On 2/12/2022 at 7:29 PM, Andra said:

Elyas may have used violence, but it was aimed only at frightening the horses, and getting the Whitecloaks to leave.  We know this because the wolves tell Perrin that's what they're doing.  They explicitly were not trying to harm the "two legs."  The only Whitecloaks that were even injured were the two Perrin killed.

 

Which makes Elyas' injury an unjustified use of deadly force by the Whitecloaks, and Perrin's use of deadly force in response to be justified.

Ah, So we know Elyas was being non-lethal based on the testimony of things that can't speak to anyone but Perrin and Elyas and who were already deemed not people for purposes of the trial.  That won't fly.  If Person A swings a knife at Person B to "Scare them" and Person B responds by shooting them.  Person A is the aggressor and in general terms Person B was defending themselves.  Depending on the specific laws Person B might ALSO be guilty of a crime, but Person A definitely is.

Also, to claim Perrin was acting in defense of Elyas would require establishing Perrin KNEW Elyas was injured, which again is only verifiable through the Wolf Bond which is not admissible since it's pure hearsay.
 

On 2/12/2022 at 7:29 PM, Andra said:

What I was referring to was the fact that because she applied a different law than what the Whitecloaks had wanted, the charge was no longer "murder."

Again, that was her decision based on the facts given at the time.  No guarantee that would be her decision with more details.  (Not saying right or wrong, but since we don't know it's not a valid base stance for an argument)

 

17 hours ago, Pukel-man said:

Why would TV Bran Al'Vere care to hoist the flag of Manetheren? He's not from there, it means nothing to him or very many of the current Emonds Fielders.

Why would he care in the books at this point either?  You act like it's a deep part of their heritage and culture.  It's not.  It's a story Moraine spins at them when they're going at her as an angry mob.  She shames them into not being brutes and thugs by claiming they come from something noble.  Before that, none of them would have been able to say they were of Manetheren.   

When it's raised later?  It was Verin's suggestion, not some deep seated call of their ancestral binds.

18 minutes ago, Andra said:

It's certainly true that the nature of the battle with Logain's forces was altered due to Covid, but I think the Kerene/Stepin stuff was written before a single scene in the show was filmed, and was filmed exactly as written.

I don't believe it was extended due to Covid any more than any other scene was.

Do we know if it affected Ep 4?  I assumed Ep 4 was disorganized and bad because Logain's army was a rag tag nothing.  There was plenty of room for critique, even if you knew where they were trying to aim.

Thought the only battle scenes messed up by COVID were the Ep 7 and 8 stuff.
 

12 minutes ago, Andra said:

Taking out the "significant bloodline" aspect of the story makes it a different story.  Changing which bloodline holds the significance ("Old Blood" =/= "Blood of Manetheren") makes it a different story.

 

Does it make it a different-enough story to matter?  WAFO.

But it IS different.

Agreed on WAFO.  ?

They didn't take it out?  The old blood is mentioned.  I've seen the posts claiming "The Old Blood is different from the Blood of Manetheren"  But I never had that feeling reading the books.  I googled it real fast and am finding several WoT discussions dating back years referring to the Old Blood as being the blood of Manethere.  In fact, the Karaethon Cycle says:

On the slopes of Dragonmount shall he be born,
born of a maiden wedded to no man.
He will be of the ancient blood, and raised by the old blood.
When the winds of Tarmon Gai'don scour the earth,
he will face the Shadow and bring forth Light again in the world.
For he shall come like the breaking dawn,
and shatter the world again with his coming, and make it anew.

So prophecy at least was referring to Manetheren as the old blood.

12 hours ago, Andra said:

But the Whitecloaks had responded to wolves trying to frighten their horses by physically attacking Elyas.  An attack that justified Perrin's response.

 

 

It's  ot both ways.  WC didn't respond to wolves by attacking Elyas.  Unless you think Elyas' actions were just to yell and make noise or something?  He attacked them in what I'm sure were not meant to be lethal,  but assault is assault and no matter intention, swinging a blade is using a lethal implement. 

12 hours ago, Andra said:

But even more, you're ignoring the actual ruling in the trial.

No, I'm not.  Morgase's ruling was based on the facts she had presented to her in the book.  Adding a bunch of extra details,  like that it was Perrin's side that initiated violence, might have changed her mind.

1 hour ago, Pukel-man said:

That's my point. The blood of Manetheren is foundational to all those things, but it was excluded from the show

But it wasn't excluded.  It just was brought up less than you personally felt it should have been. 

For me?  I'm a little tired if bloodline based heroes.  The idea that Mat or Perrin or Egwene are awesome because 2000 years ago their great great etc was from Manetheren is nonsense.   They're awesome because they chose to stand up and do what they did.

Can't imagine how changing things from super DNA to personal agency is a bad thing.

4 hours ago, Andra said:

Except that the Whitecloaks don't even remember that Elyas was even there.  Which means that, as far as their allegations are concerned, he didn't start anything.

 

Add Elyas' injury, and Perrin is reacting to protect a fellow human who the Whitecloaks had tried to kill.  Not to protect wolves.

Not really how it works.

Prosecutor: Mr. Elyas, you claim you received injuries from the White Cloaks, how did that happen?

Elyas: I wanted them to move on and pick a different camp so the wolves and I started attacking their horses and trying to frighten them.

As soon as it's brought up he's there the WC's can remember and bring up that THEY didn't start the fight.  At which point that becomes a factor.  You could cross examine and ask why that didn't come up, but they can pretty easily say "We didn't realize these two young people were connected to the wolves and man attacking us at the time it happened."  But now the defendant is clearly making that connection.

1 hour ago, Andra said:

Elyas was a human who was wounded by the Whitecloaks.  Given that the law Morgase applied to the case was the mercenary code, and that her primary reason to reject Perrin's "they hurt my friends" defense was that wolves aren't "people," his testimony would absolutely have been relevant.  We are told by the Whitecloaks that they didn't see any human other than Perrin attacking them.  Which means that by the same "initiated hostility" argument, injuring Elyas was a crime.  And justification for Perrin's actions.

 

There's no real reason not to have included his testimony.

I disagree, context is everything.

So long as the narrative is "Wolf attacked the WCs, WCs killed the wolves, I killed the WCs"  AND you judge wolves not people, then it's an open fight.

Applying real world law:

Senario 1: Person A enters a public space, they look dangerous, your dog attacks them, they kill the dog and you kill them in response.  There's some argument that you were retaliating trying to save your animal and took it too far.  You're probably at fault for the animal (bye insurance if you had it) but it might only end up as manslaughter.

Scenario 2: Person A enters a public space, they look dangerous, your friend who is with you deliberately starts a violent fight trying to seriously hurt Person A.  Your dog joins in and gets killed and you kill in return.  Now you're accessory to murder as the death directly resulted from the actions of a sentient person.

There is SO much more detail and context needed to get a uniform and real verdict here, but that's a VERY basic level of it.

The moment you bring in Elyas as the sentient person who STARTED the violence, the whole thing swings against Perrin.  Best case scenario is the exact same verdict, after that you run the gamut to accessory to murder to even maybe Perrin is not guilty but Elyas is...

 

38 minutes ago, Asthereal said:

Anyway, didn't happen. Elyas also didn't testify. Perrin's case was a lost one. Perhaps that was what Sanderson was going for in the first place, but it ended up being the worst part of ToM, sadly.

You wouldn't want Elyas to testify.

Again, motive and expectation of behavior are not facts.  The reality is the WCs came to the area and set up camp.  Elyas and the wolves initiated hostility in that encounter.

Having the person who committed assault and started an altercation testifying wouldn't have helped Perrin's case, it would have given more clear evidence that the WC's were attacked and defended themselves.

1 hour ago, Andra said:

Only in the Wolf Dream.

 

Aside from that, the last time they saw each other in person was in Tear, I believe.

They're not alone by any means, but they meet in the tent at Merrilor as well.

1 hour ago, Andra said:

The forces of the Light had enough problems just with normal politics.

Multiple Dragons would have pretty much guaranteed defeat.

 

  Reveal hidden contents

Which is sort of what actually happened in the War of Power, according to Rand via Lews Therin's memories.

 

Not counting all the stuff we don't see.  What would have happened with Latra had been fully on board with the sealing?  Maybe have found the weakness or a way around it?   Or if Lews had helped with the CK, would there have been a way to use them safely?

The blood of a place that was very cosmopolitan would not need a specific ethnic background.  It's referring to the blood of the people of Manetheren.  If they were not a singular ethnicity then their blood wouldn't be either.

If I were to speak of the blood of Phoenix in the same type of phrasing that would include caucasian, spanish, native america, hispanic...  And that's me just hitting generalities, there are people of most ethnicities here and they go back generations.

23 minutes ago, Skipp said:

Question;  Do you know why the eye was able to move around?  What allowed it to only be found once or by great need?  Maybe having pattern crucial items placed in a single spot caused the Wheel to weave around it?

I don't have answers for that, if someone does please share.  I always chalked it up as one of the early book weirdness things like not seeing how traveling works or the weird metaphysical nature of Ishamael and Rand's dual or the giant voice talking to Rand.

2 hours ago, Red Eagle said:

If you behave like a bandit, you get cut down like a bandit. A ruling like Morgase's means literally anyone can set themselves up as vigilantes wherever a ruler's guards-people are not, so resisting the demands of men who might do anything to unarmed captives becomes unlawful.

Not the case here.  Perrin could have resisted, and if they became violent wit him he could have defended himself.  What was deemed illegal was Perrin actively attacking and killing humans because those humans defended themselves against wild animals.

That's another distinction.  We know the WCs are problems.  But in the actual turn of events.  the WCs moved through an area, set up camp, Wolves and a Man attacked them.  They started to search the area and the wolves kept coming.  They found two young people and ordered them to come out and another wolf attacked them.  They defended themselves against the wolf and then Perrin raged and killed two of them.

The Wolves and then Perrin were the actual aggressors here.  To compare it to real life situation.  If you're at the mall say, and you see someone snooping around with a knife calling for people to leave the mall.  You could legally call the authorities, you could legally not answer them or hide or address them and try to de-escalate.  What you can't do is just up and them and kill them on the premise that you thought they might do harm later.

2 hours ago, Andra said:

You mean like the Eye of the World?

Oh wait - the Forsaken couldn't get into that, because the Green Man wouldn't have let them.

The green man didn't let them and they came anyway.  You could argue it was Mat's dagger that lead them there but allowing it to be found at all is a weakness.  As is sticking it in the blight.

1 hour ago, Andra said:

Which is why, given the circumstances, they would have been better off leaving it right where it was.

Or never having it such a ridiculous place to begin with.

They were convinced the city was lost. Leaving it there is a 100% bad choice.  Getting it out has a chance for a good result.

As for never having it there, maybe.  Mayne we could have left it in a super secret place that any forsaken could get into.

5 minutes ago, Mailman said:

For me it did not matter what race the Two rivers characters where as long as they are of a similar look across the region. As a very remote very insular community it would not make sense for them to be a big spread of looks. 

I would disagree.  Manetheren was cosmopolitan and only 2000 years prior.  AoL definately cosmopolitan and 3000 years total (1000 before Manetheren)  2000 years is roughly 60-100 generations eyeballing things.  That's not really enough time for true homogeny to set in.  Add in things like Tam coming back with an outland spouse and some ethnic diversity is bound to be.

22 minutes ago, Cauthonfan4 said:

I don't have time to dig into all the books right now, but frankly it doesn't matter. Diversifying the cast didn't bother me at all.

Fair enough, and I'm by no means trying to pin any of the darker connotations of these things on anyone.  If you end up finding quotes cool, if nothing else comes, cool as well.  But heaven knows we get into enough arguments over opinions, so wanted to see if we had harder source here.  ?

16 minutes ago, Cauthonfan4 said:

Except you know.

When they talk about two rivers folk being in awe of the exotic people with olive skin or dark complexion. Thus making it pretty obvious that the people of two rivers are lighter skinned than that. I would have pegged the 2 rivers as Mediterranean at darkest.

Quote of them being in awe of said complexion vs in awe of strange people with different cultures and clothing?

59 minutes ago, Pukel-man said:

(and all white in the books).

I'm aware this is likely bait, but taking it anyway.

No, there's no confirmation of specific skin tone in the books.  A great deal of talk about dark hair and eyes, but nothing on complexion.

This came up and was discussed at length over on Tor.com when the first casting announcements came.

In fact, the only time skin tone comes up at all in book one is when Elaida is doubting Rand's heritage during the audience with Morgase.

“…Two rivers people are dark of hair and eye, and they seldom have such height.” Her hand darted out to push back his coat sleeve, exposing lighter skin the sun had not reached so often. “Or such skin.”

Seems to me that not only is the actual complexion of the TR folk not discussed but the only time ANY skin tone discussion happens it's to say that Rand being caucasian is an oddity.

The only argument I really see is "Doesn't that make Rand stand out."  But he always did.  We didn't know the Dragon was born somewhere else at this point, that comes later.  And Nynaeve confirms that Tam came back from the war with an outlander wife and a son.  So literally everyone knows Rand isn't TR blood, or rather think he's half.

3 hours ago, Asthereal said:

But I can see why the trial bit angers people. And you're not the only one. Awesome YouTuber Daniel Greene also hated that bit. I think this is mainly because for us readers, Perrin should not feel guilt over these killings, and the fact that he does isn't told well enough to convince us otherwise. The result is us rooting for Perrin to choose to completely destroy the Whitecloaks instead of agreeing to the trial, which we knew was going to go badly for him, as he has no witnesses.

Quoting you because this bit is good, not cause I'm debating you.  ?

The other factor to keep in mind, and Red Eagle does it in this thread, is that many people look at this from a moral or ethical perspective, not a legal one.

From a moral perspective, we as readers know the wolves are sentient, we know the WCs are bad people for the most part and so it's no doubt that Perrin is justified in what he did.  }

But that's not the same as legal justification.  It's like my cooper and tax collector story.  As a reader I think most of us would side with the cooper.  But from a legal perspective if you start forgiving actual crimes because the circumstances make them sympathetic then you open a door for things to get more and more gray and more and more crimes being allowed.

Law can't be perfectly just or even perfectly fair, it has to be held equally against all parties no matter what.

14 hours ago, Andra said:

I believe the Seanchan thing was about both getting them off the continent (they were supposed to have been shipped off as soon as feasible) and gaining the use of their strength - without having to go through the trouble of actually turning them.

Slap collars on them, and put them through the soul-breaking training, and who needs 13 Myrddraal?

I'd say Andra's approach is the right one.

There is also an alternate answer that fits too.  Stupidity, vanity and pettiness.  It's possible that Liandrin's orders were something as blank as "remove these three as pieces on the board" with the intention being to turn or kill them but Liandrin decided it would be "better" to give them to the Seanchan.

It could also be a conflicting orders thing (We see that Slayer gets told to go in multiple directions frequently).  Maybe Mesanna orders their elimination as threats meaning death, and then a day later we get the DF Social and Ba'al orders them kept alive and work on making them tools.  Now Liandrin's in a bind because two very powerful leaders have ordered opposing paths.  Bringing them to the Seanchan is a loophole.

13 minutes ago, Andra said:

Christ, I am not just talking about "general handling of stressful situations."

But you're right that we're not having the same conversation.  

But all your examples are general handling of stress.  You even invoked her upbringing in the borderlands as something that would help her with those skills.  Unless she was combat channeling BEFORE she went to the Tower, no, they wouldn't.
 

13 minutes ago, Andra said:

My example of the three of them simply pointed out that Tower training/Accepted testing (which Amalisa had), plus personal experience with danger and fighting (which Amalisa had), can result in precisely the same kind of ability you said Amalisa wouldn't have had.

You cited the test for accepted as proof of channeling in dangerous situations and being able to handle combat channeling.  The Test for Accepted technically is supposed to prevent you knowing you can channel, has no guarantee of any specific scenario, and was considered something a person could handle with ZERO channeling training and be fine.  So given that that's the only level that Amalisa is suggested to have reached, no, she was not trained for combat channeling and nothing suggests she was.

Side note: Your example is largely Egwene, who at that point had been forced and trained by the Seanchan on top of having become an accepted and having MORE training after the arches.  Elayne was in a similar boat but weaker.  Nynaeve used a weave that ended the fight immediately and that Amalisa most definately does not know.  Without Balefire, the dead burning Fades would continue fighting.  As I recall dealing with a fade without something to disintegrate them involves cutting them into little pieces.

Fun side note, we se first hand what training in using an implement and then being forced into combat with no actual combat training can lead to horrific mistakes (Laila?)
 

13 minutes ago, Andra said:

At no point did I say that any of them had received actual combat training in the Tower.

My original point was that an inexperienced person channeling into friendlies was a bad idea.  (like handing a teenager a rifle and telling them to only hit enemy targets in a melee).   

If your argument isn't that the Tower trained Novices for combat upto and before the accepted Test, I'm not sure what bringing up Amalisa having a ring accomplishes.

 

12 minutes ago, Andra said:

I'm not saying that novice training gave her meaningful combat readiness.  I'm saying that it trained her to deal with stress while channeling.  Her experience growing up in Fal Dara and living through trolloc raids would have done even more.

Skills don't really translate like that, being cool under pressure doesn't mean you can aim at moving targets better or around people you need to not hit.  Again, the only channeling we've seen her do was in a wide open field with no concern for the devastation unleashed.

I specifically brought up the comparison of firing on stationary (ish in the case of the Trollocs coming straight at you.) targets without concern for collateral vs picking moving targets while avoiding friendlies.  In response you're discussing general handling of stressful situations which is not the same animal or conversation.
 

15 minutes ago, Andra said:

And while Elayne and Nynaeve hadn't had combat training in the Tower prior to Accepted testing, we know that their experiences (whether in the Tower or outside it) allowed them to handle combat situations - even indoors and surrounded by "friendlies" - when they encountered them.

Elayne had had one sorta combat situation against the Seanchan.  Before Nynaeve's test she had.   Stood still, unable to grasp the source, while Aginor and Balthamael knocked her out.  She had no combat or channeling training at all.
 

16 minutes ago, Andra said:

After being kidnapped on the way to Tear, they destroyed three Fades in a room that were surrounded by Aiel.  Who were fighting both the Fades and the humans that had kidnapped them.

Without harming any of the Aiel.  And would have even if Nynaeve hadn't used Balefire on them.

Happened after the accepted tests and after Egwene had been forced to strength.  Not relevant to the discussion.   
 

3 minutes ago, Asthereal said:

I specifically remember Egwene signing the treaty. Could be remembering wrong though...

You are corrected, I had forgotten her signing since Rand had said the White Tower was exempt from the non-interference clause.

That said, At the time of the treaty no reliable leader existed to sign.  It's very possible Logain would sign after the fact, but we don't find out.

The problem here is the Orders are coming from Ba'al, and until the very end of book 3, he doesn't want Rand and company dead, he wants them turned.  Because realistically it takes Rand or someone similar ripping open the DO's seal and letting him free to win,

As for the BA, the oaths are all around not betraying the shadow (interpretations are fun) and selfishness.  And you can lie.  Verin can easily say she never got the chance, Mat was always watching, or Hurin and her oath to keep the BA secret meant she couldn't be overt.   It's flimsy, but it's the type of thing that would be believed if you think EVERYONE is out for themselves only.

44 minutes ago, Andra said:

That depends - did you have to go through the same kind of intense training we know is required to earn that Ring?  Including passing the extremely stressful testing to be raised Accepted?  She didn't get it by doing nothing but the equivalent of hitting stationary targets at a range.

That depends?  Specifically with a bow?  No.  With a Rifle, handgun and humorously and uselessly enough a sword?  Yes.

The accepted test forces stress, it doesn't force combat readiness and training.  In fact the books specifically talk about Accepted and Novices NOT being combat trained and hence why all the accepted were relegated to being batteries for yellows in the last battle.  We also don't know that she passed the test for Accepted, she might have a ring the same reason Morgase has one.  We don't know, but it is a consideration.
 

46 minutes ago, Andra said:

Yes, I'm using book knowledge to explain something the show doesn't.  But you're doing the opposite - denying book knowledge when the show doesn't.  Unless and until the show says otherwise, the background info should be what the books say it is.  And from what the books tell us, she would have been far better used helping get the Horn to safety than burning thousands of Shadowspawn on a battlefield.

I'm not sure how you're getting my stance opposite.  I'm firmly in the boat that unless the show actively changes something the book is valid (IE Linking clearly doesn't protect from burning out anymore and healing doesn't require physical contact).

But you're confusing general stress and difficulty with specific training in a specialized manner.  If she had made the test for the Shawl and failed due to strength, I'd be on board with you saying she's fully combat ready.  But all we know is that she probably passed the Arches, and that doesn't require combat training.  Elayne and Nynaeve certainly had none and passed in the books.