Ring of Tamyrlin still exists ? (spoilers)

[argh crash]

theres only one way to solve this. . .

 

FIGHT!

:P

 

[Telamon7]

This makes me wonder if the buffer is there to prevent a channeler from accidentally drawing too much of the power or if it prevents the possibility altogether. Do we know for certain that the buffer prevents someone trying to kill themselves by drawing too much of the power from doing just that?

 

 

TGS

"He closed his eyes, drawing in more and more power, feeling as he had only twice before. Once when he had cleansed saidin. Once when he had created this mountain.

Then he drew in more.

He knew that much power would destroy him. He had stopped caring"

 

 

Is that mentioned to show that Rand knows having access to the CK and through it such vast power would eventually destroy him or is it showing that he is nearing the point of destroying himself by channeling beyond his limit? I would think the former is most likely, given as how the statement is worded. It doesn't say "drawing this much power would destroy him" or "much more of the power would destroy him", not to mention "power" is not capitalized, so it seems I answer my own question, but I thought I would share my musings.

[Sharaman]

To reiterate, its uncertain if he was burned out--certainly he was on the point of being so, due to his drawing too much--but whether he burned himself out before he died or whether he died a split second before he burned himself out remains unknown.

 

Irrelevant to the plot. If the Dragon's soul had been transmigrated, ala Cyndane/ Arangar/ etc., a burnout would have carried through into the next body.  However, we've been explicitly told that it wouldn't make a difference in the next normal rebirth.

 

(MAFO #7 - If you were burned out and then transmigrated, would you still be burned out? [[brandon] answered that [he] was pretty sure that it was a yes, but that we should feel free to MAFO].

 

Maria's Answer # 7 - Yes, you would.  Jim said that “neither burning out or stilling affects that except in this lifetime, your current lifetime.” (DragonCon), but transmigration is not really a different lifetime; more than just the soul moves.  The new person (I’m at a loss for words here) also has the memories of the previous person, and its personality, and such.  So Brandon is correct.)

[Luckers]

You do realise I gathered those MAFO's, right? *shakes head*. That rebirth fixes burning out has been known for years, Sharaman. We were discussing the issues of drawing too much power, not the problems that might cause in the next incarnation. And whilst this may be irrelevant to the plot--who says we were discussing plot? Metaphysics and worldbuilding are interesting subjects.

 

Who's to say that the female CK melted solely from overuse?

 

It did not, in fact, melt from overuse. It melted from misuse and strain. Akkarin states that far more saidin was used in the Cleansing than Saidar, yet it was the female Choedan Kal that melted. This resulted because of the role saidar played--it was the the constrictor, the hands that wrang the taint out of saidin. Saidar was what provided the strain, and placed the presure. It was this strain which overtaxed the female Choedan Kal, and melted it.

[Hadilmir]

It did not, in fact, melt from overuse. It melted from misuse and strain. Akkarin states that far more saidin was used in the Cleansing than Saidar, yet it was the female Choedan Kal that melted. This resulted because of the role saidar played--it was the the constrictor, the hands that wrang the taint out of saidin. Saidar was what provided the strain, and placed the presure. It was this strain which overtaxed the female Choedan Kal, and melted it.

Alright, so perhaps I failed English some time long ago or does that description not easily fit in to the category "Overuse"?  :-\

[a5m]

t did not, in fact, melt from overuse. It melted from misuse and strain. Akkarin states that far more saidin was used in the Cleansing than Saidar, yet it was the female Choedan Kal that melted. This resulted because of the role saidar played--it was the the constrictor, the hands that wrang the taint out of saidin. Saidar was what provided the strain, and placed the presure. It was this strain which overtaxed the female Choedan Kal, and melted it.

 

I would have said it melted from the amount of use while being buried. The male Choedan Kal was no longer buried and was open to the air though it was still in a pit.

[Luckers]

Overuse would be exceeding the nature of its use. A sa'angreal is a power booster--I's use, it's purpose, is to draw power, and subsequently overuse would be to exceed its capacities of strength in a way that led to its destruction. Plausibly Moghedian's comment, of her surprise that the Choedan Kal had survived heavy use over such duration might have put the melting in the realms of overuse--duration, not function, being the problem. However given the male Choedan Kal survived heavier use over the same duration we know that not to be the case.

 

It was misuse--the nature of what was done with the power it drew, not the simple nature of drawing that power--that led to its destruction.

 

 

[Hadilmir]

It was misuse--the nature of what was done with the power it drew, not the simple nature of drawing that power--that led to its destruction.

Alright, that summed everything up nicely. Still, I will use this to point out that the buffers are obviously flawed in certain, if often irrelevant, ways if this is possible.

[Sharaman]

You do realise I gathered those MAFO's, right? *shakes head*.

 

You mean you not only gathered them thar quotes, you actually read them? :0

Some others in the discussion at that point apparently hadn't.

 

[lordofsoup]

You do realise I gathered those MAFO's, right? *shakes head*.

 

You mean you not only gathered them thar quotes, you actually read them? :0

Some others in the discussion at that point apparently hadn't.

 

 

oh snap u just got called out son!

[wipe]

At this point, Rand is channelling through the Choedan Kal with the access key (NOT Callandor), so he's certainly not unaided. He used the CK to cleanse saidin. When (as LTT) he crated Dragonmount, he wasn't using an s/t'a - unless he was wearing the Ring, and we don't know much about that.

 

As for the weightlifting point, there is such a thing as 'hysterical strength' where a person can indeed exceed their normal physical limitations in a situation in which their life, or the life of a child or a loved one, is endangered:

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hysterical_strength

 

Physical injury is likely to result, as what seems to be happening is that the physiological mechanisms which prevent damage are temporarily suspended.

 

 

 

I referred to hysterical strength as well. but that would not multiply your strength a hundred fold. maybe sup to ten times for a short burst of tiime, but not to the level that you could with an sa'angreal.

[wipe]

Sorry, just to stupid. Deleted it.

[wipe]

The problem with the wording is that Rand likens the creation of Dragonmount to the cleansing, which implies that it took about the same amount of power. That again implies that Rand can equal the CK unaided for a short burst. I just don't see that that fits with what's been said about angreals/sa'angreals. We do know that LTT had the ring of Tamyrlin (probably wearing it at tyime of death because you usually wear a ring). It is further likely that a ring of such importanse was a type of angreal (like bowl of winds; that could be used by both genders).

 

I don't find it unlikely that he was using a angreal of some sort when he created the mountain, but that would imply that it was without a buffer; which I find unlikely- and hence I'm in the camp that think he did it unaided. BUT:

Probably he did it unaided (many examples of mad men tearing up the world, so not unlikely that the most powerful of them could make a mountain). My PROBLEM is Rand likening the power of the cleansing with the power needed to make Dragonmount- it just don't sit right. The cleansing was enough power to destroy the world, that is quite a bit bigger than making a mountain (remember they actually taxed the CKs to their maximum at that time- Nynaeve's melted (if other theories on the bord is not right, and the female one had faults)). I just think it is a writers error, if it's not- it might have a huge influence on the rest of the story. Imagening the dark aes sedai attacking in suicide bomber mode witrh this tactic  ;)

[Luckers]

You do realise I gathered those MAFO's, right? *shakes head*.

 

You mean you not only gathered them thar quotes, you actually read them? :0

Some others in the discussion at that point apparently hadn't.

 

 

Why'd you quote me, then? In point of fact, I just went through the thread, and I found no one suggesting burning out meant you couldn't channel when you were reborn, or even raising the issue of the effects of burning out on rebirth--not even as a side-line point.

 

Have I missed something? Please provide the quotation, if so.

 

Yes but not to the level of a sa'angreal.

 

I don't see why not. Exceeding ones strength can be done, and there are no statements suggesting limitations.

 

Luckers, since I have a different oppinion than you I must be wrong.

 

Not necessarily.

 

Your hose axample is completely of the mark. If water pushes it way through a water hose at to high pressure it would burst , as you say. It would then continue to flow, as you say, but at a pressure that is very much lower (would not do any other damage than flooding if it dosn't drain away).

 

That's precisely what I'd say occurred. You seem to think you've made a point here, but you do realise floods can cause terrible damage, and that's just water floods. A One Power flood might create mountains or destroy cities. But remember your own words, for what comes next.

 

The example with elisande is better but I still claim that she didn't use as much power as you can with the CK (you can level the world)- she just arradicates the invading army.

 

Oh, I agree with that. She exceeded her strength, and it killed her and destroyed Manetheren--Lews Theren though...Rand likens the two, though he may be wrong (he likens the True Power he drew to the Cleansing also, and we know that's wrong). What is clear is that once you exceed your strength you don't have long to continue drawing strength before that strength kills you. If you strive desperately to do so you can clearly draw a considerable amount--Vora's sa'angreal is stated to be able to level city walls, and Eldrene destroyed Manetheren, so you can clearly get into the range of sa'angreal strength--but Choedan Kal level strength? Perhaps.

 

The problem with the wording is that Rand likens the creation of Dragonmount to the cleansing, which implies that it took about the same amount of power. That again implies that Rand can equal the CK unaided for a short burst. I just don't see that that fits with what's been said about angreals/sa'angreals. We do know that LTT had the ring of Tamyrlin (probably wearing it at tyime of death because you usually wear a ring). It is further likely that a ring of such importanse was a type of angreal (like bowl of winds; that could be used by both genders).

 

Firstly, what statements about sa'angreal do you think opposes the concept of someone unaided drawing such strength.

 

Secondly, on LTT wearing the ring at his death--Ishamael says to Lews Therin when telling him of how far he had fallen that: 'Once you wore the Ring of Tamyrlin.' That implies that he did not currently have it with him. Once he did, but no longer.

 

Thirdly, ter'angreal use the power, as such they may use both saidin and saidar, much as a circle may in attempting to achieve a weave. Saidin and saidar used together for a purpose. Angreal and sa'angreal however do not use the power, they boost (or provide resevoirs) for channelers. They cannot use both saidin and saidar--they do not come in duel gender allignments. Male or female, not both.  

 

And, as a side point, the Bowl of the Winds was not an important ter'angreal in the Age of Legends--it was one of hundreds used together to control the weather. The significance given to it was assigned by the Atha'an Miere, and only because it was the only one they had. This is quite similar to how the Aes Sedai assign a single binder significance in the Oath Rod.

 

My PROBLEM is Rand likening the power of the cleansing with the power needed to make Dragonmount- it just don't sit right. The cleansing was enough power to destroy the world, that is quite a bit bigger than making a mountain (remember they actually taxed the CKs to their maximum at that time- Nynaeve's melted).

 

If Rand was correct--which I'm not sold on yet--you answered this question above when you addressed my hose analogy. Lost pressure. Oh, of course, I suspect its more complex than that--the fact that the 'hose' is a living person means that even as they're bursting apart at the seams they have more influence on the 'flood' than a garden hose, and, by the same mark, that they are aware they are dying no doubt limits their ability to enact that influence, resulting in no elaborate weavings, but also some... cohesion... to the 'flood'. Or, put another way, a sentient person even whilst bursting has more control than a garden hose, if not the sort of ability someone using a sa'angreal (read: someone not dying a fiery death) might achieve with access to similar power.

 

 

Incidentally wipe, just for forum statistic information, if you have something more to add don't double post, modify your original post. It's not a huge issue, or anything, we just like to be able to keep track of post counts and the like.

[wipe]

I stand corrected :)

 

I follow all of your arguments, I just don't like the concept. I can't say that it is stated anywhere that a person that does not care can't channel the same amount of saidin/saidar as you can through the CK, I just find it unlikely.

 

About the flood comment, what I meant was that it would work with a gardenhose, but if a person channeling burst(died/burned out) he/she/the body just would not be able to be a conduit for the power anymore- so it wouldn't flood out into the world. When you hit max and die/burn out the power stops. What damage you have done would be extencive, but no one (not even the mad male channelers) managed to destroy the world all by him self (as you could with the CK). So I think Rand is wrong in his evaluation of the three incidents.

 

But of course I could be wrong. Sorry for the double postings. As an inxperienced user I have two proposals- make it possible to delete your own posts (within a sertain time frame?) and in the "message window" it would be easier if the view was of what you are writing; not of what you have quoted (in the long posts- it keeps jumping up)

[Druugan]

I think it may be interesting if the ring still exists and is found... but I'd be fine if we never hear of it again.  I recall that I never gave it any thought on my first read, but on re-read I thought it was pretty neat.  He wore the Ring of Tamyrlin and sat on the High Seat.  I liked that it showed a little connection from the AoL AS to the Third Age AS... having the Ring of Tamyrlin and the High Seat becoming the Amyrlin Seat.  It really doesn't need any other purpose in my opinion.

 

However, if it turned out to be some awe-inspiring ter-angreal or similar item of power that Rand gets and uses for some awesome purpose... I'm sure I'd enjoy that just as well.

[Durinax]

what is the tamyrlin ring anyways, is it a angreal or sa angreal that is tuned to both sexes? or a terangreal

[bronnt]

what is the tamyrlin ring anyways, is it a angreal or sa angreal that is tuned to both sexes? or a terangreal

 

I don't think anyone knows exactly what it is.  I just recently learned this much from an entry at the encyclopaedia.

 

3. According the expanded glossary in "To the Blight", the Ring of Tamyrlin was an object of the One Power  created by the first person who learned to channel.

That's in the footnotes to the "Eye of the World" prologue section.  I'd never before even seen that match, and I don't know many people here who have the expanded edition of EotW, so it's not a commonly known entry.

 

That's the extent of my knowledge.

[FarShainMael]

See:

 

http://linuxmafia.com/jordan/2_nondark/2.4_yore/2.4.06_tamyrlin.html

 

Alternatively, someone could ask Tam(yrlin) Al'Thor, I suppose..  :D

 

[NetSlider]

Read my post on the first two questions, as for the last--there is nothing to suggest Lews Therin ever had anything to do with Callandor.

 

Oh, I know he was unaided when he killed himself, but that's not the same as having nothing to do with Callandor.  I thought it was explicitly stated in the text that Callandor was the sword of the Dragon, used by LTT in the War of Power.

actually the only reference that llt used calandor that know is in the opening sceneof wot game. I've brought this before and if u ask me I think he did use it