Without knowing the actual legal codes of Andor I can't really answer.

That said, Morgase DOES know the legal codes, so if that's how she ruled it's likely how Andor would see it.

Level of force is different in different places and different locations.  In almost all situations in US law, for example, there is a responsibility to de-escalate and flee the situation short of using lethal force.  The Castle laws are exceptions but almost ALL of them require you to be on your own property.

So, there might be places where the situation was fully in Perrin's right, but no, there's an easy argument for his guilt.  Because the WC's committing a crime doesn't absolve Perrin from committing a crime.

Let's use a fantasy series example.

There's a Cooper.  Each year the cooper's tax rates have gone up, the tax collector has become nasty and forceful about it and the Cooper feels the Tax Collector is charging more and pocketing it.  There is a law and a path to address such grievances and the Cooper could file a complaint through proper channels.   The Cooper feels it won't do any good since people are corrupt and so never says a word, just deals with  it.  Until one day they snap and kill the Tax Collector when the TC threatens their family.  

During the trial ALL of this comes out.   Is the Cooper guilty of Murder?  There's reasons he got pushed to that point, the TC was in the wrong.   But ultimately, the Cooper still committed Murder.  

In the case of Perrin, the WC's didn't have authority, but that doesn't give Perrin the right to use Lethal force against them for killing Wolves.  Now, if he had stayed calmed, revealed himself and demanded them back down and walk away, or just let him and Egwene and the wolves leave?  And THEN they attacked him, then he'd have an argument for lethal force.

11 hours ago, Andra said:

The way we learn she can channel is by her nonchalantly igniting multiple wall torches simultaneously, without setting fire to anything else in the hallway by accident.  Given what we are told in the books, that would have taken excellent control and dexterity with the Power, if not necessarily great strength.  And it meant she was actually quite proficient at using "weaves inside a building with friendlies."

In a calm environment with no pressure or time constraints, sure.  I'm a hobbyist Archer.  I can go out to range, take a moment to warm up and then hit multiple stationary targets no problem.  If you put me in a battle situation with people trying to kill me, friendlies and enemies running around and crossing in and out of each other, I don't think I'd do nearly as well, would I?

16 hours ago, Mailman said:

Again you are arguing my point that increasing the numbers leads to a greater chance of success.

It always depends on the circumstances.  In this case, there is a known factor that SOMEONE is a traitor but not who.  The more people you include the more chance you give information to the traitor who can use it betray you.

By limiting the number you reduce the chance of finding the traitor.  

Example, there are 10 People and 2 are traitors.   If you pick a group of 5 then there are 5 rolls of the dice.  If you pick a group of 2 there are only 2 rolls of the dice.  If you personally feel those 2 are completely loyal then you've reduced those dice rolls.   You can be wrong, but that's only with the advantage of book knowledge.

Who is more likely to turn to the shadow?  The random footsoldier offered power or wealth or who's family is threatened?  Or the Noble who's been with you for decades, fought beside you, saved your life?

WE know Agelmar picked badly, but within the context of the story it's not a bad pick at all.

6 hours ago, Asthereal said:

The Aiel were specifically entered into the Dragon's Peace as peacekeeping force. So that job is taken.

 

But the Dragon Reborn being the de-facto leader of the Asha'man, and the treaty being his treaty does imply that through him the Black Tower is bound to it. But that's mostly speculation. Where's my grey and white Ajah at? I (brown) will record for posterity's sake.

I'd argue they're not officially included in the same way Rand left out the White Tower.  He knows Channeling Organizations will do their own thing and so isn't trying to give an excuse to start a war sooner than needed.

6 hours ago, Asthereal said:

Actually, the team found a printout of a fan theory about who killed Asmodean, with a note from Jordan simply saying "this is correct". They chose to add it to the glossary for Towers of Midnight, so we as readers would experience the revelation in the same way Sanderson and the team did.

And spoiler alert: it wasn't Demandred. ? 

It was changed to Graendal, I'm speaking to the original plan.  Let me see if I can find the article on it.

http://www.theoryland.com/forums/discussion/8767

Relevent RJ notes revealed in the article are:

"Demandred: Hated/feared/despised Lews Therin. Like Lanfear, he plays for larger stakes than most of the others, who are trying to stake out wordly kingdoms. HE WILL SHOW UP CLAIMING TO BE MAZRIM TAIM. TAKING ADVANTAGE OF RAND'S AMNESTY.|

"She does not know that Asmodean was a prisoner of Rand, nor, of course, that he was killed by Demandred."

The she in that section is Moghedien

Now why RJ changed his mind?  Don't know, there's theories but none verified and it's not really important because the change is what is canon.  I brought it up more to address that RJ had never considered Belial as Taim.  (Not a bad theory or anything, just sharing relevant info)

3 minutes ago, Mailman said:

My point is exactly that because if he suspects DFs then sending increased numbers reduces the chance of DFs stealing the Horn. You give the greater chance of success by sending more soldiers unless you are arguing that the majority of the humans are DFs.

He suspects DFs but feels his personal confidants are loyal.  We know he's wrong, but it's a human failing to trust people.  No one suspected Ingtar in the books either.
 

5 minutes ago, Mailman said:

There where 100s of fades with the trolloc force that they destroyed. Coupled with soldiers to help defend the channlers you are still saying they would have had no value. This makes no sense.

 

If Amalisa and the 2 nameless channelers could achieve absolutely nothing what was the point of them standing against the trolloc force. Again you make no sense.

Amalisa and the other two were not useful strength wise.  Amalisa had training that when combined with Nynaeve and Egwene's power made her formidable.   Her destruction was done in an open area with no concern for collateral.  Not the same as trying to target weaves inside a building with friendlies.
 

5 minutes ago, Mailman said:

How could he possibly be 100% sure that anyone is not a DF.

Shall I rephrase as "Full confident they are loyal"?   Sure, factually nothing is ever 100% unless it's factually verified.  But that wasn't my intent and you latching onto this is a show that you're not interesting debating the actual point.

Also, I didn't suddenly twist my logic re: Amalisa and the two nameless channelers.  They would have accomplished nothing without Nynaeve and Egwene.  The three of them together were drawing less power than Moraine by herself and she was hard pressed to handle Winters Night with help against just Trollocs.  2 fades would have ripped through them the same as they did the guards.

7 minutes ago, SingleMort said:

I don't remember anyone in the show talking about failure to help Malkier can you specify where that was mentioned?

They haven't covered it, but the reality is Malkier fell, until we see reason otherwise there's no reason to dismiss the original plot.  Original plot is that 43 years prior Malkier fell, 100 Aes Sedai tried to go help but were too slow and failed and decided to just pretend they hadn't tried.

If the show retcons to something else, will address that then, but until then there's no reason to dismiss the books.  You disagree with this stance, I'm aware.

 

9 minutes ago, SingleMort said:

I don't really see this as just a matter of trust. If Shienar are not going to use the Horn then it's very presence becomes a burden and drain on their resources to protect it. Unless they actually think Tar Valon would use the Horn against them then whatever else they do with it they should not care about

It would be a burden and drain.  It's also a massive weapon in the hands of the light that must be protected.  If you don't think anyone else is trustworthy to keep it safe and you care about the world, then you hold the burden.

5 minutes ago, Andra said:

The entire point of this topic is comparisons between the show and the books, and how the show could have done it better than it did.  Given that, the comparison is completely valid.

The broader point yes.  This particular issue is about the Horn.  You can't compare the Horn falling into the hands of the Shadow when the Light currently knows where it is vs the Not knowing where it is at all because those are two different versions of the story.   You can't use the version that doesn't apply to make a comparison.

If your argument was "they should have just left it unknown like in the books"  you'd have an argument.  But instead you said "Having it lost in a place where the Shadow can find it isn't any worse than not knowing where it is at all."   That's only a fair comparison if both were options IN universe.  They aren't.  The options were trying to get it to safety or leaving it to fall to the shadow, those were the only two options.  So you can't compare the third option that was not on the table in universe for these people.}

It'd be like me critiquing things in universe in the MCU because Adam Warlock could beat Thanos in the comics.   That's great, but in context of the MCU, Adam Warlock was last scene still being built and so is not relevant to the conversation.

 

13 hours ago, Andra said:

Turak is far more than just a generic baddie.  For one, he's the actual leader of the Forerunners.  More importantly, he is the reason Rand finally earns the right to his heron-mark sword.

He is the head of the forerunners but that could be looped into one of the other seanchan, maybe Tuon's general.  Have him retreat instead of dying.

As for Rand earning his heron mark.  There were no witnesses, no one acknowledged the feat.  He's not actually acknowledged as a blademaster until his casual dual in book 7, even then, it's an informal statement by someone, not a true acknowledgement.

Beyond all that, him being a blademaster is cool but ultimately not important to the narrative. (note I said blademaster, not being a swordsman in general).

9 minutes ago, SingleMort said:

yep all the more reason why it makes no sense for them to keep it in Fal Dara. It's like keeping plans for the atomic bomb on the front lines during WW2.

I agree, it's not a smart idea.

Let's look at a few things that put it in perspective of understandable however.

Malkier fell arounnd 43 years prior to the story.  At the same time the commonly held belief is that Tar Valon didn't fail to help Malkier, they refused.

So, 43 years ago Shienar was NOT the front lines.  And immediately after a very strong reason was given to NOT trust Tar Valon.  The Borderlands already can't trust anyone else south of them.  So where does the Horn go?

Oddly enough this is a love case of lack of trust born of lack of communication and honesty, something the books push hard.
 

12 minutes ago, Andra said:

So we can only compare something to itself?

How novel.

 

But even so:  in the TV verse, we were better off not knowing where the Horn was than we are now, knowing that Fain has it.

Better choice of words on my part is comparing a situation to another situation in universe.  Your comparison requires people IN universe to understand multiverse theory and know about the different play out that happened in the books.  Without that knowledge the comparison isn't valid.

As for your second point.  It's invalid.  We didn't know Fain was going to come steal it prior to that event happening so you can't use that hind sight to justify your opinion.  A person who got in a car wreck running late to work would have been better off staying home, but they didn't know the car wreck was coming so it wasn't wrong of them at the time to try and get to work.
 

15 minutes ago, Andra said:

Yes, the human forces were stronger 2000 years ago.  As were the forces of the Shadow all across the Westlands than a single force focused on just Fal Dara.

 

Malkier is only the comparison because you refuse to look at any other comparison.

You have no way of validating the Shadow being stronger 2000 years prior vs now when the seals are weakening.  Ishamael was active during both times so they were at best the same then and now where as humanity is factually weaker.  Malkier is the only comparison because it's the only nation to fully lose to the shadow in the current setting and the only one that could have had retake attempts with the current time's Aes Sedai and Militaries.

Per your statement about how Fal Dara could just be retaken, why wasn't Malkier?  Why, instead of utter silence from the Tower and the perception that the Tower abandoned Malkier, didn't we see an offense to retake it and put in a child with an Aes Sedai regent?  They knew about Lan.  A Land fully embracing the Tower would be invaluable, yet no one retook Malkier.
 

19 minutes ago, Andra said:

No, the Aes Sedai didn't come to Malkier's aid.

We are told in the books explicitly that, though the Tower had told everyone they were too late to save them, they actually never tried.

You're mis-remembering what we were told.  The Tower didn't say they were too late while never trying.  The Tower let everyone think they didn't try because they thought that was better than the idea that the tower failed.  The reality is they sent over a hundred sisters who arrived too late to defend, but could have been there to retake if it was possible.  This is revealed in Chapter 25 of New Spring.
 

29 minutes ago, Andra said:

 

My point was that "knowing the Horn was there" couldn't have been the reason the trollocs attacked the city.  Because they didn't know it was there.

Hence my chalking it up to a misunderstanding and acknowledging it as a misunderstanding.  But given your clear statement here.  At what point did anyone suggest it was the reason for the Trolloc's attack?  

 

8 minutes ago, Andra said:

No worse than not knowing where it is.

Which has been the case for 3,000 years in the books.

False equivalency.  You don't look at a situation compared to another situation, you look at it in it's own light.  Either way, incorrect conclusion.

Conclusion one: We can validly compare the two, in which case not knowing where it is is a better option than knowing it is in the hands of the shadow even if they don't realize it.

Conclusion two (correct): The fact is that the TV verse knows where the Horn is and doesn't know about the other turning of the wheel where they didn't.  You don't compare the situation to a non-existant what if, you compare the situation to the situation.
 

11 minutes ago, Andra said:

Well, except for all the land taken by the Shadow during the Trolloc Wars, which was taken back.

The time 2000 years earlier where Aes Sedai were stronger as were nations?  That point aside, the Trollocs did not expand and hold, they rampaged.  Either way, Malkier is the comparison.
 

12 minutes ago, Andra said:

Malkier was further from Fal Dara than Fal Dara is from Fal Moran.  And Fal Dara is actually that king's own territory (which he would have been significantly more motivated to reclaim).  Malkier was not.  When another kingdom falls, you mourn and move on.  When your own city falls, you fight to takke it back.

How?  With what forces?  How fast can they mobilize?  If they could mobilize quickly there would have been discussion about it.
 

15 minutes ago, Andra said:

The circumstances around the fall of Malkier were dramatically different from what we see in the show at Fal Dara.  It was largely an inside job, while the only equivalent now was apparently the theft of the Horn.

Except we're discussing taking it back.  And in the case of Malkier, people came, Aes Sedai came.  They just came too later to defend.  So if taking it back is so easy, why didn't they?
 

16 minutes ago, Andra said:

That's not at all what I said, and I'm baffled how you could have read it that way.

Yes, you did, you said there's no reason to go to the city unless they know about the horn.  You've now conveniently edited your post.  Given that we're not enemies or malicious, I'm going to assume you meant the way you've edited it and simply made the edit to be more clear in what you intended and it's a simple misunderstanding.  

8 hours ago, Andra said:

But unless the darkfriends (that he already knew existed) were among his inner circle, there is no reason to assume losing the city means the Shadow finds the Horn. 

Except just losing the horn is devastating.  Even if the shadow doesn't find it, losing it is bad.  

You mention the other border lands and retaking the city, but we know from Malkier that if the Trollocs take land, it doesn't get taken back.  The blight spreads, the land corrupts and it's down.  Nothing in the books suggests in any way that land lost to the shadow could just be taken back.  It never happens until the very final victory.  

Also, you mention there's no reason to take the city if they don't know about the Horn?  Trollocs take and destroy and removing Fal Dara is a major hit to the forces of the light with or without the Horn.  I'm genuinely confused that you think the city would only get taken over the horn.
 

7 hours ago, Mailman said:

Or you dont make Algemar a bumbling fool and have 50 men or 100 men take the horn to safety. Those men are not going make a difference to saving the Gap againnst 20,000+ trollocs and the safety of the Horn is far more important anyway.

 

Or you have him move the Horn before the very last moment that the trollocs attack.

 

Or you get the channelers to protect the horn as it is evacuated.

He knows there's Darkfriends, he trusts the job to people he is 100% convinced are loyal, and again, it would have worked fine except for Fain that no one knew was coming.

Moving sooner only works if he knew the size of the force coming, he didn't, we only find that out IN episode 8.

Getting the channelers doesn't work because, again, Amalisa plus those 2 nameless wouldn't have done anything effective anywhere.  It's only because of the two ridiculously strong women he didn't know were there that Amalisa accomplished anything.
 

4 hours ago, Cauthonfan4 said:

But one is reasonably understandable and one vilified a character for no reason.

So to be clear, your stance is the show should cater to you specifically?  Because Moraine sending the reds after him in an example of her hubris and errors seems like a GREAT way to set up Mat's distrust of Aes Sedai, Mat's confinement to Tar Valon  and provide info to the Reds that pushes Siuan's plot along.

You don't like it, that's all well and good, but your personal opinion is not the same as it being factually incorrect.
 

1 hour ago, Cauthonfan4 said:

If this was remotely true why didn't anyone yell for those 100 men the moment fain showed up? Your stgument makes no sense logically. 

White's very valid answer aside.  There were 3 men in the room vs 2 Fades and Fain.  Assuming any type of suprise element the fight is over before anyone CAN raise an alarm.

2 hours ago, Andra said:

They didn't need to know about Fain.

They knew - before the battle, and before any order to dig up the Horn was given - that there were darkfriends within the walls.  Given that knowledge, it was supremely idiotic to get it out of hiding without knowing who they were and what they were after.

Agelmar's choices were:

A: Leave the horn hidden.  If the city is overrun then the horn is lost and will potentially be found by the Shadow.

B: Bring the horn out and get it out of there, trusting that his personally picked men were not DarkFriends. 

He was wrong most likely, but given the two choices.  ONE of them gives a chance for the Horn to be kept and the other one loses it.

It's only due to factors that Agelmar did not know about that the city stood.  Without Nynaeve and Egwene the trollocs take Fal Dara.  So given the choice between 100% lost and a chance at not being lost, you take the better odds.

Look, say someone jumped from a third floor building, hit pavement and is paralyzed.  You'd call that stupid.  Now let's add in the details that the building was on fire and there was no other way out.  Jump and hope or stay and burn, suddenly instead of stupid it's the better option.

1 hour ago, Andra said:

Mat could have been given that job, along with the explanation that though he was out of bed, he wasn't well enough to travel.

 

No problem, no need for faked outrage, no reason to sic the Red Ajah on him.

The same people complaining now would instead be complaining that Moraine left one of the possible Dragons behind.  There's a plothole no matter how you slice it.

Just now, Cauthonfan4 said:

Instead of vilifying him how about go with the obvious very easy out and say that he was recovering from his healing and unfit to travel?

 

It's a very simple solution to the problem without all the nonsense avout mat being a dark person 

The speaks well in a vacuum and if they knew before episode 6 was done they could have done that.

But, instead they filmed and finished episode 6, went on hiatus due to pandemic, then found out they had to redo the last two episodes.  

Did they have access to the scenes and set for the Tar Valon Waygate?   Did they have the budget to refilm all of those scenes a second time without Mat?  

I don't know those answers, neither do you.  For the sake of argument.  You find out Harris is gone after the scene where they're all at the Gate.  How do you procede?

41 minutes ago, SingleMort said:

Lol okay yeah I'm sure Fain was just in Fal Dara because the weather's lovely this time of year 

Do Agelmar, Uno, Loial and Perrin know Fain is there?  If not your statement means nothing to my point.
 

41 minutes ago, SingleMort said:

Also you mention "Ingtar's betrayal" just want to point out it is complete speculation and assumption on your part that there even is any betrayal. You've pointed out in many previous posts how things like the story of the horn and dagger are going in different directions so why not that too?

It could be someone other than Ingtar, but I don't see a narrative purpose for that change.  If they do change it, my point remains that it was not known that someone high ranking to Agelmar was the traitor.  We SEE Fain use the password and sneak in, so we know the same betrayal Ingtar did in the books happened.  Even if it turns out to be, say Uno, instead of Ingtar, it doesn't change that the plan was to take the horn to safety and the plan failed because of an unknown element arriving.
 

41 minutes ago, SingleMort said:

Mat did not have the Red Ajah sent after him

Funny enough, this is a discussion point worth having.

The reality is the actor left.  So he wasn't there for Episode 7-8.

Now, I can easily understand and get behind what's coming with the reds.  BUT, there were other ways to take it.  So let's talk to this.

This was a change that show didn't WANT to do and had no choice but to deal with.  The actor left and so the character has to suddenly be removed from two episodes.   What path would you do with it?
 

4 hours ago, Pukel-man said:

In the show, they believed that they were about to be overrun, and everyone slaughtered by a trolloc horde. In that context, they would blow the horn in desperation. Or, if the believed they could not blow the horn, they would not take it out of hiding to prevent it falling into the wrong hands. If they believed they were going to be overrun, taking it out of hiding creates a high likelihood of it falling into the wrong hands. In the show, there was no reason to support their actions. If they believed they were going to be overrun, they would take it out to blow it, or they would leave it in hiding. Either the trolloc threat was overstated in the dialogue, or the actions contradicted the dialogue. It was bad writing.

You're missing context and some reasoning here.

No, leaving it hidden if they're about to be over-ridden is a horrible idea, because even if the enemy doesn't find it, it's not lost to your side.

No one knew Fain was going to be able to get inside the walls (or that he existed)  So you can't judge the situation based on his involvement.  The reality is they were uncovering it to take it to safety elsewhere, and if not for Ingtar's betrayal (that we don't know about yet) it would have succeeded.  So the failing there is the fact that no one considered that the traitor could be one of Agelmar's most trusted men.

On 1/20/2022 at 6:30 PM, Gypsum said:

The corollary to that is when he describes people riding. You don't steer a horse with your knees! I don't know how that even works.

The term is used often at least in AZ and IA where I've been from.  It's not literally just your knees, it's your legs as a whole.

In general It's just like reins.  You're laying the reins on the opposite side of where you want your horse to go.  In a similar line you turn your head and shoulders in the direction you want to go, shifting you balance some so the weight pulls a bit that way while applying light pressure with the leg on the outside of the turn. 

Stopping, going, going waster is generally always with the legs as well, occasionally vocal commands, but I've never actually snapped the reins.

If you're looking for official word, Robert Jordans notes confirm that Taim was Demandred in disguise until sometime between books 8 and 9.

There are specific notes to Demandred being Taim, Demandred being in Caemlyn and killing Asmodean, etc.

Then for whatever reason (There's a few theories)  RJ changed his mind, confirming Demandred as a separate person when he failed to recognize Damer Flynn at the Cleansing.

AMoL then confirms that Taim was a modern day DF trained by Demadnred.

2 hours ago, Deviations said:

John Wayne

Early Clint Eastwood

Rip in Yellowstone

on and on and on

The stoics of the past.  And yet, when you look to action heroes in today's time do we get stone faced tough guys?

We get Robert Downey Jr and Chris Evans, who show emotion, weakness and personality.

We get roles played by Leonardo DiCaprio who shows emotion easily and honestly.

We get Chris Hemsworth who weeps openly for loss the character is experiencing and falls to weakness to have to try and fight his way back to who he was.

There's a reason today's leading men aren't like Wayne or Eastwood...  Times changes, audience preference and desire change with them.

 

48 minutes ago, Cauthonfan4 said:

I think this is an idiotic idea of monumental proportions to begin with. No one should even NEED A PERSON DESIGNATED SPECIFICALLY WHOSE JOB IT IS TO MOURN THEIR PASSING.  Just think about how dumb that sounds. Imagine if a church literally told people they HAD to come mourn someone else's passing. 

Except it has precedent as is a real thing that some cultures did.  I think the entire concept of the a biologically determined Monarchy is ludicrous, yet I don't freak out because there's Kings and Queens of the show.

1 minute ago, WhiteVeils said:

But I think, especially with Moiraine sending the Red Ajah after him, he's got lots of reasons to show this memory loss.

It'd be easy to show it as little things periodically.  Start with the reds questioning him and he's recounting Winter's Night and gets to the part where Moraine walks up to them and then... Can't remember anything she said, that whole converastion is gone, next thing he remembers is fleeing from Shadar Logoth.

Boom, Reds don't know about Dragon so that stays under wraps but now they know Moraine was up to something, something that involved taking these people into Shadar Logoth, enough for suspicion to help start the Tower Schism.

Follow that up with random deja vu notes where something triggers Mat thinking back to...  he can't remember.

2 hours ago, Deviations said:

I've seen this written before.  I'm not disagreeing with it but did Jordan ever speak about it or write about it?  I never made the comparison when reading the books, probably because I was raised Catholic and those positions are so firmly male in my head that it didn't occur to me.

So, I went looking.  Found a few links.

https://13depository.blogspot.com/2002/03/aes-sedai-laws-and-customs.html

http://13depository.blogspot.com/2002/03/aes-sedai-laws-and-customs-society.html

They're long reads but they discuss at length the parallels, connections and similarities between the two.  

One specific quote from RJ:
The Amyrlin is elected by the Sitters of the Hall. Her closest real-world equivalent, the Pope, is elected by the Cardinals of the Catholic Church. This is confirmed in Robert Jordan’s notes, where he writes that:
 

People speak of the Amyrlin Seat as the Catholic Church might speak of donning the Shoes of the Fisherman or ascending to the Holy See of Rome.

- Robert Jordan, General Notes and Thoughts

Some fun story highlights that I hadn't really known due to my not being a historian in the area of the church.

"The Blue Ajah could be compared with the Jesuit Order of the Catholic Church. Both are known for their dedication to causes, for their extensive use of—and rumoured involvement in—pragmatic politics, for their large spy network, for their great influence on the leadership (papacy or Amyrlin), and for their belief that the Order should use all their members' skills to the optimum. Like the Blues, the Jesuits were disbanded under one Pope (Clement XIV in 1773), hunted and forced into hiding, and then later reinstated by another Pope (Pius VII in 1814)."

And

The law on selecting an Amyrlin assumes, rather than states, that the candidate is an Aes Sedai (Lord of Chaos, In the Hall of the Sitters). Egwene was the first non-Aes Sedai initiate of the Tower to be raised (A Crown of Swords,An Oath) and the rebel Aes Sedai were originally embarrassed by this break in custom, but it does have a real life parallel in the Catholic Church. Any man baptised into the Catholic Church can be Pope, although the last Pope who was not already a Cardinal when elected was Pope Urban VI in 1378. Canon law requires that if a layman or non-bishop is elected, he receives episcopal consecration from the Dean of the College of Cardinals before assuming the Pontificate. This is an ironic parallel with the newly raised Egwene, who promptly raised four other Accepted Aes Sedai and by implication, herself, (in contradiction to the law on raising Aes Sedai) in her inaugural speech. Interestingly, she did swear the Three Oaths before she was raised by the Hall of the Tower, although the Tower Sitters did not know that.

4 hours ago, Andra said:

I'm not moving any goalposts, because "savvy manipulators" wasn't ever my point.

And someone who wrote "Clearly you've never been part of any business" is the LAST person who should be getting pissy at being given some snark.

The argument I addressed was "The aes sedai don't seem like skilled politicians and manipulators"   I responded by pointing out that the real deal don't seem that skilled either.  Then you jump to "We're only talking about the books"  Which is a different argument, so yes, goalposts moved.  Maybe not internally for you, but from the actual discussion yes.

Also, my statement about being part of business politics is a perfectly plausible scenario as many people are blessed to NOT have to deal with that garbage.  Where as you suggesting I don't know the source material for the story we're actively on a fan forum to discuss is attempting to demean or dismiss my statement.   Mine was that you likely did not understand, yours was that I wasn't knowledgeable enough to be here.
 

4 hours ago, Andra said:

Alviarin was stripped of her position as Keeper.  Which caused enough shame that the First Reasoner punished her beyond even what Elaida had called for.  For "bringing disgrace" to the White Ajah.  That's just the most recent example.  We are told in the books that penances set by an Ajah are usually more severe than those set by the Amyrlin.

You mean that time where Alviarin actually got punished?   Not all those times she tried gutsy, stupid or unlikely things and succeeded?   Doesn't really disagree with my points at all.
 

4 hours ago, Andra said:

The White Tower isn't a Fortune 500 company.

The Hall of the Tower isn't a corporate boardroom.

The Amyrlin isn't a CEO.

The Sitters aren't board members.

Nor would any similar parallels with real world government bodies apply.

No, the white Tower is the Catholic Church/Vatican.
The Hall of the Tower is the College of Cardinals.
The Amyrlin is the Pope.
Sitters are Cardinals

Jordan deliberately made that parallel.  You think the politics of the Catholic church aren't in the same boat as other governing bodies or businesses?  Interesting.

4 hours ago, Andra said:

Corporate boards can't vote to still and execute the CEO.

The CEO can't order board members to be flogged in front of the entire company.

Neither can arrange for CEOs of competing companies to be kidnapped and held in the Executive suites "for their own safety."

All of those things happened in the Tower.

Congress can vote to remove and imprison a president.
The President can publicly disgrace most people.
The President can disappear people, the CIA does it, so do other agencies.

The specifics of the punishment are different (We don't spank people anymore)  But yeah, the parallels are there.

4 hours ago, Andra said:

Clearly, you have a vivid imagination.

I am familiar with all of those.  Which is how I know how they differ from the politics of the White Tower as portrayed in the books.

Do you happen to have examples of Ajah heads turning on their own because their own overstepped in a small or just embarrassing ways?  Because I'm pretty sure half the reason Elaida kept the stole at all was because the Reds circled with the mentality of "Ours, right or wrong" because overthrowing her would be a bigger stain on the Red Ajah as a whole than just putting up with her bungling.
 

4 hours ago, Andra said:

Again, no one is talking about "real life politics and business behavior" here except you.

 

The comparison was explicitly between the things in the show and the depictions in the books.

Have you even read them?

You're moving the goalposts.  And we're jumping to the trite "Have you even read the books" approach, quaint.

The original argument is that these people aren't savy or manipulative enough to be puppeteers of the world as the book describes them.  My argument is that people who very much don't look savy or manipulative constantly end up in positions with that type of power and authority.  Combine that with the fact that no, Aes Sedai in the books barring few exceptions don't ever come off as being suave or truly machiavellian in their behavior and yeah, it's believable.  (Though I acknowledged and agree that Moraine's oath in public was a bit much.)

54 minutes ago, Andra said:

So bad that her own Ajah Head would have set her a penance - and probably a public one.

Clearly you've never been part of any business, or watched the police, circle the wagons, protect the image, very common.

 

56 minutes ago, Andra said:

And blaming someone else for a failure she had direct authority over would have meant she would not be assigned similar authority any time soon.  Liandrin was far too ambitious to have done anything that would risk her own position like that.

Again, real life politics and business behavior shows that wrong.  It is very common for people to blame someone else even if that someone else shouldn't have had authority.  And get away with it sadly.

47 minutes ago, Andra said:

It's possible for them to be master manipulators, yet still have head-scratching blind spots.

Thousands of years thinking you're the smartest people on your continent will do that.

 

The issue I have with the way the show depicts Tower politics isn't with the occasional blind spot (which the Aes Sedai in the books absolutely had).  It's the way they didn't seem to see anything at all.

 

In the books, Liandrin would have been laughed out of the Hall and punished by her own Ajah for trying to stick her nose in another Ajah's business, or for trying to blame Moiraine before the entire Hall for her own failing.  No Aes Sedai in the books would have fallen for it, much less all of them.

 

That's not about human failings or misperceptions.  It's about the actual political structure and functioning of the Tower itself.

My only disagreement there is the idea that her own ajah would jump on Liandrin no matter what.  If she had tried and failed and made them look worse, absolutely.  But I also absolutely believe it's a case of "It worked, so we're watching but moving on."