On 12/24/2021 at 9:45 AM, DigificWriter said:

Even though I find the vehemence of this negativity amusing, it also says some really unflattering things about the people engaging in it, especially when said people start to imply that anyone who doesn't share the negativity - even amongst hardcore book readers - is 'the other' and that people can't possibly genuinely enjoy the series without being 'shills'.

As opposed to the ardent defenders of everything Rafe and company do, calling those who feel differently "Whitecloaks" and "Darkfriends".  Let's be fair about both sides acting like silly children. 

I enjoyed the Rand/Moraine arc most although I wasn't enthralled by how little action happened in a supposedly dangerous and deadly Blight.  The Man was superb and I enjoyed how they worked out a different arc than in Eye of the World book. 

I didn't like that Lan and Perrin literally did nothing but mope(Perrin) and walk casually(Lan) through a a a Blight that again,  is surprisingly peaceful for a reputed deadly place.  If l remember correctly, Lan hasn't fought a single trolloc or fade since episode 1 ! Please please someone tell me I'm wrong.

I didn't like the whole battle sequence. Better would have been to send reinforcements to the wall and have the 5 semi-sister ladies on top of the wall throwing fireballs/lightning.  Then a planned retreat to the horses being held on the "safe" side of the fortress and have a magnificent charge to defeat the remaining trollocs/fades. 

The wholesale changes to how Aes Sedai work was weird to me. As others have pointed out, 1 semi Accepted who couldn't pass the final Aes Sedai tests, 2 wilders and Nyneave/Egwene,  were able to crush all those T/F but 7 fully fledged sisters could barely defeat a raggly bunch of  Logain's scraggly soldiers. Just makes no sense to me. 

Why was the Horn sitting under Algemars chair ? Surely there are safer locations that are better guarded. 

Why seemingly kill Uno, a great character from the books, kill Ingtar and thus his amazing redemption arc in book 2 , and most infuriating seemingly killing Loial ! Yes, I know Judkins says he's alive but why even show it. Have Loial and Perrin actually do something heroic for a change!

The writing this season has been lackluster in my opinion and you can't blame that entirely on Covid. Far too many attempts to super-power the ladies, and too long with the Steppin arc. They need to have 10 episodes in future seasons with the premiere and finale eps at least 1 hr 30 min. 

There I'm done. Sorry if there were more negatives but I had such high hopes for ep 8 and I felt let down. I need to temper my expectations. 

23 hours ago, Skipp said:

The multiple fades in a quick cut look awesome.  It does seem they will give the killing of the Trolloc army, partially or entirely, to Egwene and Nynaeve and any other channelers they find.  Not a change I mind depending on what they do with Rand at the Eye. 

 

Having Rand teleport to the Gap and then talk with the Creator(?) was always a bit confusing.

Especially so as the writers have been very careful to avoid any detailed mention of a "Creator" thus far. 

That is reinforced  when Moraiane talks about the Wheel not "wanting anything" .  Even Jordan avoided the

whole divine being thing for the most part. 

21 hours ago, Skipp said:

 

Come to think of it the show runners introduced the idea that the Aes Sedai take the 3 oaths because of Hawkwing.  I wonder if that will be a plot going forward with the... you know.

What episode was Hawkwing mentioned ? I totally missed that.

22 hours ago, Deviations said:

No they are not angry people (thanks for the insult).  As a general state, I'm not angry either.  Abomination is perfect language for an on-line forum discussing a tv show.

 

Abomination - "a thing that causes disgust or hatred".  I think disgust fits.  I'm disgusted that they turned EF into a bawdy, dark town vs a town with resilient mostly upstanding folks recently come through a hard winter.  I'm disgusted that they turned Mat from  light hearted trickster into god knows what.  I'm disgusted that they took away the light hearted war of the sexes.  I'm disgusted that they took away the "I don't know about women, but I think Rand does, or maybe Perrin".  I'm disgusted that they turned Abel Cauthen into a drunk womanizer.  I could go on.

 

I'm sad about how they changed Lan and Nynaeve's courtship.  I loved it in the books and I wanted to see it played out on screen.  I could go on but as I've said before, we're all in our trenches.

It's okay to express a contrary opinion, it's okay to disagree as to the quality of the show vs book. The truth is some will love it, some will hate it, others will be ambivalent. The arguing back and forth, the tit for tat back and forth isn't helpful at all. Let's try and tone things down a bit. Just my individual opinion. 

2 hours ago, Whittle said:

What’s up with all the chest tattoos? First Suian and now Min. Not attractive in my opinion. 

Prepare to  be attacked for your judgmental opinion. ?

5 hours ago, Maximillion said:

Just to expand on a point made in Fal Dara. 
Similar to much of the show, even Tar Valon, it feels like a sense of scale is really missing from the cities. 

I suppose we all see things differently when we read the books, but there seemed to me enough going on at Fal Dara in the books to give the city a sense of large scale where Rand could hide. In the TV show I didn’t get that feeling at all. Where are all the people? 

Tar Valon was the same… looked big in the cityscape but then the procession to show Logan has just a few people… again nothing like the throngs of people from the books.

 

 Same with Logains ‘army’ 

 

 Scale generally feels small.

 

 Only one episode left.  I suspect the battle scene at the end of TEOTW is going to be cut because I just don’t see how they can set it up and give it any scale in one episode. Unless they just rush it.

 

So they are supposed to hire 5k extras ? lol They def. need bigger budget though, esp. once LB comes along.

6 hours ago, ForsakenPotato said:

I felt somewhat mixed on the episode, but at the same time when the credits rolled I still thought "wait, it can't be over already??!!" so I supposed I still enjoyed myself thoroughly, and will definitely re-watch this week ?.

 

I still think the dialogue could be improved and feel more natural in a lot of scenes...personally I can overlook CGI issues because most effects will look outdated in a decade anyway, but good dialogue is forever. I also wasn't a huge fan of the black wind, reminded me of the flying keys from the first HP movie...although I'm glad we saw it at all, because I sort of thought it might get ditched in favor of more trollocs, and I can't think of how it should have been made better so I'm not really in a position to complain. They also really seem to be pushing the "Mat could become a darkfriend" angle which I don't like, although I don't think he actually will...I could just do with less speeches about "the darkness inside him". He just has a bad attitude, don't make it sound glamorous or he'll only become even more emo.

 

But but but there were lots of things I loved too. Min!!! She was great - we've only gotten 2 scenes and I already like her at least as much as in the books, if not more. Also thought the Rand reveal was done well and the actor pulled off "grumpy chosen one who refuses to ask his friends for support" admirably. Also loving Egwene's performance, she's so self-righteous. Like a tiny steamroller. And there were tons of small nods to things that made me so happy: Perrin's excellent vision, the trollocs defacing the signpost in the ways, the flame and void during archery, Moiraine's comment about liking Nyneave, Padan Fain loitering (and again Perrin being the one to spot him). For not getting nearly as many episodes as I think this material deserves (10 would be good, 12 would be excellent) they are fitting in more than I expected and simplifying less than I expected. Pretty stoked for the season finale!

 "the flame and void during archery,"  I didn't really see the connection watching the episode. I know contrasting the two bow shooting sessions kinda hinted at it but I was hoping for a more visual or noise action to show off the flame/void.  Kinda like the Min part where the stars/darkness fighting for control...I was hoping for a better visualization on that also. 

Thoughts please 

6 hours ago, JimGalaxy said:

*VERY* well-said. I was completely disturbed by this, because (external reference) I do not like things I cannot understand. You give a plausible explanation, given the series' portrayal of his wife, and I thank you for that. I'll go with it

I didn't like the whole love triangle thing either. I do have a thought as to why the writers put it in. 

In the books, Egwene and Perrin have such limited joint screen time developing their relationship, that I believe the writers were looking for some additional development of the two characters. They whiffed it with the love triangle thing but I hope they continue to expand N & P's relationship beyond just them surviving the post SL bit. So, writers do better next time !

On 12/13/2021 at 8:52 PM, Agitel said:

I do wonder if the DR mystery will backfire more because they teased other alternatives rather than just playing it straight.

 

I'm not predicting it will. But I wonder occasionally.

Oh believe me, there will be hordes of people complaining that the show is just another "white saviour" story. They did it with the Dune movie and they'll do it in WOT as well.  What those folks ignore is that RJ made the books far more than just a Rand story and Rafe has done the same. 

3 hours ago, notpropaganda73 said:

Like I said, a matter of taste. The costumes are one of my favourite parts of the show (consistently). However, I do think there are problems with the visuals in the show. It has been very up and down. Sometimes it looks fantastic, other times as you say, it looks low-budget. 

 

I would put this down to misuse of the budget really, where they focus on certain things at the expense of others. But we can't know for sure as we're not on the inside of decisions. 

For me it's the editing and choices of what scenes to cut or to add. That's been the most inconsistent thing to be about the production. 

On 12/10/2021 at 10:08 AM, Texas Grognard said:

IMO--

 

Cutting Caemlyn is fine.  It doesn't advance the story in book 1 really.  It doesn't get you to the Eye any faster.

 

The show needed us to know more about the Aes Sedai in season 1 than we did in book 1.  They're part of the main attraction for viewers.

 

"Pillow Friends" appeared much earlier than in the books, and that's great.  RJ couldn't have written it that way in the early 90s, but you can't not have that content now especially since its cannon.

 

I have no idea why the Ways were taken away from Loial.  Why did Moiraine need to consult him at all?

 

Matt stayed because of the recasting, I'm almost certain.

 

"5 headed dragon" and the Eye being the prison of the Dark One just seems like dialing up the unreliable narrator to 11.  I think it'll be interesting to see whether non-book fans find it intriguing or frustrating.

 

IMO--the episode was perfectly fine.  Its not the book.  This is what historians feel like every time we watch a historical film.  Its what Freddie Mercury felt like watching his own biopic. This is the reductive and abstractive nature of the medium.

 

For people decrying the fans as Book Cloaks, I'd like to explain it like this.  For a long time there has been no new content for WoT.  The Fandom has been characterized by nostalgia and needing to convert people to their cause in order to share nostalgia.  However, during the period of RJ's active writing, WoT's Fandom was just as active and divisive as any other.  There were feuds, argument, battling theories and the like. While I worry about how the newly rejuvinated Fandom will impact the acquisition of new viewers, I must simultaneously recognize that this is very much a return to the glory days.

 

Folks, we have new content to argue about, and life is good.

There was a cut scene where Loial was showing something on a map to Moriaine and Lan.

IF they had put that scene into the show, i think it would have been less confusing. Maybe only Loial knew the locations of the ways and was needed for that purpose in the show. But I do feel that they shouldn't have had Moraine be the one to open the portal. Loial should have done it as in the books. 

11 hours ago, SinisterDeath said:

I liked the Episode, if anything I was disappointed by how hyped up it was.

I'd probably rank the episodes like...

 

1st Place

Episode 4.

 

2nd Place

Episodes 6, 5, 3.

 

3rd Place

Episode 2

 

4th Place

Episode 1.

 

 

Also, I can't believe no one's said it yet.

 

We got to see boobs.

 

Seriously, we are excited about seeing boobs in a steamy sauna in low lighting ? What are we all teenage boys now ?

I've never been convinced that nudity is needed in the show.  The whole thing is a distraction imo. They could have done other scenes for other characters instead of that whole thing. How about showing Egwene and Perrin fleeing the WC and running to TV , then run into one of Moraine's eyes and ears. Done, constructive and better editing than the abrupt appearances were getting.

On 12/8/2021 at 8:21 AM, DaddyFinn said:

I guess it's clarified later. WAFO is the way ?

Perhaps it's an angreal ?

On 12/6/2021 at 5:10 PM, SinisterDeath said:

The DO has the power to intercept souls and forcibly put them into new bodies/stasis, etc.

I've never read anything in the book that suspects they have a "greek style afterlife" presided over by Hades, with the select few going to the Elysian Fields...

 

Which is also reincarnation... because not every soul reincarnated is going to have the same personality, destiny, etc.

 

I didn't say heroes were Ta'Varen. Ta'Varen are bound to the wheel. The Heroes are bound to the Horn. 

 

From the cursory WoT wiki & Interview database searches I made before before my previous post, I wasn't able to find anything that concretely said which way it worked (hence the "generally accepted by fans" that it works this way).

I believe from my crappy memory that we have characters in the books that state all souls are reborn, not just important souls.
The Interview database hasn't enlightened anything... Apparently no one bothered to ask RJ if every souls is spun out by the Wheel, not just heroes and specific souls like LTT.

But generally speaking, with systems where rebirth is true, it's universal. The only thing that isn't universal is when a specific soul is reborn with the same purpose/destiny. 

I love this discussion ! It's cerebral and a great back and forth. All those that argue and demean rather than discuss in a positive way should look to this thread and act accordingly.  

On 12/3/2021 at 9:10 AM, pyrusmole said:

I'll defend this.

Let's assume for a moment that Loial knows a bit about Two Rivers dress and cultural practices (like the braid). I know that's a big assumption but just grant it to me, okay? So he runs into Nynaeve in the Tar Valon library and it passes his mind "She's dressed like a Two Rivers person." I'm pretty sure the first thing book or show Loial is going to say is something along the lines of

"Hello there, I'm Loial son of Arent son of Haren. You have dress like a friend of mine. Are you from the Two Rivers as well? Oh you are, and you're a wisdom? So you're a healer? Fascinating. This reminds me of ... Oh yes my friend. Would you happen to know a Rand al'Thor, he's an Aielm... {Interrupted by Nynaeve}

I wish they had the scene of Loial walking around TV and meeting Nyneave in the garden. Have that scene and delete some of the Stepin arc. 

On 12/3/2021 at 9:00 AM, mogi68 said:

 

If I were the show runner heh, I would have done something more like this:

 

• Have Stepin kill himself towards the beginning of the episode, by hanging or with blade. Lan finds him and collapses to his knees, end scene.
• Moiraine and Lan after returning to the tower hear of whitecloaks near Tar Valon. Moiraine is troubled by this, and they go to check it out.
• Nynaeve comes with them because she doesn't trust Moiraine and doesn't want to be in the tower
• They find the beaten tinkers and ask what happened, learn of two whitecloak prisoners who match the description of Egwene and Perrin
• They wait until nightfall and execute the rescue much as they did in the book

Boom. It leaves room for fun whiz-bang explosions and lightning, leaves room for heroic moments from pretty much everyone (they can keep Egwene's defiance and Perrin's goldeneyes), and we still get the emotional devastation from Stepin's suicide in the beginning.

 

Perfect adaptation! THAT would have been awesome. Unfortunately, with their limited budget they can't really afford huge explosions and lightning CGI in  many instances, need to save that money for the ending episode for example. But still, I think what you described is a perfect way to handle the issues that exist in the episode as shown. 

On 11/29/2021 at 6:27 PM, Elder_Haman said:

What the bloody heck are you talking about?

Yeah, that person is confused. Logain tells Moraine about him hearing former Dragons talking to him as proof that he is the legit DR. He NEVER mentions Rand at all!  She does smirk at him though and I don't know why.

I have two questions regarding Moiraine's interaction with Logain. 

In the episode they build up how powerful he is compared to them yet in the scene between Lan and Moraine, he asked her if Logain was more powerful than Egwene and she replied, "I don't know".

The presumed list of possible DR candidates are five and they wonder if Logain might be the fifth. Nyneave being one isn't thought about at that point.  It's ONLY AFTER Nyneave's display of power that her being the DR arises.

Now to my questions.

One: What was in Logain's reply to her question about being the DR made her decide that Logain wasn't the DR ?  

Because before that conversation, she has no reason to doubt that he might be the One.

Two: Why couldn't Moraine say whether or not Egwene or Logain were stronger ?

She can tell Egwene's strength because they both are women and in the episode they spend a great deal of time saying  that it takes two full sisters to contain him. 

Thanks for anyone's help with this. I hope my query isn't too confusing. Lol

On 11/25/2021 at 8:29 PM, MasterAblar said:

This pace is much nicer in this episode. The show stops for a second to take a breath with basically none of the character moving at all. Lot of dialogue, lot of exposition but not in a put you to sleep manner.

 

Overall I really enjoyed it. Things that come to mind:

 

- They are reeeeeeeeeally investing in this Dragon Reborn mystery. Mat, Logain, Nyneave, even a shout out to Egwene for her strength. I almost want to say to show is pointing to Rand by omission ?

 

- I quite like what they've done with Logain. He's convinced he's the Dragon Reborn and that is bring out both the good in him and the bad. His madness is new but not really problematic. Strictly speaking the first pov we get from Logain is in aMoL by which time he could have been healed by Nyneave, so it's entirely possible he did have some madness in the books. His healing abilites make me wonder if Flinn's role will be taken over by him later on.

 

- Nyneave and Lan getting to know each other, how cute

 

- Logain gentled yet it's hinted in his character trailer that he could still see ta'veren. Wonder how that works out.

 

- Thank god Mat didn't kill those people. Instead I really like the symbolism of the dagger and the Shadar Logoth influence being called out by the Myrrdral's presence. Nice touch showing that they are both evil yet opposite's

 

- So uh.... Nyneave just healed everyone in the room. Which is crazy. But at the same time I'm not really that attached to the exact mechanism's of healing so alright then.

 

- Did Moiraine lead Logain's army to the camp or just take advantage of the situation? I can see it either way.

 

I will say that the channelling in the battle got a little... boring? Just ground exploding like there were landmines. Granted that was pretty much all Alanna but hopefully a bit more variety in the future.

 

Not sure how all the channelling strength comparisons exactly match up in the books. I'd have to back and read up on it a little. Don't think 2 women could actually shield Logain if he's trying to get out, but he may not have been trying then as well since he put up much more of a fight later and broke out. He's plainly stated to be extremely strong, and Nyneave's strength is also made apparent.

It's my understanding from the books that it takes 13 Aes Sedai to gentle a man. Not ever 10 in the show. ALso, where are the Tower Guard ? All they brought to take Logain was 7 Aes Sedai and their Warders.. Hardly seems sufficient to capture someone like Logain. THey never explain how he was captured do they ?

I guess we'll begin to know in 4 short days(here in USA) ?

On 11/11/2021 at 1:47 AM, Wraith235 said:

I am more and more concerned with this 
Im down to a 5 maybe a 4 after a lot of what I read over the last few days 

Souls across time -----was a big thing to Jordan  the Dragon has always been a male - and while I see a lot of the current world gender politics coming out TBH if they are dumb enough to try to change DR into Eg, or Nyn that is amount to ending themselves - that's one things the fans wont stand for , but as has been said elsewhere in this thread - why are you doing this ?

Perrin Married - ugh ok I guess since all the characters are being aged up but I agree with the mentality of what Perrin would do if that happened

Eg as a lesbian..... its a hard pill to swallow particularly when you factor in her reaction to meeting Gallad for the 1st time, as well as her relationship to Gawain(sp?)

Min as Trans - this is probably MY PERSONAL  biggest grumble .... Min was my favorite character in the books so this one is a little more personal to me- it looks like a leap to go from here to her being trans based on twitter bio but weirder things have happened

Cauthorn Ner-do wells - mmmmm dont really see the point in this 

Judkins thinking they know how Jordan would be writing in todays world, ---- this infuriates me.
The Gall one must have to assume that you know better than the creator is absurd and I REALLY am curious about Harriots opinion on the quote ""It's a very fundamental change actually to make to the book series and it has a lot of ripple effects, and we'll continue to do things like that I think are more reflective of what hopefully Robert Jordan would be Writing if he was Writing today"

this alone - if there was NOTHING ELSE would make me INCREDIBLY wary of this series, Honestly at this point why even call it "The Wheel of time" make it your own show instead of trying to piggyback off of a beloved work such as this 

RE your Egwene statement. In the trailers she and Rand appear to  have sex so she isn't lesbian, though she could be bisexual for sure, possibly romantic with Elayne. As to Galad and Gawyn..I just hope they are nixed ENTIRELY from the tv show. I never liked either one and they aren't truly necessary to the overarching plot, so if they are gone then there isn't anything wrong with Egwene being bisexual.

I have high hopes for the series. What I've seen in the trailers makes it look epic, I'll have to see the whole picture before making a judgement. I just hope the acting and writing hold up really well.

I do have one gripe that I hope i'm proved wrong about and thats the relationship between Min and Rand. 

Those two are my favorite of the three Rand ladies.  I hope they have true chemistry. 

1 hour ago, mogi68 said:

Is the Karaethon Cycle mentioned in TEOTW? I can think of a passing reference when Padan Fain brings news of Logain, but don't remember the prophecies being quoted in the first book outside of maybe the opening and closing blurb

 

Ah that's true. Thanks for your insight. 

True. Thanks for sharing your thoughts.