the general consensus, that's all there is to it.

 

Speaking of logic, you may wish to look up 'ad populum' aka an appeal to popularity.

 

 

The part in bold means that I always stand by my logic, no matter how flawed or unpopular. Never been one to care all that much about popularity or political correctness. In fact, I've been called antisocial for my rather personal and radical views more than once. I didn't come to this world to make friends or win popularity contests. I came to think and act for myself. But this time, as fate would have it, I only happen to be within the majority, as my quote above clearly seems to indicate.

 

 

Edited to include my reply to dwn. It seems to be personally addressed to me and in no way related to the topic at hand, but I always reply to those who address me, even when they do so in the wrong place/at the wrong time.

[dwn]

but it isnt, rand appointed Darlin steward of tear, and in an effort to make tear more sovereign again they appointed Darlin King. This is way different, and if Elayne would have accepted the throne straight from rand then Andor would be plunged into a civil war anyways, which would have ended up wiht almost every armsman in the country dead, and a great deal of the population due to riots and such.

 

Person A is the legitimate heir to the throne of Andor. Person B is a High Lord of Tear. Both are offered the thrones of their respective countries by the Dragon Reborn. A refuses, B accepts.

 

Your premise is wrong. As Durinax pointed out, Rand made Darlin the steward of Tear. The other High Lords then asked Darlin to become the first King of Tear. This is very similar to the succession in Andor: the throne is granted by the local aristocracy, not by an external power.

 

-- dwn

[Creslin321]

....

 

Hey Mr. Ares, I'm just going to respond to your response to my post.

 

First, I agree that it is prudent for Elayne to be on the lookout at her border. But for that I think she should have just sent out more scouting parties, not split her army up. Splitting her army up may have made more sense if Andor was surrounded by fortifications or something, but it's not. There's no way 1/50th of her army is going to stop the a huge Trolloc horde at her border. The best they will do is salvage some of their number and get a message to Caemlyn...scouts would serve the same purpose.

 

I also understand that gathering your forces leaves your country open. So maybe it wouldn't be prudent to pull the border guard back until you know exactly what's coming. Still, it's even less prudent to over-commit forces to your border.

 

In summary, I think the issue that I and some others have with Elayne's response to the "impending attack" intelligence is that she never gave it adequate consideration. She knew there was an attack probably coming, and since she had no previous intelligence on it, it's probably some kind of sneak attack. She should have realized she did not know enough and went on an aggressive information gathering campaign. Hold brainstorming meetings with the military commanders, probe your own kingdom for weaknesses. Then once she has approriately analyzed the situation she could take some kind of action. It was basically just typical Elayne, action without thought. Just sending more guards to the border is not enough.

[Darth Krewl]

Your premise is wrong. As Durinax pointed out, Rand made Darlin the steward of Tear. The other High Lords then asked Darlin to become the first King of Tear. This is very similar to the succession in Andor: the throne is granted by the local aristocracy, not by an external power.

 

-- dwn

 

Oh okay, so the guy was crowned because his own peers demanded it and is legitimately acknowledged, I see. Thanks for clarifying it. My bad, yep.

 

Still, as I was writing that post, I realized that the whole thing is inconsequential when compared to Tarmon Gai'don. Randlanders have to have rulers and order in place to face the Shadow, but while Perrin, for instance, has been doing everything with the "Last Hunt" in mind, Elayne has been doing it for personal glory and a future that, I'm sure won't be what she's been expecting. IMO, the only good thing she's done related to the Last Battle since she gained the throne was strike that deal with Mat to assure the cannons/dragons.

 

Other than that, I'm positive the Randland will change radically after the Last Battle, so she could've easily taken the throne from Rand, because even if the Light wins, things will be completely different and the most pressing thing for all will be rebuilding their world. Then again, if the Light loses...well, her reign will be short-lived, indeed.

 

And also thanks for staying on topic. I don't mind derailing a topic if it happens naturally but, when it's about personal stuff non-related to the topic, I really don't feel like it's right.

[Creslin321]

To the people who think Elayne wouldn't think that an attack could come from within Caemlyn...

 

Did she not think the nobles would attack her from one particular outside area during the sucession? and yet the Hire-swords rebelled WITHIN the gates against her. would this not constitute an attack within the city?

 

The BA said an attack against Andor right?

 

Surely inside her own city constitutes part of andor? what if BT attacked? thats what easily covered distance to Caemlyn right?

 

Elayne Left without sufficient thought about the probable sorts of attacks and therefore the consequences of the attack are in large part her fault

 

User2006, I completely agree with you.

 

It really bothered me that Elayne didn't even bother to consider what kind of attack may come. You make a great point about Caemlyn being surrounded by MERCENARIES that could potentially be bought off by the highest bidder. There are so many potential ways that Caemlyn could be attacked, and Elayne just said:

 

"Impending attack? Hmm...increase the guards at the border, okay now off to Cairhien Ta ta!"

 

I really think it was a ridiculously irresponsible thing for a ruler to do. Totally in character for Elayne, but ridiculously irresponsibile.

[dwn]

Still, as I was writing that post, I realized that the whole thing is inconsequential when compared to Tarmon Gai'don. Randlanders have to have rulers and order in place to face the Shadow, but while Perrin, for instance, has been doing everything with the "Last Hunt" in mind, Elayne has been doing it for personal glory and a future that, I'm sure won't be what she's been expecting. IMO, the only good thing she's done related to the Last Battle since she gained the throne was strike that deal with Mat to assure the cannons/dragons.

 

By the end of ToM, barely two months have passed since Elayne took the throne. During that time she has secured and stabilized Andor and Cairhien, and begun marshalling all her forces for TG. That she's also planning for the future beyond TG is something any responsible ruler would do.

 

Other than that, I'm positive the Randland will change radically after the Last Battle, so she could've easily taken the throne from Rand, because even if the Light wins, things will be completely different and the most pressing thing for all will be rebuilding their world. Then again, if the Light loses...well, her reign will be short-lived, indeed.

 

Just because the future is uncertain doesn't mean you shouldn't plan for it as best you can.

 

And also thanks for staying on topic. I don't mind derailing a topic if it happens naturally but, when it's about personal stuff non-related to the topic, I really don't feel like it's right.

 

I was pointing out a logical fallacy in your argument. it was not off topic nor intended as a personal attack.

 

-- dwn

[Darth Krewl]

In summary, I think the issue that I and some others have with Elayne's response to the "impending attack" intelligence is that she never gave it adequate consideration. She knew there was an attack probably coming, and since she had no previous intelligence on it, it's probably some kind of sneak attack. She should have realized she did not know enough and went on an aggressive information gathering campaign. Hold brainstorming meetings with the military commanders, probe your own kingdom for weaknesses. Then once she has approriately analyzed the situation she could take some kind of action. It was basically just typical Elayne, action without thought. Just sending more guards to the border is not enough.

 

Spot on. This has been my point all along.

 

Not to mention that I must insist, no ruler in his/her right mind would leave their post when faced with a potential military crisis, at least until said crisis has passed. You don't leave the rule of your nation in the hands of your advisers during a crisis, because executive decisions belong to you. 'cause either way, you'll be held accountable for any mistakes those whom you left in your stead may commit. It is your rule, not theirs. It comes with the territory; it's part of the job description.

[Suttree]

In summary, I think the issue that I and some others have with Elayne's response to the "impending attack" intelligence is that she never gave it adequate consideration. She knew there was an attack probably coming, and since she had no previous intelligence on it, it's probably some kind of sneak attack. She should have realized she did not know enough and went on an aggressive information gathering campaign. Hold brainstorming meetings with the military commanders, probe your own kingdom for weaknesses. Then once she has approriately analyzed the situation she could take some kind of action. It was basically just typical Elayne, action without thought. Just sending more guards to the border is not enough.

 

Spot on. This has been my point all along.

 

Not to mention that I must insist, no ruler in his/her right mind would leave their post when faced with a potential military crisis, at least until said crisis has passed. You don't leave the rule of your nation in the hands of your advisers during a crisis, because executive decisions belong to you. 'cause either way, you'll be held accountable for any mistakes those whom you left in your stead may commit. It is your rule, not theirs. It comes with the territory; it's part of the job description.

 

 

Because we havent seen numerous other rulers in Randland do this? Look at ALL of the Borderland nations just to use one example.

[Darth Krewl]

By the end of ToM, barely two months have passed since Elayne took the throne. During that time she has secured and stabilized Andor and Cairhien, and begun marshalling all her forces for TG. That she's also planning for the future beyond TG is something any responsible ruler would do.

 

Well, this is a matter of personal interpretation, of course. 'cause from my POV, what Elayne did at the end of ToM was leave her post unattended during a most pressing time of crisis, as I've stated on my last post. And the result is that Caemlyn is under major attack and may be lost to the Shadow by the time we get to read AMoL. And, for the sake of all, I hope it is, so that they may finally spring into action. Enough with discussing things over tea and forming committees already lol!

 

Just because the future is uncertain doesn't mean you shouldn't plan for it as best you can.

 

No lol! This isn't Star Wars ("hard to see, the future is. Always in motion", like Yoda said). All of the Prophecies point to Tarmon Gai'don as the "end of days" and at the Dragon Reborn bringing another Breaking of the World. At least, to my understanding, the foreshadowing is clear as daylight on a sunny day in Cancun's beaches.

 

So, IMO, all those familiar with the Prophecies (I'd assume that as a high born lady of Andor, Elayne would know the Prophecies, a little bit, at least, though nothing she's ever done leads me to believe this) should be preparing for the worst and not assume anything; especially, never assume that things will go back to "normal", to the way they were before, because they won't be like that anymore.

 

You can't think that you'll lose, 'cause you've got to go into battle in the most positive, psyched-up state of mind possible, but you have to understand that, even if/when you win, things will change. And therein lies the uncertainty about the future. You can't tell for sure how things will stand after it's all been said and done but the only certainty is that things will change radically.

 

Consider this: how many nations fell during the Trolloc War? How much did the Randland change after Hawkwing's Empire? Not to mention the major, radical changes that the world went through, during and after the War of Power. Well, those 3 events were nothing compared to what Tarmon Gai'don will bring, I assure you. Otherwise, this wouldn't be the most epic event in the history of the WoT series and I think it's more than obvious that Jordan (and now Sanderson) are describing the most relevant times of this universe.

 

So, if you're gonna plan for the future, then plan for this: survival and victory. And, after you've made sure you're the last one standing, then you can concern yourself with rebuilding your nation. 'cause I'm sure nothing will be left standing of your old world. Nothing at all. Remember, the Wheel is always turning and willing things according to its turns. And, for better or worse, what we've been reading is the end of the Third Age.

 

I was pointing out a logical fallacy in your argument. it was not off topic nor intended as a personal attack.

 

-- dwn

 

Yeah, I understand now. It's all good. Sorry for my reaction, my bad.

[Creslin321]

In summary, I think the issue that I and some others have with Elayne's response to the "impending attack" intelligence is that she never gave it adequate consideration. She knew there was an attack probably coming, and since she had no previous intelligence on it, it's probably some kind of sneak attack. She should have realized she did not know enough and went on an aggressive information gathering campaign. Hold brainstorming meetings with the military commanders, probe your own kingdom for weaknesses. Then once she has approriately analyzed the situation she could take some kind of action. It was basically just typical Elayne, action without thought. Just sending more guards to the border is not enough.

 

Spot on. This has been my point all along.

 

Not to mention that I must insist, no ruler in his/her right mind would leave their post when faced with a potential military crisis, at least until said crisis has passed. You don't leave the rule of your nation in the hands of your advisers during a crisis, because executive decisions belong to you. 'cause either way, you'll be held accountable for any mistakes those whom you left in your stead may commit. It is your rule, not theirs. It comes with the territory; it's part of the job description.

 

 

Because we havent seen numerous other rulers in Randland do this? Look at ALL of the Borderland nations just to use one example.

 

If all the rulers in Randland jumped off a cliff would it make it okay to do :)?

 

Also, the Borderland rulers got seriously told off by Rand for abandoning their posts. The Borderlands are really suffering because of what their rulers did. I think this serves as an example as to why you should NOT abandon your post in times of war, not as to why it's okay.

[Alternate34]

I can't respond to every argument, though Mr Ares is doing well which is no surprise. I will respond to a few.

 

First, Elayne's maneuver to secure Cairhien is a good tactical move in preparation for TG. Cairhien was deprived a leader who was strong and guaranteed to be walking in the Light, and The Dragon Reborn has kind of left them high and dry. Elayne supplies that leader. It is also a good move for after TG because it provides stability to an area that has already been ravaged by the build up to TG. It is clear throughout the novels that strong leaders walking in the Light provide good governance. The people will benefit and morale will be boosted, which is good for TG.

 

Second, and more importantly, those saying that Elayne shouldn't prepare for a world past TG are daft for several reasons. I will demonstrate with an analogy to everyone's favorite, the Dragon Reborn. He drove himself mad. His belief that he need only prepare for TG was a primary cause of his madness. That he thought himself only a living weapon against the Shadow almost doomed the world. If every ruler and citizen in Randland started thinking this way, that would drive everyone mad, and they would be doomed to fail, just as Rand was doomed to fail until he rediscovered love and compassion.

 

You may ask why? The answer is simple. The author wrote it that way (HAHAHAHA HAHA HA. Chuckle. Hmmmmmm.)

 

Less flippant, the reason why is that a world where TG is the only thing that matters is an empty one. Logically, everything should be subordinate to defeating the Dark One. However, when one subordinates everything to that goal, one loses what they are really fighting for. Sure, Elayne could conscript everyone, train them in whatever she felt was of the greatest need, funnel all food to her armies, and give the peasants and sick the middle finger while singing "Triage for TG" in her melodious voice while Thom accompanies her playing the flute.

 

Instead, she thought, after TG, people will still need an effective government. I am better than the others. If I don't secure rule, than the aftermath of TG will be even worse. The effect is to better prepare for TG because people will be fighting for something beyond bare existence. They know a win will also guarantee them some food afterwards, some justice, some good things. It gives people a reason to fight.

 

On a sidenote, Elayne is partially motivated by power, but this isn't Harry Potter where the desire for power is absolute evil unless you have purely holy intentions. Those in power recognize that they must have it or else others will seize it for evil.

 

Uncertainty of the future doesn't mean become insane. It means preparing to guide it with strong institutions rather than abandoning them. The aftermath of past wars in WoT PROVE this. It is better to try to keep those institutions rather than let them die off because if you don't, civilization will be slowed to a crawl. Like what happened after the Breaking, and the Trolloc wars, and when Ishamael purposely broke up the Hawkwing empire. Those nations were targetted and destroyed by the Dark One because they were a threat. Conceding that you can't nation build is conceding a victory to the Dark One.

 

Additionally, Darth Krewl, your interpretation of the world after TG is amusing to say the least but at odds with the materials presented. Aviendha's visions seem to indicate that both Andor and Seanchan will remain after TG. The Breaking does not have to happen the same way as the end of the Second Age. In fact, the "Breaking of the world" by the Dragon Reborn may actually be an acceleration of technology, changing the face of Randland with widespread use of gunpowder and projectile weapons. He has set up schooled and the Dragons are built. Assuming that the whole world goes poof is crazy.

[David Selig]

This is really going in circles so I will restrain myself from replying to the recent posts I'd just go on tangent and comment on something else related to Elayne in ToM - I was quite disappointed we didn't see her meeting Lini. It would've been a hilarious scene.

 

"You got pregnant before getting married! I should really box your ears or better yet spank you, you silly girl. Who's the father, I will get him here right now and have you married in a hour!"

"The Dragon Reborn"

"Dragon Reborn or not, I will box his ears and make him marry you, we can't have this outrage!"

[Suttree]

In summary, I think the issue that I and some others have with Elayne's response to the "impending attack" intelligence is that she never gave it adequate consideration. She knew there was an attack probably coming, and since she had no previous intelligence on it, it's probably some kind of sneak attack. She should have realized she did not know enough and went on an aggressive information gathering campaign. Hold brainstorming meetings with the military commanders, probe your own kingdom for weaknesses. Then once she has approriately analyzed the situation she could take some kind of action. It was basically just typical Elayne, action without thought. Just sending more guards to the border is not enough.

 

Spot on. This has been my point all along.

 

Not to mention that I must insist, no ruler in his/her right mind would leave their post when faced with a potential military crisis, at least until said crisis has passed. You don't leave the rule of your nation in the hands of your advisers during a crisis, because executive decisions belong to you. 'cause either way, you'll be held accountable for any mistakes those whom you left in your stead may commit. It is your rule, not theirs. It comes with the territory; it's part of the job description.

 

 

Because we havent seen numerous other rulers in Randland do this? Look at ALL of the Borderland nations just to use one example.

 

If all the rulers in Randland jumped off a cliff would it make it okay to do :)?

 

Also, the Borderland rulers got seriously told off by Rand for abandoning their posts. The Borderlands are really suffering because of what their rulers did. I think this serves as an example as to why you should NOT abandon your post in times of war, not as to why it's okay.

 

Wasn't saying that's an example of why it's ok. Darth mentioned that no ruler in his right mind would leave their post. I've supplied a number of others that have done it. You can't only hold Elayne accountable for these types of actions. There are obvs many things in play and it's not a cut and dry situation of "abandoning" ones post.

[blazetheearth]

I can't respond to every argument, though Mr Ares is doing well which is no surprise. I will respond to a few.

 

On a sidenote, Elayne is partially motivated by power, but this isn't Harry Potter where the desire for power is absolute evil unless you have purely holy intentions. Those in power recognize that they must have it or else others will seize it for evil.

 

Additionally, Darth Krewl, your interpretation of the world after TG is amusing to say the least but at odds with the materials presented. Aviendha's visions seem to indicate that both Andor and Seanchan will remain after TG. The Breaking does not have to happen the same way as the end of the Second Age. In fact, the "Breaking of the world" by the Dragon Reborn may actually be an acceleration of technology, changing the face of Randland with widespread use of gunpowder and projectile weapons. He has set up schooled and the Dragons are built. Assuming that the whole world goes poof is crazy.

 

I agree with almost everything in your post and will only take issue with the comments quoted above.

 

In the first post you actually make our (the side that dislikes Elayne for the way she thinks) for us, but I doubt that you considered that you did so. Your comment: "Those in power recognize that they must have it or else others will seize it for evil." states as a bald fact "WILL SEIZE it for EVIL" So the argument is that she should seize it first to keep it from "Evil", but neither you nor her consider that someone ELSE besides her might hold that power and do good with it. It seems that she gives no one else a chance to prove that they could do good with that power, even if their vision of good is different from hers that is no reason to think that they will do "Evil" unless she considers EVERYTHING that does not match her vision of "Good" as being "Evil". Tru, this is a common misconception in a teenager, but not an enviable trait, especially in a Queen. Again I want to point out that your own post used "WILL SEIZE" not "might seize", not "may seize", and not "could seize", but "WILL SEIZE", and I agree that is how Elayne thinks, but that does not make it right for her to think it.

 

For the other, what could Avi's possibly have to do with Elayne. None of her actions are based on them, and judging her on the basis of them is just foolish. They prove nothing at all, since it is yet to be seen as to (unlike Min's Viewings) we do not know yet whether or not she can change them. But right or wrong we can only judge her actions based on what she knew at the time she performs those actions, not on something she had no way of knowing and therefor couldn't affect her decision making process. Just because we (as readers) have the info from Avi's vision, only one Randlander has that info, and we have not seen yet where/when she disseminates it among the forces of the Light. The characters and people of Randland believe that there will be another Breaking, and it is their belief and knowledge that affect what they do, not what we know or think we do. Try to separate what you as the reader know from what the character knows, then look at her actions again. It was her decisions based on what she had been taught and what she had learned that formed the basis Darth Krewl's comments.

[Darth Krewl]

Second, and more importantly, those saying that Elayne shouldn't prepare for a world past TG are daft for several reasons. I will demonstrate with an analogy to everyone's favorite, the Dragon Reborn. He drove himself mad. His belief that he need only prepare for TG was a primary cause of his madness. That he thought himself only a living weapon against the Shadow almost doomed the world. If every ruler and citizen in Randland started thinking this way, that would drive everyone mad, and they would be doomed to fail, just as Rand was doomed to fail until he rediscovered love and compassion.

 

Um...actually, the primary cause why the Dragon Reborn went mad is because he channeled too much, under the influence of the taint. Y'know, that little nasty trick that the DO pulled on Lews Therin and his brave 100 mates when they went to SG to seal the Bore?

 

I'm sure that the faint of heart or the mentally unstable would probably crack under the pressure of knowing that your world may just be coming to an end. Y'know, suicide rates going up, people doing crazy things they wouldn't normally do, that sorta thing. Yes, that's to be expected.

 

But, for all of the population to be thrown in the same sack as their savior, assuming that every single person would react the same way to extreme stress, well...please forgive me for completely dismissing this notion...

 

Less flippant, the reason why is that a world where TG is the only thing that matters is an empty one. Logically, everything should be subordinate to defeating the Dark One.

 

Exactly. Sow your field first, before deciding how much you're gonna charge for your crops and where you're gonna sell them, as I think someone like Tam al'Thor would say.

 

Uncertainty of the future doesn't mean become insane. It means preparing to guide it with strong institutions rather than abandoning them. The aftermath of past wars in WoT PROVE this. It is better to try to keep those institutions rather than let them die off because if you don't, civilization will be slowed to a crawl. Like what happened after the Breaking, and the Trolloc wars, and when Ishamael purposely broke up the Hawkwing empire. Those nations were targetted and destroyed by the Dark One because they were a threat. Conceding that you can't nation build is conceding a victory to the Dark One.

 

With all due respect, Alternate, it was you who said that the people would go insane if they started thinking about Tarmon Gai'don. That possibility never even crossed my mind.

 

All I was saying was that thinking everything will go back to the way it was before is, frankly, very naive. The world will have to be rebuilt. Nations and institutions established, learning from the mistakes of ages past. It's called evolution, not insanity.

 

Additionally, Darth Krewl, your interpretation of the world after TG is amusing to say the least but at odds with the materials presented. Aviendha's visions seem to indicate that both Andor and Seanchan will remain after TG. The Breaking does not have to happen the same way as the end of the Second Age. In fact, the "Breaking of the world" by the Dragon Reborn may actually be an acceleration of technology, changing the face of Randland with widespread use of gunpowder and projectile weapons. He has set up schooled and the Dragons are built. Assuming that the whole world goes poof is crazy.

 

Actually, the amusing thing here is your interpretation of my words, Alternate. 'cause you seem to have missed my point altogether. IMO, Aviendha's visions are not etched in stone. They could be anything ranging from a warning of potential futures to a mere projection of her own, innermost fears.

 

Now, Rand's schools. Bingo! Why do you think he set them up? Well, precisely so that what little knowledge, science, techhnology and information in general existing in the Randland of the Third Age can be preserved after Tarmon Gai'don. And thas 'cause the world at large could very well be thrown into a Dark Age, after the Last Battle. And this is exactly what I was saying. I never said that the whole world will go "Poof". And frankly, if that's all you got from my words, that makes me very sad for you, indeed.