One note I keep seeing over and over again.  I don't see detailed critiques.   I see vague sweeps of the whole thing is bad or they ruined this or that character. 

If you want a real discussion you have to provide specifics, otherwise it's just complaint.

To Wotwasthat, if you're still here, what exactly didn't you like?  Which changes specifically bothered you?  Knowing that might let us actually talk.

Guess just depends on the culture make up you get exposed to.  Zarine or Zareen is a fairly normal name from Persian backgrounds, so you don't see it much in like an Irish or French family, but it does show up more the further east you get.  🙂

I have met an Aviendha.  To be fair I've also met an Alanna, Elayne and Zarine, but I couldn't tell you offhand if it's from the series or just that those are not uncommon names.

But in Reality it's two books.  Because the Epilogue and Prologue sections are just setting up and putting a ribbon on it.  The plot starts with Perrin knowing she's been taken and ends with his assault on Malden.

Favorites are Shadow Rising and Fires of Heaven together.  The first three books suffer from being more formulaic, easy to predict and continue the theme of the heroes being the underdogs always on the backfoot and scrambling to manage their wins.

Then comes books 4 and 5 and for the first time for me I hit a story where the heroes were on even footing before the last chapters.  Rand gets ahead of things, Rand gets an entire people actually loyal to him, Perrin unites and saves the Two Rivers and all the struggle is internal or from actual enemies, no struggles to be taken seriously by the people he would lead.  Mat forms the Band.  

It made Lord of Chaos' prologue hit me when Min says "we're winning" and Elayne puts that to question.  The next are problably Towers of Midnight and Memory of Light, giving us the Finn and the end.   

Least favorite is Eye of the World.  Jordan trying to mimic Tolkien I'm sur emade sense at the time but as someone who respects Tolkien as a world builder but doesn't think much of him as a story teller...  Yeah, I wouldn't have kept reading WoT, except my parents already had books 1-5.

Favorite character has changed through the years.  When I was young it was Mat.  But now I think it's a toss up of Verrin and Cadsuane.  I empathize and understand them better than the others in the series anymore.  

On 3/3/2023 at 9:00 PM, bringbackthomsmoustache said:

My point is more that even a very basic knowledge of science can be an enormous power magnifier for one power users...

If you haven't, try checking out the SpellSong Cycle by L. E. Modesitt Jr.  First book is the Soprano Sorceress.  World is a place where music is magic, you sing something, visualize it and have to get every note perfect and it works.  Mistakes being very harsh and thus music kind of stagnated and never developed full harmonies and such.

Enter our main character who is from Earth and while not a super genius has a full college education and is a Voice Professor.  The addition of Highschool Science knowledge plus exhaustive vocal training literally makes them the most powerful thing in existence

4 hours ago, DojoToad said:

So it is okay to put an idiot in a leadership position to make up for education inequities?

Depends, is it an election or a selection?

That joke aside, it's not about not picking the best candidate it's about the criteria, which we don't know.  How do you judge "Highly competent and skilled"  Most situations go off of experience or a resume.  What chance does someone with a decade long education and 20 years in the field have against someone with the same education and a century?  

How likely do you suppose it is, given real world comparisons, that there were positions that said "Must have 4 decades experience in X"?   I mean we see that today with positions wanting years of experience and college degrees when they don't need em.  Heck, we see it in real life when certain political leaders are constantly put down because they're not old enough.

I'm not arguing the discrimination was automatically deliberate or malicious, but it's pretty clear it was there.

On 3/3/2023 at 3:48 AM, Elendir said:

If we promoted only intelligent highly competent leaders. Would it be discrimination of incompetents.

That depends on a hundred other factors that will be in play.  Fun fact, did you know there's a US Federal law that prevent a bank from deciding to only offer Loans Over a certain amount?  And it's an Anti-Discrimination law?

It makes no sense on the surface.  If a Bank is only looking at working in high dollar amounts isn't that their choice to limit their risk to their appetite?

Well, turns out the reason this was happening is because certain demographics statistically are less well off than others and by putting that type of wall in there they effectively got to keep refusing to give loans to said demographics while appearing not to be discriminatory.

If we promote only intelligent highly competent leaders in itself is fine.  If we promote only those with X years of experience to a position in order to quantify that highly competent piece and X years is near the end of the lifespan for a non-channeler, you are effectively discriminating against them from a legal standpoint.

 

On 3/3/2023 at 3:48 AM, Elendir said:

There is It is big difference between lack of evidence in yesterday event and event thousand years ago. Your conclusion is in contradiction with the foundations of Socratic teaching.

That we don't know something has zero validity for disclaiming, if our knowledge are so negligible.

Considering the modern Socratic Method of for Teaching is not for the student to come up with the answer but for the Teacher to guide the Student to a specific outcome via curated questions that help the student reach the "right" conclusion on their own.  It has no place in a situation where no one knows the "right" answer.  

The method is largely touted in Law and Medical fields.  Because it's main benefit is less coming up with a right answer and more developing critical thinking, public speaking and confidence in your ability to lead a room.  Something Lawyers and Doctors need.

Now, back to this situation.

We only have facts that every known leader from the Age of Legends was a Channeling person close to 3 centuries in age in a world where non-channelers aren't likely to live beyond 1 century.  We have no knowledge of how leaders were chosen.  

The question isn't even really "was their discrimination" so much as "Was it deliberate discrimination?"  and "Was it malicious discrimination?"  

I'm not arguing "We don't know so we can't assume"  I'm arguing we have facts that SHOW that only channelers had leadership and authority, now let's talk about the scenarios that lead to that.  

38 minutes ago, SinisterDeath said:

I think the time-burning of Balefire could be worked out scientifically, but I think we'd find that the further you go back, the power increase is exponential. 

You know, now I want to set a story during the Age of Legends using Balefire in a similar way to how Minority Report worked. 

A murder happens and It's up the TRPD (Tactical Retroactive Prevention Dept) have 10 days to catch the perp in order to retro prevent the crime.  Meanwhile rising concerns come from the scientific community that BaleFire is dangerous to our world.  Meanwhile, one person has uncovered a plot to start the War of Shadow, only to stop it they had to commit murder, can they avoid capture until past the point of no return?  Find out in "Trapped in Time"   

Sometimes I dislike that my DM history makes me so casually amused with ideas in existing worlds instead of purely writing my own.

7 minutes ago, SinisterDeath said:

Perhaps there is no exact science as to how long it takes before someone goes "mad"?

There likely isn't, but I was thinking more of "Alright, we know Channeler X first showed outwards signs when he killed 18 people on the banks of a river on the 14th.  So we have a circle of... 13 with Y Sa'Angreal that'll burn back to about the 13th."

Nonsense thoughts really, but the idea was curious to me.

The science nerd in me always wondered why no one found a way to measure exact distances related to power.

Someone mentioned dealing with Insane Channelers.  As horrific as it would have been, could we have figured out the exact time frame needed to take out one of the insane ones BEFORE they started their rampage?  Thus preventing just the bad stuff?  It's horrific, it's murdering a person who's only crime is being a certain sex, but still the alternatives are quite a bit worse.

1. You don't go off of lack of evidence as proof that it could exist, you go with the evidence available and make reasonable guesses.  That there is no record or knowledge of any single authority figure being a non-channeling person is telling.  

2: There's about a 100 years between the bore and the War of the Shadow, relatively speaking that is not a long time.  While it's possible the DO nudged here and there the Forsake were all several hundred years old when the bore was drilled and already had their character flaws that lead to their downfall.  

But it is an interesting question about rather or not maybe Demandred was a DO deliberate goal.

3: I'm not sure I know what you mean, elaborate?

2 hours ago, DojoToad said:

Was strength in the power correlated to onset and level of madness?

It's not directly, they talk about some people lasting forever and some losing it almost immediately.  I think that part is tied to will power and their own mental health.

BUT, being as weak as he is, he's exposed to far less of the taint at a time.  Plus, he clearly doesn't learn Gateways until the Black Tower so if he WAS channeling before hand, it was minimal uses, maybe sharpening a knife or cleaning something...

1 hour ago, SilentRoamer said:

Nobody has raised the spectre of the DO - the lack of the DO malevolence on the world would surely act as a driving factor to further egalitarianism.

Except it's there, just not actively being pushed by him, that's the whole point of Rand's epiphany at the end.

In general it is not a sense of service or a sense of egalitarianism that makes things better for people.  It's technology and ease of wealth.

At the risk of touching politics just a bit, the truly super rich on Earth are not good people.  Having that much wealth without spreading it is actively selfish and harmful.  But most people don't realize.  Why?  Because even those of us at the lower middle class and upper lower class have almost all basic needs met without issue.  It's a lot easier to ignore  problem or be unaware of it if it doesn't hit you.  

Look at a certain Wizard Game and all the issue that caused.  Mostly boiling down to people who WOULD care about the issue if they were faced with it being able to pretend it's not a big deal.

Tofu, I'm disagreeing with your opinion in a forum built to discuss things.  If at the end of the day your opinion on Mat stays the way it is, that's your opinion on a piece of fictional work.

You posted it here, in a forum, where discussion is expected.  I am thus engaging in that discussion.  At the end of the day, swaying you to change your mind isn't a specific goal, it's just a fun discussion.  

If you're not having fun, by all means, ignore away, but please don't act as if someone disagreeing with your opinion is something more significant than just that, a disagreement.

9 hours ago, Lightfriendsocialmistress said:

They do a pretty decent job of it and have the commoners buying it and almost worshipfully serving them. Modern day aes sedai clearly believe themselves superior but it’s become pathological, manipulative, deceitful with no real regard for the actual people. 

I think it honestly comes down to missing a key component.  The reason that Channelers would steadily become the top is tied to experience and ability.  The lady with 4 centuries of experience is likely above the guy with 40 years.  

But the Oath Rod cuts that.  Sisters live at most 300 or so...  Not really enough time to fully move past the lesser lived generation.

On 2/21/2023 at 8:50 AM, Stedding Tofu said:

But the Seanchan are not an unknown and how they treat channeleres is not an unknown.  The fact that they absorb every captive channeler into their army, break them and use them against their former friends and allies is well established.

Yes, it is well established that the Seanchan are really scummy and slavers. 

It's really well established that they are so potent and powerful military wise that it is unlikely anyone else can win against them in open conflict, which means diplomacy, politics and changing them from the inside are the approach.

It's also really well established that the last battle is going on with another army of potent channelers running around in full circles and devastating everyone along with the swarms of Shadowspawn.   

So... We have a scenario where there is a bad thing going on that can't really be dealt with without your full attention, but there's a LETHAL bad thing going on at the same time and you can't ignore it.
 

On 2/21/2023 at 8:50 AM, Stedding Tofu said:

I don't think it's unrealistic to expect to see Mat wrestle with this more.  I'm pretty sure he knocked her out and took her prisoner himself.

Again, we flat out KNOW Mat is against the damane and has taken actions to push back against it.

On 2/21/2023 at 8:50 AM, Stedding Tofu said:

If Mat truly believed it was he would be on the hunt for her from that moment on because if the world ends so does he. 

No, that is how you feel YOU would react in the scenario.  Not the same as how someone MUST act.  

 

24 minutes ago, Stedding Tofu said:

They are both domineering characters who expect obedience.  I really don't know why you object to me pointing this out so much, I didn't write them but they are on page the way they are.

You quoted Nynaeve bristling under Cadsuane as a sign that Nynaeve couldn't handle submitting to authority.  But then you said Cadsuane would make you bristle too.  Are you suggesting you have the same character flaws you're attributing to Nynaeve?
 

24 minutes ago, Stedding Tofu said:

I said she couldn't handle not being the one in charge and that the chapters after they left Ebou Dar when Alise usurped what she saw as her rightful role in organising the party, leaving her flummoxed, were hilarious.

Except she handled it fine.  She had a handful of comments that she shared with Elayne and not in front of the Kinwomen so as not to undermine Alise and went on with her day.  
 

24 minutes ago, Stedding Tofu said:

Others did it?  So someone else enslaved someone on his behalf and he's an accidental slaveowner who nonetheless  decides to benefit from owning a slave because it's convenient?  Not a strong argument in a court of law I think you'll find.

Actually, a court of law is going to go off the laws, so Seanchan courts won't find a crime and he's a royal so he has diplomatic immunity anywhere else.  We're not arguing Legal justice, we're arguing morality, in which case you cannot judge him for something others do on their own volition.  Which you are not only doing but then claiming he should have immediately fought to free a woman trying to kill him and everyone else on the Light's side.
 

24 minutes ago, Stedding Tofu said:

Now that's a bold contention.  I don't really see how you think he's going to liberate Seanchan's damane and get Tuon on board with it but I'm all ears.

Offhandedly?  Bring back Seta and Bethamin in secret, give Tuon an ultimatum to take action to start ending it now or he goes public.  Maybe even Collaring Tuon to make the point.  But I'm not in the situation and I'm not Mat so I can't say exactly what his plans will be, only that he clearly has thoughts that direction and has taken actions already in the series.  (Pushing Sul'Dam to learn so they can help force the change).   Realistically it's going to be a bloody civil war.  Fortuona gets to decide if she's the North or the South so to speak.
 

24 minutes ago, Stedding Tofu said:

Does he?  I remember he gave Jolien sweet buns laced with blue dye as a prank (I think BS was off in his characterisation but it is how he wrote Mat).

Yes, he does.  Towers of Midnight Chapter 17 and I quote:
“Go with the Aes Sedai,” Mat said. “I’ll give you your own horses, so you don’t have to rely on them. Learn to channel. That’ll be more use than dying. Maybe someday you two can convince Tuon of the truth. Help me find a way to fix this without causing the Empire to collapse.”
 

24 minutes ago, Stedding Tofu said:

Note that's because the Seanchan powerbase is based on damane so it would cripple the empire not because of "a pattern in how I view women in authority"

Yeah, hence it will likely be a bloody civil war.  Kind of like in real life when a significant part of a country is only possible on the back of slave labor and enough people want change and force it.  It's possible for Tuon to be on the right side of history, or maybe it won't happen and she'll have to be overthrown, we don't know, but I'm not talking about how likely something is, or how successful a plan will be.  You're arguing that Mat doesn't care, I'm arguing he does.  There are real world issues I despise and want to see changed, I am unlikely to succeed by myself, that fact doesn't change my actual stance on the matter, only my power.

Mat does NOT like the idea of Damane, he actively protects women who can channel from it and wants to see it end.  That he cannot do so on his own immediately does not change that.

39 minutes ago, Stedding Tofu said:

Whether you want to see Mat as a deep thinker with a clear strategy or a more reactive character who stumbles out of the frying pan into the fire is up to you and is a matter of opinion.

Except none of that really ties to the point we're debating.  You argued that because Mat didn't drop everything he was doing to actively fight an enemy combatant being collared in the middle of Tarmon Gaidin he doesn't sufficiently care.

By that logic why didn't Egwene immediately go to War with Fortuona  when they met on the battlefield?  Egwene knows exactly what the terror is of the collars and has already bloodied the Seanchan once.  Clearly her willingness to work with Fortuona shows she doesn't have a proper level of concern over the Damane issue.

Which sounds ridiculous to say, which is right up there with ignoring everything Mat does showing he does care about the issue to argue that one moment in the thick of battle says something about him.

 

26 minutes ago, Stedding Tofu said:

My criticism is Mat does not wrestle with this or even think about it more.  A few lines of troubled conscience or imagining Bode's or Egwene's reaction are all that are needed to establish this moral dilemma, not a major plot arc.  Instead it's how useful and well-behaved she is.

So an extra line right there would have made you happy while you ignore the multiple earlier lines in earlier books that much more clearly show his concern?  I'm confused.

So all the following meaning nothing:
-Freeing sisters from the A'dam
-Smuggling them out of Seanchan lands
-Taking the Sul'Dam who want to break the cycle to safety.
-Shielding them from the Seanchan when they catch up to Fortuona and making sure they come with him instead of going back collared like Fortuona would have wanted.
-Actively telling Seta and Bethamin to learn everthing they can about channeling and to help him make Tuon understand and change things.

But if he had had a momentary internal thought of "Wow, Bode will hate this."  It would have been all good for you?

To quote Batman of all things "It's not who you are on the inside, but what you do that defines you."  Mat internally is flippant, selfish, actively wants to avoid responsibility or danger.  Mat externally is a noble hero who rushes headlong into every problem and saves life after life while fighting for everyone else's freedom and safety.

Objectively it had to be somewhat bad for some to be effective overall.  We're talking about two kinds of people.  Ones who cannot channel with a lifespan of realistically a bit over a century with advanced medicine and such.   Then a second group with world altering powers and a life expectancy over close to a millenia.

The older, more powerful beings are going to rise to the top and even if altruistic will stay there.  Things like the Aiel are clearly people alright with Servitude, how that happened is kind of left to our imaginations.

To add one more point to the above.  Damer is the FIRST person Taim tests and verifies able to channel when Rand first brings him to the farm.

Fast forward to the Cleansing and we see Demandred' PoV.  He see's Flinn's group (A circle him and Corelle and Sarene).  He thinks it's just two sisters and a doddering old man.  Then Flinn spins and goes on the attack and Demandred panics for just a second being surprised that Flinn is "one of those Asha'man."   before he starts fighting back.

It's very unlikely that you'd casually forget the very first person you trained at the Tower, that you discovered right after infiltrating Rand's trust.

1 hour ago, Stedding Tofu said:

But this is the rub: Nynaeve does not think she should defer to anybody and specifically avoids Egwene once she is Amyrlin for this reason.

She avoids Egwene because she knows she should defer but it is both awkward and a hard habit to break of being in charge.  Also, she gets over it, she has no issues in the last few books at all with Egwene's authority.
 

1 hour ago, Stedding Tofu said:

To an extent.  Cadsuane and Alise don't enter the story until books 7 and 8 and Nynaeve's interactions with them are not early series.

She rubs wrong with Cadsuane for the same reasons you just got done saying you didn't like Cadsuane...  Not sure of the issue here.   Alise she doesn't actually have problems with, she gets frustrated with her but you'll notice she never takes it out on her, never takes her to task, never tries to force her superiority with Alise.  She's confused by her but then takes it in stride after the flight from Ebou Dar.  Nothing in the book shows he fighting Alise.
 

1 hour ago, Stedding Tofu said:

But that's Mat ALWAYS - put off thinking about the consequences of his actions.  I don't think any of Rand, Nynaeve, Egwene or his sister would give him a pass for being preoccupied.

Except they do, repeatedly.  And again, he didn't actively take a damane.  He ended their threat in combat and OTHERS did it on his behalf.  Which he is horrified by, but then, oh yeah, Trollocs everywhere, gotta focus.   Again, there are specific points to show he's not okay with or going to allow Damane to continue.
 

1 hour ago, Stedding Tofu said:

Second, I genuinely don't remember any encouragement by Mat to the sul'dam to learn to channel to reform the Empire from within.  Maybe it's there and I glossed over it but I reread the series last year and that's not something I remember. 

He specifically says it to Seta and Bethamin when they leave his company with the Aes Sedai.

 

1 hour ago, Stedding Tofu said:

And if you think Tuon is a lady for turning I have to disagree.  Axe meet head seems far more likely for Mat than liberating Seanchan's damane.

I hate to say this, but I'm picking up on a pattern about how you view most of the women in authority here.  Again, we can already see her softening with Mat and just because early Tuon would act a certain way doesn't mean she will down the road as Mat works.

 

1 hour ago, Stedding Tofu said:

And I don't think I misunderstand his character at all, thank you for sharing your opinion to that effect.

You're literally saying his lack of immediate action regarding an enemy combatant in the middle of the last battle somehow says he doesn't have enough concern for the whole issue.  That is woefully misunderstanding of him and the situation.

 

I would STRONGLY recommend changing everything from the get go.  If just to save headaches later.

Example of said headaches.  About four years ago my wife started a D&D campaign based on the Legend of Zelda.  She just used a version of the world, kept all the races in (using 5e races as stand-ins) and changed things to fit a group dynamic vs a lone hero.   Within 4 months she had made SIGNIFICANT changes to the world and lore, not to mention adding tons and tons of her own plot, world building and details.

Well, now it's spread, the campaign itself has lasted the full four years and still going.  Side campaigns have sprung up that touch on this world and make a fairly large connected world between about five campaigns.

We started toying with putting it together as a book in the vein of a Campaign Setting, who knows, maybe it would do well as a third party book or a DM's Guild piece.   But as we've written, well, SO much has to change, and ever single piece has to go through screening to make sure it's not borrowing.  Example of a hassle is there is an NPC who was originally a Lionel (The Centaur Lion monsters) who was an inventor savant.  Very quickly lionel in her world evolved to two legged creatures (Using Leonin stats) and became much smaller.   Nothing about her or her background even connected to the original source, but she was called a Lionel in every single instance.   We still periodically find the word in our notes somewhere and have to correct it.

37 minutes ago, Sir_Charrid said:

It never really made sense to me that Taim would willingly move from being number 2 of really 2, or even number 3 (behind Rand and Logain) to being what, number 7 or 8 in line for Naeblis? 

Ambition and confidence?  He believes being head of the Black Tower and being who he is he can eventually take all the others off the board.   What is that with Rand?  If he kills Rand he.... What... Tries to fight the last battle in his place?  Nope, taking out Rand means the DO wins.  So if the DO wins he needs to be on the right side of that conflict (From his perspective).

6 minutes ago, Sir_Charrid said:

We have no idea what happens post last battle with respects to the Damme or Mats, or even Tuons plans longer term.

Kind of reminds me of siding with the Institute in Fallout 4.  There are two ways you can play it.  You can lean into the "Synths are just machines" approach and change nothing.  Or you can lean into the "Synths are thinking sentient beings" and start to enact changes.  You don't SEE these changes by the end of the game itself, but you can very clearly be aiming it that way.