I distinctly remember Sanderson saying he thought it was important to show Perrin as a berserker.  It was a video interview, not a reddit post.  Will see if I can find it.

It also explores that the whole thing was a bigger discussion that just "Wife, No Luhhan, No Wife."  There was a middle ground with instead of Master Luhhan as the village smith it was Perrin's mother and that's who he takes out in error.

All and all it's not really an issue as the context is key here and I wasn't saying "Oh Mr Sanderson is the sole authority and insisted on this."  The comment was in response to someone saying Perrin didn't rage, he just oopsed and I was pointing out that it read as raging to me and that Sanderson commented on it being such and that he was there supporting the idea, just with a different victim.

52 minutes ago, VooDooNut said:

I think the MCU is a good example of how to do this (mostly) right.

Off topic but I love that the MCU manages to look like this fully interconnected thing, but in reality each film is usually stand alone with a dozen easter eggs and then they develop based on what does well or doesn't.

There's a whole page of examples of original MCU plans that were scrapped as new ideas got traction.  One really big one that comes to mind is that the original Avengers was supposed to be Tony, Steve and Thor vs Banner as the villain.  The end of Norton's Hulk was even set with Tony coming in as a representative of the Avenger Initiative to offer to handle the Hulk.   But then Tom Hiddleston was a smash success and they decided to go a different way.

 

2 hours ago, Deviations said:

And that is my real point (sarcastically made).  They didn't need to advance his arc.  They didn't do anything with his story in season one anyhow.  Why advance his internal struggle?

They're writing the project as a complete work, not a season as a time.  Perrin stuff is likely to pay off in season 2.  Not to mention his stuff at the end of Season 1 was a reshuffle due to the Mat stuff.

To keep it on topic for comparison, the argument is like claiming that what's the point of focusing on Sansa?  She doesn't really do anything in season 1.

But your statement is incorrect anyway.  They did do things with his story in Season 1.  He has his violence is frightening moment, then his interaction and encounters with the tuatha where the leaf starts appealing, then the wolf in him awakening.   He has progression.

2 hours ago, Deviations said:

1.   Perrin wasn't a berserker in ep 1.  He swung his axe and accidently hit his wife with it.

He was progressively getting more and more savage, impulsive, not checking his surroundings just going after the trollocs.  He swung his axe because he heard a sound and spun with a full force swing without looking.  Your opinion is fine on rather or not you took it as rage, I did, Sanderson clearly states he did since Sanderson is who fought for that scene in general.
 

2 hours ago, Deviations said:

2.  Laila is MENTIONED in the books as someone he may have married if things turned out differently.  She wasn't a developed character.  She was mentioned in passing.

Your point?  I didn't say she was super important, just that she's in the books and Perrin says he would have married her.  She's got about as much development in the series as the books (in a different direction obviously).
 

2 hours ago, Deviations said:

3.  They didn't need to give Perrin stronger motivation to mope around.  He didn't do anything in season one anyhow.... 

Yes, your opinion is that it was bad, we understand that.  There's a difference between a discussion of "This was the point the show was going for and these are the facts behind this decision" and rather or not you like something.

I don't particularly like the Laila angle, I approve of the scene in general but am with Sanderson on that we should have established Master Luhhan and had him kill or severely injure him.  It was not the best choice for that scene.  But that doesn't change that there is logic in what they were doing and reasons for it.

11 minutes ago, William Seahill said:

Thank you.  And thank goodness Randland isn’t at all like the Seven Kingdoms. 

I think there's a valuable place for both types of story.

Sometimes I want to understand how bleak things were and see that people struggle against overwhelming odds and can't find a way out the other side.  Not to mention there's some level of satisfaction in watching the deck be stacked against Sansa or Arya and see them win.

BUT, most of the times I want to believe that no matter what, the good guys will win, the bad guys will lose and even if some of the heroes fall, the world is going to be better.

It's the difference between watching, say, the Last Samurai KNOWING every one of our heroes will die, vs watching, say, Rise of the Guardians and hearing that epicly triumphant music as the Sand Man returns and the good guys win with no casualties or regrets.

On 2/25/2022 at 8:37 AM, William Seahill said:

Case in point: Perrin accidentally kills his wife in episode one.  That’s not in the book, he’s not even married. Amazon made up a character for the show just to kill her off.  

Just want to point out.  Perrin being a berserker if not careful Is in the books.  Him killing someone early on that he did NOT want to kill is a stronger motivator for the Axe Hammer debate than him killing two white cloaks he didn't care about.  

And lastly, they didn't make up a character, Laila is in the series.  Perrin thinks that he would have married her if he had stayed in the Two Rivers.

As for what WoT has that GoT doesn't.  Less bleakness.

GoT shows a realistic medieval world.  Women are treated like commodities and property, people with power and no restraint or morality win and even an apocalypse isn't enough for the scummy people to stop being scummy.

WoT for all the flaws in people shows a world that is hopeful.  That no matter how much things beat us down, no matter how vast and terrifying the darkness is, we can keep pushing forward and come out the other end.

Just as a quick aside of an issue I'm seeing on both sides of the debate.

Proper debate form means you state your opinion and stance firmly, that you present it as solidly as possible, and at no point is there some weird expectation that you must say IMO at the end of every sentence.

Similarly, just because someone disagrees with you does not mean they are doing so with some ulterior motive.  It's entirely possible to have disagreeing opinions without one side being a shill, or paid rep or being domatic, etc.

Andra is not being dogmatic.  I clearly disagree with them on a great many points, but while there's been certain aspects I've had issue with, by and large they're just debating their point.

Same on my side for example, I clearly like the show, and argue my points as solidly as I can.  I'm also sure I've made errors, but again, not being dishonest or fake either.   

I could go through every poster on each side.  There's a few who've clearly just moved from honest debate to sarcasm and writing off.  But the people still honestly arguing the point are fine.  Even if they're wrong (I'm joking on that last point, borrowing a line from Sanderson)

Because plot?

Honestly, he just wasn't seen as important or a threat for a long time.  Book 1 Ishie went after all three because he didn't know which one was the Dragon.  Once he found out he focused on Rand exclusively while just ordering various DFs to kill the other two.

Beyond the simple answer there.  Mat had the corrupting influence of Shadar Logoth in book 2 which might have interfered with the DO's touch.  After that he was seen as a non-issue until he disappeared from Tar Valon and then the people who could have found him in the dream (Lanfear, Graendal, Moghedien) were busy with their own stuff and didn't follow him.

Then in book 4 he gets the medallion and that's that.

3 minutes ago, Andra said:

Also, I don't believe it's accurate to say Nynaeve wasn't at her full strength by then.  She hadn't learned the kind of control that she eventually does, but given her age there's no reason to believe she had any meaningful increase in raw power still to reach.

I have no firm stats on what her strength is at where but we know she's not even at her full power in the series.

From the official companion's strength levels we know Nynaeve at present is equal to Moghedien (Level 4/+9).  But Nynaeve's full potential is a step above that (5/+10).  If we know she's still growing even at the end of the series then it's possible she's on a sliding scale throughout the series vs a consistent strength level.

(link for the power chat https://www.tor.com/2015/10/27/the-wheel-of-time-companion-strength-chart-of-major-channelers/ )

I do feel like we saw some Balefires that weren't noticeable, but I also don't have TDR in front of me to check.  Was there any definitive result to Belial's BF by Moraine or Rand's against the randoms he fights?  

On 1/8/2022 at 6:17 PM, Andra said:

While Nynaeve almost certainly uses Balefire (Egwene guessed that's what it was) it's odd that it didn't have the normal "rewind" effect.  The Aiel that had just been killed, including the Maiden she had previously Healed, stayed dead.

Know this is a bit older, but felt was worth answering.  ?  Balefire only rewinds a few seconds when it's not being channeled at significant strength.  Rand's level base balefire rewinds a few seconds, a minute at most.  Moraine's barely does a second Nynaeve at book 3 isn't at her full strength, she hasn't been forced like Egwene.  So who knows exactly where her her rewind dial is at exactly.

7 hours ago, Red Eagle said:

Not that his "Inner Righteousness" would apparently be so awesomely inspiring as to turn an organization of mass-murdering terrorists into Shining Warriors of Good. 

But they're not an organization of Mass Murdering terrorists.

They're an organization with a fairly benevolent and good ideal that has gone terribly wrong thanks to misunderstanding, fear and individually bad leaders.

The issue here is that there's really no such thing as "evil" people, it's always a choice and almost anyone COULD come back in the right circumstances.  It's hard (hence we only see one real converted DF in the whole series) but it's possible.

Also, Galad's lesson isn't to realize the world isn't black and white, it's to realize that not everyone can find that line as easily as he can and he shouldn't think less of them for not being on his level.

Honestly.  I fear we see the end of channeling in the 4th Age.

We know from Aviendha's dark vision that Rifles are coming.  While individual channelers can put on massive displays of power, rifles in the hands of anti channelers is a deathknell for it.

Plus we know that somehow channeling has to disappear from knowledge before the wheel gets around to us again.

6 hours ago, AdamA said:

I don't think Rand would have trouble proving he's still Rand if he decided to come back. Aside from the memories only he can have, he still has the warder bonds, and I would expect the three ladies to become extremely well-respected people that others would generally believe if they say the guy claiming to be Rand really is. There is still the question of that bond, too. Aviendha and Elayne are likely to outlive him since they can still channel, but Min has a pretty good chance of dying first. Is he going to go into a berserker rage when she dies? Just randomly start killing whoever is near him at some Sharan port halfway around the world when he's off on some Rand Farherder adventure?

 

His not being able to channel any more bugs me, too. If channeling is supposed to be a property of the soul, it doesn't make sense. Does this mean all future dragons won't be able to channel now? He wasn't shielded or gentled. The ability was just gone.

Regardless of how the bond was formed, I don't think Min bonded Rand, I think the Ladies bonded Min and Rand and somehow roped her to him instead of themselves.  She can't mask the bond or do any of the Aes Sedai side of the bond tricks.

So I imagine when she dies it'll be like a sister losing a warder and he'll hurt for a good long time but eventually calm down.

As for his not being able to channel, I don't think that's what happened.  I think he's just instinctively weaving the entire pattern and so is no longer using just Saidin and further, no longer has to embrace the source.

Remember, his future kids with Aviendha perpetually touch the source all the time.  Seems like a combination of his new nature with a regular channeler.

17 hours ago, Andra said:

So it's not what had actually happened, but what they were afraid of that mattered?

 

I thought Perrins actions were unjustified only because they hadn't *actually* hurt him or any other human?  Neither had Elyas.

Already discussed this.

Scenario A: A man with an actual weapon is swinging it at you and your animals in what is a credible threat.  So you fight back and hurt the person who withdraws.

Scenario B: A man with a weapon is asking you to come out of hiding and saying they will not hurt you.  Then one of your animals vicious assaults them and they defend themselves.    THEN you go berserk and murder them.

Perrin's fear is not the same as the WC's fear without our out of world knowledge as readers.
 

17 hours ago, Andra said:

Sorry, but that's simply false.  By the time of the trial, there are multiple possible witnesses who can confirm that Perrin can communicate with the wolves, and receive accurate information from them.

 

The Whitecloaks acknowledged that, but insisted it proved he was a darkfriend.

No, there are multiple possible witnesses who see him command wolves and get general locations of people or creatures from them.  That is NOT the same thing as the wolves are sentient beings, hence why Perrin killing in defense of Hopper is not a valid defense in Morgase's eyes.
 

18 hours ago, Andra said:

Neither of those two things is true.

Morgase made clear before agreeing to act as judge that she could not take his side, nor that she would avoid any potential conviction if the facts warranted it.  Literally nothing she said indicated any preference for his side of the case at all.

Vowing to be impartial doesn't change your allegiances or views.  No single person is ever truly impartial.  There's a reason why we rely on Juries, not Judges, to pass guilt or innocence.  Morgase can have every intention of being fair while still being loyal to Perrin and not wanting him dead because she feels he's too valuable to the cause of the light.  The two aren't incompatible.

Her preference is set by the fact that she is part of his camp, working with his army and wants to see the light win Tarmon Gaiden.  Again, if we wanted to play real life court, she has such a massive conflict of interest that she'd never be allowed to sit on the case.
 

19 hours ago, Andra said:

But again, all of this is just noise.

 

The story needed Perrin to have his fate decided by Galad.  Which wouldn't have been the case if he had been acquitted.  So the story ignored potential exonerating evidence to achieve that goal.

That's a write off answer for everything but the discussion in general focuses on in universe activity.

It's like giving honest critique to Mat's departure in the show.  Yes, it's all noise cause the reality is, the actor left and they had no choice but to write him absent.  But when we discuss it we try to talk through various ways it could go, the ramifications of the Red being involved, etc, etc.  Because we're discussing the actual story, not the rationale behind it.

5 minutes ago, notpropaganda73 said:

The job was done, as he sees it, now he gets to be selfish. 

There's nothing wrong with this, and I could see it in Mat maybe?

But Rand, for better or worse, is a hero.  It's like looking at the MCU Trajectory of Steve Rogers.  He is always the hero up until Civil War where he finally decides he's going to be selfish and screw doing the right thing to do the thing he wants and finds valuable.  Which lasts until Infinity War then he drops right back into being the hero even while catching problems from it.  (Don't know if we can discuss the end since I'm pretty sure his "selfish" path is just him creating an alt timeline and things working out differently before he brings the shield back to Sam)

1 minute ago, Andra said:

Ummmm ...

What?

 

His people spent months flying the banner even while he kept yelling at them to take it down.  The idea that they weren't "concerned" about it is ludicrous.  He didn't ever casually barter it away publicly.

He swore to never raise the name Manetheren to the Seanchan in view of a dozen or more witnesses who would have had no reason to keep quiet about it (And in Alliandre's place, plenty of reason to make sure it was heard).

He did so without concern or pause, just a "Here's a sweetener to our deal, I will revoke all claim to Manetheren and give you the Red Eagle Banner."

16 minutes ago, Andra said:

You mean aside from adopting that specific banner as their own?

Flying that banner has an affect, but if their heritage was that important to them they wouldn't let Perrin casually barter it away, which he does, publicly and without any concern what so ever.

2 minutes ago, Andra said:

It doesn't really matter if that pride was Moiraine's intent.  But it was certainly its result.  Their blood, their heritage, their pride.  And it was specifically the connection to Manetheren that they now felt tied to.  Not just to some nebulous "Old Blood."

Thank you for the correction on Alanna vs Verin and where the Red Eagle came from.  ?

For the rest, I don't disagree with anything you said until the end.

And I don't disagree so much as don't agree it means what you suggest.  The TR was proud of their heritage by that point, no argument.  But I never once saw them present themselves as blood of manetheren, they were still the Two Rivers.  The references to old blood were always using the term "The old blood is strong" or some such and it was always someone ELSE describing the TR.  The TR people are strong because they choose to stand up and be strong, not because of their blood.  Other people use that as a cop out, a talk off to give some reason for how the TR behaves that doesn't show their own inadequacy for not raising to the same standard.  

Can you point to one Two Rivers person who leans back on the old blood for anything other than maybe explaining spouting the old tongue for no reason?

27 minutes ago, Andra said:

No.  "WE" know Elyas wasn't using deadly force against humans because the book tells us he wasn't.  Because he didn't hurt any humans.  All he and the wolves were doing was frightening horses.  As you stated earlier.

We as readers with outside context.  The WCs don't know he was only targeting horse, nor that he had no intent to hurt.  He was a scary wolf person swinging knives at them.
 

27 minutes ago, Andra said:

The proof of that fact at the trial would be that no Whitecloaks were injured except the ones Perrin killed.  A fact the Whitecloaks themselves acknowledged.

If that were the case, there'd never be any trials for attempted anything.  They don't know he wasn't trying to hurt them, only that he didn't succeed on hurting them.  It's his word as the only actual proof of his intent.
 

27 minutes ago, Andra said:

Nothing in the trial established that the wolf bond was "hearsay."  Other humans could have been called as witnesses to its veracity.

That he has wolf powers and can command them isn't really up for debate.  That they're sentient and think coherently like humans do and can offer meaningful testimony is absolutely in debate for the people in the world.  Even Faile doesn't fully buy into it for most the series.
 

27 minutes ago, Andra said:

It's odd that you keep trying to say the Whitecloaks were allowed to respond with deadly force to merely being frightened, but Perrin had to actually see the Whitecloaks trying to kill Elyas in order to be allowed to do the same himself.

You are unfortunately conflating two concepts.  Perrin, to claim self defense resulting in lethal force would be required to actually understand and know of a real threat to his life.  The only way he has that is through the wolf bond to know Elyas was hurt, or through his knowledge that the wolves are sentient and hurt.  Neither of those are provable in the context of the trial so for him to argue self defense there needed to be a credible threat to his life, not just "I felt afraid" but that there was a valid chance of his life being lost.

The other way around is not the same.  Elyas took weapons and used them.  He presented an actual lethal threat that the WCs witnessed and responded to.  Again, if you swing a knife at me that is a lethal weapon being used as a credible threat.  Your intent is not something I can 100% know at the time and I can respond with self defense.  

Perrin Scenario: My psychic powers tell me Person B's friends hurt my friend and then killed my animal companion, so I murdered them.

WC vs Elyas Scenario: I witnessed a man with glowing eyes leap out with a knife and slash at my men and horses and so we responded with force.

 

25 minutes ago, Andra said:

Again, her decision was based specifically on the fact that the Whitecloaks had no authority where the incident occurred.  No new details could have changed that decision unless they changed whether the Whitecloaks had authority there.  Unless they had been granted such authority from the Queen of Andor, they didn't have it.  And since she was the Queen of Andor at the time, she knew that hadn't happened.

Her decision is that she was on Perrin's side and wanted to find any solution that wouldn't involve the WC's killing him.  But at the same time she had a duty to fullfill her role as judge accurately and not ignore facts to find him innocent.  

Galad's response even shows that it's taking some mental gymnastics to get to the logic Morgase sees.

9 minutes ago, Juan Farstrider said:

The idea of a possible world (said in the logician/philosophy way) where the Do wins is something I think about, not so much in WoT but here. I actually think about what if Lanfear won more, because she's really playing to win. 

I'll have to look for these ideas on a reread when ever I get to that. 

Lanfear I still ponder.  I don't know if he was just trolling or not, but I went to a Sanderson Panel in 2015.  He said that Lanfear had multiple plots going including one that No one had figured out at the time of the panel.

Now I faded away from the community around that time until this last year, so maybe he revealed more or maybe someone figured it out.  But for me, at least, I still keep looking at Lanfear and trying to figure out her extra angle.

I figured she tried to throw in with Rand, that failed so she tried to set it up to sweep in and save the DO.  But if there's even more to her plotting...

1 hour ago, Juan Farstrider said:

Interesting. I find Fain sort of analogous to Lanfear in that he ends up being an independent player in some ways. Lanfear is indie, not serving the DO but playing the game and playing both Rand/Lews and the Forsaken to win it all in the end. 

I'd say that's absolutely fair rather my pet theory is right or wrong on Fain, he's doing his own thing and isn't really concerned over the DO or Rand winning.

But my thought was if this repeated ad infinitum both in cyclical time and in the multiverse.  And if you put something to a series of infinity then it's possible on some level, that means there HAS to be versions where the DO completely wins and breaks free, or versions where Rand actually kills it.

So what happens there? 

If Rand kills the DO maybe Fain fills that now empty prison where in Mashadar/Mordeth just continues to grow and strengthen until the next bore is made.

If the DO actually breaks free maybe Fain collides much like the Cleansing and whichever side wins is weak enough that everyone else can force them back into the prison.

4 minutes ago, Juan Farstrider said:

Yes, but I'm just used to ideas I like being shot down. 

Know that feeling.  I still like my theory that Fain was a failsafe that ended up unused and unneeded, but most don't like it.

1 minute ago, Juan Farstrider said:

Wow, they are so much more easily lead/mislead than I would have believed. I would have thought something was awakening within them, not that they were being manipulated. I shudder to think you're right.

The goal and the result can be good regardless of the intent, though yeah it does put a different spin.

I think Moraine's intent was simply to get them to calm and disperse without her or Lan having to hurt anyone.  That it might have sparked more is cool but I don't think it was her goal.

Similar with Verin.  The people wanted a symbol, or she made them think they wanted one, and just offered the Wolf and the Red Eagle.  Her goal was to put Perrin as a leader and see where that drug him.  But it resulted in essentially a new kingdom being founded and that was the doing of the people, not her.

3 minutes ago, Juan Farstrider said:

Wow, I like this explaination (as I brace for someone who read the books a thousand times coming in and slapping the idea down lol ;^) )

I could be wrong but I think this, or some variant there in is the general theory?  (at least back in the land of the re-read on Tor).

Rand stepped outside the pattern, wove the threads, understood the nature of reality in a way only gods do.  It makes senses that he can keep doing that from inside.

Also, if Aviendha isn't pregnant yet, this could explain why her kids are perpetually holding the source.  Something in his new nature changed how his children were.

Interesting take, but I don't think so.  I get the feeling Rand doing what he did is what he always does (He being the Dragon in general).

Herid Fel talks about it in universe.  At one point the power and knowledge of the DO doesn't exist.  Then someone discovers the power.  Then someone makes the bore.  Then the bore is patched, etc.  But eventually we have to come circle to the bore not existing at all in order to drill it again.

I also get the feeling they don't drill the bore in exactly the same place.  In AMoL Demandred's and Taim's full on reckless Balefiring begins the pattern unraveling there and Egwene sacrifices herself with that reverse Balefire weave that is described essentially as scabbing over the wound, sealing it so it could heal but not actually healing it the way Rand does the bore.

I interpreted that as meaning when this all comes full circle the bore will be drilled right there, because now that is the weakest point in the pattern instead of Shayul Ghul.