Ring of Tamyrlin still exists ? (spoilers)

[OneDragon]

Lanfear told Rand that there was only 2 sa'angreal for men stronger then callandor, and only one she knew still existed (choedan kal). The other I assume is the Ring of Tamyrlin.

 

In veins of gold, rand thought: "Only two times before had he held this much power, once when he cleansed saidin, and once... when he created this mountain." 

 

Does this indicate he must have used Ring of Tamyrlin when he created dragonmount? and that is why Lanfear thought it didnt exist anymore.

 

Problem here is: a Sa'angreal prevents you from draining too much of the power, which is the supposed way he created the mountain.

 

My hopes are that it wasnt destroyed, but that Rand will find it on top of dragonmount first chapter ToM

 

Any thoughts / criticism?

[Aquarius]

I was under the impression that LTT was undaided and channeled so much more than he was able unaided that he got the Dreagonmount-creating lightning bolt.

 

Interresting, though :)

[Luckers]

Lews Therin was unaided when he killed himself. sa'angreal contain buffers which stop you drawing too much, the exception being Callandor which was flawed due to the poor manufacturing standards resulting from wide-scale destruction in the War of the Shadow.

 

The Ring of Tamyrlin almost certainly was not an angreal or sa'angreal. Such are gender specific, and the First Amongst Servants could be male or female. It would be exceedingly wierd for the Aes Sedai to choose a male sa'angreal as a symbol for an office which women can hold.

[rcfleming4]

I was under the impression that LTT was undaided and channeled so much more than he was able unaided that he got the Dreagonmount-creating lightning bolt.

 

Interresting, though :)

 

My only issue with him doing it unaided is that means even an average strength individual could make a huge explosion if they didn't care about surviving.

 

Not that this would happen, but an Asha'man could Travel to the White Tower and completely level it.

 

Unless of course RJ simply changed his mind as it's said he meant for this to be a trilogy.

[Mhoram]

I'm not sure that this other sa'angreal, whatever it is, will turn up, or actually be useful for Rand.  It's Callandor that he's going to wield at the Last Battle.  If it's just so he can have something powerful, the CK was the greatest sa'angreal ever, and as he resolved at the end of TGS, that wasn't the answer.  What was the point of him destroying the CK if he immediately destroys it with the Ring of Tamyrlin or whatever? Unless such an artifact does something besides make you stronger.  

 

Do we even know that LTT was wearing the Ring?  Or if it was a male san'angreal?  If he was, and it was so powerful as to be the other sa'angreal that Lanfear mentioned, why did he bother with Callandor?

[Luckers]

I was under the impression that LTT was undaided and channeled so much more than he was able unaided that he got the Dreagonmount-creating lightning bolt.

 

Interresting, though :)

 

My only issue with him doing it unaided is that means even an average strength individual could make a huge explosion if they didn't care about surviving.

 

Not that this would happen, but an Asha'man could Travel to the White Tower and completely level it.

 

Unless of course RJ simply changed his mind as it's said he meant for this to be a trilogy.

 

Yes, they could. That's why you gotta be careful about pissing channelers off--Ellisande, for instance.

 

Do we even know that LTT was wearing the Ring?  Or if it was a male san'angreal?  If he was, and it was so powerful as to be the other sa'angreal that Lanfear mentioned, why did he bother with Callandor?

 

Read my post on the first two questions, as for the last--there is nothing to suggest Lews Therin ever had anything to do with Callandor.

[Mhoram]

My only issue with him doing it unaided is that means even an average strength individual could make a huge explosion if they didn't care about surviving.

 

Not that this would happen, but an Asha'man could Travel to the White Tower and completely level it.

 

Unless of course RJ simply changed his mind as it's said he meant for this to be a trilogy.

 

Well LTT was the strongest individual channeller in the world wasn't he?  Like Rand?  So such a feat would probably be well beyond the vast majority of channellers.  Also, didn't LTT do more than simply draw as much power as he could?  I thought he actually did something - will have to draw out EoTW and check.

 

Finally, not to forget that the crazed male Aes Sedai did completely change the face of the world, so it does seem likely, admittedly probably with the aid of sa-, ter-, and angreals in many cases, that reshaping large chunks of landscape is perfectly possible for the average channeller if they know what they're doing.

[Mhoram]

Read my post on the first two questions, as for the last--there is nothing to suggest Lews Therin ever had anything to do with Callandor.

 

Oh, I know he was unaided when he killed himself, but that's not the same as having nothing to do with Callandor.  I thought it was explicitly stated in the text that Callandor was the sword of the Dragon, used by LTT in the War of Power.

[Aquarius]

It's probably a topic that could have (and surely already has) its own thread, but if the CK is not the right solution I can't see Callandor beeing it. Be it used by a woman directing the flows or by Rand without the buffer.

I would find it very anticlimatic if anyone save Rand weaves the flows required to seal the DO (if any).

[Yorkie]

I don't think LTT was wearing the ring when he did his landscape gardening. If he was you would have thought Ishy would be drooling over it in the prologue, and this is not the case.

[yoniy0]

sa'angreal contain buffers which stop you drawing too much, the exception being Callandor which was flawed due to the poor manufacturing standards resulting from wide-scale destruction in the War of the Shadow.

We were told that, but look at the following:

He closed his eyes, drawing in more and more power, feeling as he had only twice before. Once when he had cleansed saidin. Once when he had created this mountain.

Then he drew in more.

He knew that much power would destroy him. He had stopped caring.

Why would that much power destroy him? Or rather, how? Furthermore, do we know for certain that LTT burned himself out the moment he died? All we do know, if I'm not mistaken, is that he drew enough of the Power as to summon a bolt of energy from the heavens:

He drew on the True Source deeply, and still more deeply, like a man dying of thirst. Quickly he had drawn more of the One Power than he could channel unaided; his skin felt as if it were aflame. Straining, he forced himself to draw more, tried to draw it all.

"Light, forgive me! Ilyena!"

The air turned to fire, the fire to light liquefied. The bolt that struck from the heavens would have seared and blinded any eye that glimpsed it, even for an instant. From the heavens it came, blazed through Lews Therin Telamon, bored into the bowels of the earth.

Now look at what happens when Rand holds all that power:

The winds began to whip at him, spinning, enormous clouds above twisting upon themselves, like ancient leviathans passing in the profoud black deep.

[...]

Lightning cracked above, thunder buffeting him. Rand closed his eyes, perched above a drop that plummeted thousands of feet downward, in the middle of a tempest of icy wind.

Could that have been the beginning of something similar to what happened to LTT?

 

I thought it was explicitly stated in the text that Callandor was the sword of the Dragon, used by LTT in the War of Power.

Nope.

[Mhoram]

I thought in retrospect that the "liquid light" was a massive chunk of balefire that LTT somehow tried to direct at the world, and that the volcano was created by the resulting hole in the world's crust.  There are some problems, such as why did the balefire, if that's what it was, come from the Heavens, rather than from LTT himself as all other balefire we've seen did, and can you actually balefire himself?  I do think he didn't just keep drawing more power in - he released it when he shouted 'forgive me Ilyena'.  From what LTT said to Rand in Veins of Gold, he wanted to destroy the world.

[yoniy0]

LTT wanted escape. He wanted to destroy himself, not the world. That's why Rand said LTT didn't go far enough.

And RJ said it wasn't Balefire.

[Mhoram]

drat, will have to read through his blog at some stage. 

[Luckers]

Well LTT was the strongest individual channeller in the world wasn't he?

 

Nope. Elan Morin Tedronai equaled him--and, frankly, given there were millions of channelers in the Age of Legends, I doubt he was the only one. In fact, given Logain and Taim of the thousand manifest male channelers in the modern world come so close, I'd say it's certain Tedronai and Therin were the only male channelers of that strength.

 

Like Rand?

 

Again, no--though the rival is the still Tedronai.

 

So such a feat would probably be well beyond the vast majority of channellers.

 

Nope. Lews Therin is the strongest a man can be, but he had no where near the strength to do what he did. He exceeded his strength to do what was done, and that killed him. Others could do the same, if they so chose.

 

Finally, not to forget that the crazed male Aes Sedai did completely change the face of the world, so it does seem likely, admittedly probably with the aid of sa-, ter-, and angreals in many cases, that reshaping large chunks of landscape is perfectly possible for the average channeller if they know what they're doing.

 

Entirely possible. Though I suspect you're looking at it in the wrong way--there would have been millions of mad channelers, each making their own little dent on the planet, and as a result the entirety was changed beyond recognition. Events like Lews Therin's stunt were probably limited--we know most of the men lingered for many years (indeed many died of the rotting disease caused by the Taint, not extravegences of madness), and causing destruction on the level of Lews Therin's suicide would kill any man who can channel. They did small things, but the numbers resulted in a cataclysm.

 

There are exceptions of course. Jaric Mondaren almost certainly had a sa'angreal, to survive the destruction of Tzora.

 

Oh, I know he was unaided when he killed himself, but that's not the same as having nothing to do with Callandor.  I thought it was explicitly stated in the text that Callandor was the sword of the Dragon, used by LTT in the War of Power.

 

Firstly, the statement that he was unaided when he killed himself had nothing to do with my comment about Callandor. Secondly, no, there is absolutely no indication he had any involvement with it. Indeed it is highly unlikely someone holding the position of the First Amongst Servants would use a fundementally flawed sa'angreal, one which due to its lack of a buffer could easily kill him.

 

Callandor has specific significance to Rand, relating to how he will have to use it, due to prophecy.

 

It's probably a topic that could have (and surely already has) its own thread, but if the CK is not the right solution I can't see Callandor beeing it. Be it used by a woman directing the flows or by Rand without the buffer.

I would find it very anticlimatic if anyone save Rand weaves the flows required to seal the DO (if any).

 

Have you considered that is not the 'strength' element of a sa'angreal that is important. Clearly, if mere strength were the answer the Choedan Kal would have served. Yet, despite that, prophecy seems quite clear in suggesting that it is not the function of Callandor (in providing strength) that is what Rand needs, but rather it is the limitations of Callandor that prophecy shows Rand needs in order to succeed.

 

Why would that much power destroy him? Or rather, how?

 

It was a psychological battle he was fighting there. That was the reason he destroyed the Choedan Kal--to have access to that power, to be a god in that manner--it would indeed have destroyed him. Not physically, but personally. He gained victory, at the last, but turning his back on that power.

 

Furthermore, do we know for certain that LTT burned himself out the moment he died? All we do know, if I'm not mistaken, is that he drew enough of the Power as to summon a bolt of energy from the heavens:

 

He did not channel. His POV is clear on this. He drew, felt it destroying him, and drew more. Then a bolt of fire destroyed him. This is much the same as what occurred to Aginor, though on a much larger scale.

 

By the way, no we don't know if he burned himself out. He either did, or was on the brink of when he died. I don't see it being relevent.

 

 

[Aquarius]

It's probably a topic that could have (and surely already has) its own thread, but if the CK is not the right solution I can't see Callandor beeing it. Be it used by a woman directing the flows or by Rand without the buffer.

I would find it very anticlimatic if anyone save Rand weaves the flows required to seal the DO (if any).

 

Have you considered that is not the 'strength' element of a sa'angreal that is important. Clearly, if mere strength were the answer the Choedan Kal would have served. Yet, despite that, prophecy seems quite clear in suggesting that it is not the function of Callandor (in providing strength) that is what Rand needs, but rather it is the limitations of Callandor that prophecy shows Rand needs in order to succeed.

I have considered that, yes, but until I RAFO, I'll try to keep an open mind about those things. For the time being, I consider Callandor to be used in the actual military battle (if any).

 

On a side note : I dearly home TG starts unexpectedly, while all pieces of the chessboards are totally **not** in the right place, for both sides.

[bronnt]

Have you considered that is not the 'strength' element of a sa'angreal that is important. Clearly, if mere strength were the answer the Choedan Kal would have served. Yet, despite that, prophecy seems quite clear in suggesting that it is not the function of Callandor (in providing strength) that is what Rand needs, but rather it is the limitations of Callandor that prophecy shows Rand needs in order to succeed.

 

Well, I think it's entirely possible that the Choedan Kal actually would have served, but it was necessary for Rand's sanity to destroy it.  In essence, that he had to have his epiphany on the mountain top, and then to decide to turn away from that path of strictly power, and to destroy the source of it.  Which means he still needs the strength aspect of Callandor, and the only way he can safely use it now is with two women aiding him.

 

The CK itself helped to play a part in driving Rand to the brink, getting him nearly drunk with the power and the applications he could put it to.  Destroying it might have an integral part of his fate.

[yoniy0]

Furthermore, do we know for certain that LTT burned himself out the moment he died? All we do know, if I'm not mistaken, is that he drew enough of the Power as to summon a bolt of energy from the heavens:

He did not channel. His POV is clear on this. He drew, felt it destroying him, and drew more. Then a bolt of fire destroyed him. This is much the same as what occurred to Aginor, though on a much larger scale.

 

By the way, no we don't know if he burned himself out. He either did, or was on the brink of when he died. I don't see it being relevent.

You mistake me. I did not mean to say he made the bolt of energy, just that the very air reacted to the amount of the Power he was holding. I tried to demonstrate that Rand's surroundings reacted in a similar way. Hence suggesting that LTT's death might not have been caused by him drawing too deeply unaided, but simply by the amount of the Power he was holding.

[scion9]

Given Elayne's accidental 'superweapon' that came from her unraveled gateway; any channeler even strong enough to open a gateway could theoretically be dropping tactical nuke weaves if they had the know how.  Of course no one does, currently.  No need to overchannel, or use sa'angreal in the process either.

[Shryke]

forgive me if my memory is lacking, but isn't Callandor seen in Rand's trip through his past lives in Rhuidean?

 

i vaguely recall some Aes Sedai talking to the Green Man and giving him a seal to look after, and there's some mention of a crystal sword in the background too

[MikeRiley]

If something of Callandor's importance was left with flaws, it was for a reason. The sa'angreal was made powerful because its power would come in handy, but I believe it was believed the Dragon Reborn would have to link with a woman in order to do what needs to be done. It would not be power that was required, it's unlikely he'll be channeling at the Dark One who is not of the pattern and cannot be effected by anything of it.

 

If Callandor is seen in Rand's trip through his past lives, it shouldn't matter much since he is not a direct descendant of Lews Therin. He is Lews Therin reborn, not to be confused with I'm My Own Grandpa.

[Durinax]

If something of Callandor's importance was left with flaws, it was for a reason. The sa'angreal was made powerful because its power would come in handy, but I believe it was believed the Dragon Reborn would have to link with a woman in order to do what needs to be done. It would not be power that was required, it's unlikely he'll be channeling at the Dark One who is not of the pattern and cannot be effected by anything of it.

 

If Callandor is seen in Rand's trip through his past lives, it shouldn't matter much since he is not a direct descendant of Lews Therin. He is Lews Therin reborn, not to be confused with I'm My Own Grandpa.

or was callandor purposefully flawed so that saiden had to be channelled through a saidar conduit similar to what rand did at the cleansing?

[StefanR]

Callandor wasn't supposed to have a flaw, RJ has said that it was not meant to be that way and that it was some random thing.

[Vassili]

Lews Therin was able to accomplish something as big as making Dragonmount because he was wielding far more of the Power than anyone ever could wield unaided and live. The key word being "live". So yes, a suicidal Asha'man could destroy all of Tar Valon- if he was willing to die doing it. The last Queen of Manatherin did something similar, and she leveled her capital.

 

I don't believe that this will be the case because I don't think Rand is going to die, but for a moment imagine what Rand could accomplish with Callandor if he was willing to die doing it. Before he died, he could draw more of the OP than even the CK could deliver. Whether he could do anything meaningful with that power before he died is another story...

 

Still, Callandor, unlike the CK, leaves the wielder with the ability to "sheathe the sword" so to speak.

[Shadow Rider]

It's probably a topic that could have (and surely already has) its own thread, but if the CK is not the right solution I can't see Callandor beeing it. Be it used by a woman directing the flows or by Rand without the buffer.

I would find it very anticlimatic if anyone save Rand weaves the flows required to seal the DO (if any).

 

But it must be a woman controlling the weave, this is the flaw Cadsuane spoke of.....

Rand must link with 2 woman and one of the woman controls the weave, that's how Callandor must be used.