17 minutes ago, Truthteller said:

The first season of the TV show, on the other hand, undermines every major theme and plot event to come.  

Explain please?  See, it's arguments like this that lose me when there's no given explanation of what plots are undermined and how.

1 hour ago, Truthteller said:

That so many of the defenders of the series are unwilling to acknowledge that significant changes have been made at all suggests to me that the disagreement has as much to do with what the books are about as it does with the series.

Can you show actual examples of people unwilling to acknowledge significant changes?

Because last I checked, the issue is more that the changes are not seen a significant because they don't actually affect that narrative as a whole.  That's an entirely different argument.  I'm sure it can be twisted to the same, but it's not.

3 minutes ago, MColson said:

No one needed to channel to open the Ways.

I think those who have forgotten the books will be better able to deal with the changes.

It's not a matter of "Having forgotten the books."  I immediately noted and wondered why that was changed, wondered how it affects Perrin's return to the Two Rivers and... Realized other than that issue it has no impact what so ever on the narrative.

16 minutes ago, Raal Gurniss said:

…Tertiary, secondary or even primary characters can be removed, rewritten, replaced or made utterly redundant..

Could, but have higher costs in terms of what has to be re-done.  Again, removing Aginor from the story changes... Absolutely nothing, he never matters.  Removing Perrin from the story means finding new solutions to deal with the Two Rivers, the Shaido and Slayer.

That's the thing, it's not "Could you take out X"  it's "What has to change if X is removed"  And the answer for characters like Aginor, Balthamael and Greenman is "Nothing changes"
 

18 minutes ago, Raal Gurniss said:

Why not get rid of Perrin entirely? He served near zero point during the entire season anyway, no need for the secondary or tertiary characters for that subsection of the story then..

 

Get rid of Mat for the same reason.

Because they're significant parts of the story who do very large things and removing them means rewriting a bunch of stuff.
 

19 minutes ago, Raal Gurniss said:

Same can be said for all the characters regardless of their position…Even Moraine and Rand can be written out pretty easily…Don’t rely on the books story for what will occur, safe to say that they intended to part ways rather early on.

Nothing supports that though.  Every interview I saw with Rafe or Brandon that talked about changes said that a lot of changes happen early on because the early books are a little more... not WoT to be perfectly honest.  You can't build an ensemble where characters will eventually be important, so you need changes to give more to Mat, Perin, Egwene and Nynaeve from the get go.  You need something for Moraine to be doing throughout book 2.  We'll need stuff for Rand to do during book 3.

There's no evidence that they're parting ways from the books, there's no changes that don't fit nicely into the existing narrative.

The rest of your post is hyperbole based on your fears, not on anything that's actually been suggested.


 

2 hours ago, fra85uk said:

If i ever would need a lawyer,  I would ask your assistance ? You defend a guilty show better than the lawyers who defended Berlusconi for his "gallant dinners"".

Are you that unwilling to chat in good faith, childish insults don't help anyone.  
 

2 hours ago, Raal Gurniss said:

I still maintain that by your logic even the primary characters could be removed or replaced and it wouldn’t make a noticeable difference.

 

I mean many of the primary characters so far have done nothing or had their roles replaced by others and had it made clear that they are redundant.

I mean this honestly.  Do you really not understand the distinction between a supurfluous character and someone with actual narrative purpose?  I'll try and explain with two characters who were removed.

Elyas:  Elyas is there to ease Perrin into the Wolf Brother and explain what it is and what's going on.  By removing him Perrin is genuinely confused by what's going on and so is the audience.  We will have to find some new way to explain things to Perrin, either via added exploration or by having someone else explain it.  The narrative need of Elyas exists and has to be filled somehow.

Aginor:  Aginor is there because...  why?  He serves no purpose, he does nothing.  Rand murders him almost casually and then focuses on the real fight which is between him and Ishamael.  If you remove Aginor...  Nothing changes, Ishamael is still there, a threat still exists and Rand still has to use the eye to fight him.

Can you genuinely not understand the difference here between the two characters?

9 minutes ago, Raal Gurniss said:

…..But you could say that about everyone in the show.

Not really.  But you could say it about many secondary characters and that's kind of my point.

The Greenman gives info dump, then dies, he never does anything except kill Balthamael.

Balthamael, shows up, stands around being scary and dies.  Only Aran'gar is important and THAT role could be given to Graendal.

Aginor, Shows up, taunts Rand, Dies.  Comes back as Osan'gar and... Stands around existing before joining an attack with others and then dying.  

None of these three actually DOES anything in the narrative itself.

Where as, if you were to cut, say, Thom.  Alright, now we need to fill the gaps of the person who's going to provide some world knowledge to Rand and Mat after their separation, then be Mat's companion on the path to Tear, then be the world weary and skilled person as well as the non-channeler foil to Elayne and Nynaeve, etc.  He actively DOES things in the plot.  Removing him means you have to actually adjust for things.

So far the only character they've completely dropped that actually DID anything was Elyas, and if the idea of him being combined with Hurin is accurate then that's been solved for.

7 hours ago, Starganderfish said:

No Aginor or Belthamel? No Green Man? No actual Eye of the World or any of the story beats that go along with it?

What, exactly, do those three characters add to the narrative as a whole?  They infodump and die.  They serve no purpose.

7 hours ago, Starganderfish said:

Looks like Loial is dead, Moraine is stilled and Rand is going off solo. 

Rand's jump starting his book 3 plot.  As for Loial dead and Moraine "stilled"  Even discounting that there's nothing to show she's stilled vs shielded...  Did you... Did you think Mat was dead when the wall fell on him in Ebou Dar and then he didn't show up for a book?  Cause that type of cliffhanger isn't new or evidence someone died.
 

11 hours ago, RextheDog said:

Moiraine and Lan are not the main characters of the books......if thats an issue for actors egos/budgets, then look squarely at casting...

That's not an Ego/Budget issue (Though that can be part of it).  Let's posit what the pay/schedule would look like if, say, Mat and Agelmar were kept completely the same.

Mat: Alright, we need you to commit for 8-10 years of filming, you can't really take other jobs because you'll be so busy with this.  By the way, for the first 2-3 years we're going to barely pay you and your job as an actor is to stand around aimlessly and occasionally throw in a line or so.  But don't worry, after that you'll be a real character with depth and interesting things and we'll start paying you better.

Agelmar: Alright, so we need you to do this job for a few episodes.  Then we need you to make sure your schedule is free enough that in 8-10 years you can come back and do a few more episodes.   Also, when that time comes you have to be able to look pretty much exactly like you do now as in theory at best 3 years have past and people won't have been able to grow with you across the series so any big change will be really jarring.
 

7 hours ago, JeffTheWoodlandElf said:

Kind of begs the question of why Ishamael didn't just still her though, doesn't it? He obviously could have. This whole situation just seems like a massive contrivance. 

The Forsaken are bound, this is tricking Rand to break the first seal releasing them.  Ishamael was partly bound but sort of free, perhaps only able to weave spirit, similar to the rules on Channeling in the real world while asleep.  So perhaps Shielding takes only Spirit but Severing takes more.  

And before we get to the vague accusations that I'm doing mental gymnastics, no, again, this is what I assumed within a few seconds of seeing the scene.

He never moves off the seal, Never steps away or dodges.  I really think he's just manifesting at the edge of the Prison and taunting Rand into breaking the seal.

12 hours ago, ilovezam said:

Rand successfully channels after receiving this advice. If he actually did the opposite, the show should have conveyed it. But why would he?

Yeah, who gave him that advice?  and no, they wouldn't show, because we're not info dumping on the power yet.
 

12 hours ago, ilovezam said:

He asks Moiraine for help instead of being a misogynistic (badword). Turning a good man bad is unimportant for you? I don't see why you could support changes like this. This is bad writing for cheap drama.

You mean where he is initially dismissive then acknowledges he's out of line and apologizes, that's not misogynistic (badword) that's justifiable bias that he immediately fights.

12 hours ago, Cauthonfan4 said:

if the DR is a woman why would the people still fear them?

if the DR is a woman there is zero threat of the world breaking.

if the DR is a woman there is no reason for the DR to unify the world, as it would basically already be done.

You're joking, right?

If the DR is a woman they're still going to break the world according to prophecy.  If you believe the prophecy then no, there's not zero threat.

And no reason to unify?  Really, so knowing what's coming in Tarmon Gaidin, each of those countries being piecemeal and looking out for themselves would have been able to handle Demandred?  

You're literally ignoring reality, human nature and the entire rest of the prophecy all to make your point.

3 hours ago, ilovezam said:

• A non-binary reincarnation system reduces the consequences and fear for the Dragon Reborn.

Saidin being tained gives EXTRA reason to be afraid of the dragon.  Plain and simple a prophesized power that will break the world while saving it would cause fear no matter the circumstances.  And... It was always going to be Rand so nothing really changed.

 

3 hours ago, ilovezam said:

• A vaguely non-binary One Power reduces the hard magic system of the world that is well loved.
  • Moiraine now able, but unwilling to teach Rand
  • Rand learns to channel by surrendering to the Power

It's specifically male and female, women can't see male weaves, men are stronger than women, it's equally unexplained in the book at this point other than generically giving names.  Moraine gives an implication that she can teach, she doesn't state she can.  Rand doesn't surrender to the power, we don't see how he channels, again, like book one.
 

3 hours ago, ilovezam said:

• Removing male character's positive traits/feats in favour of uplifting women led to some of the worst scenes
  • Jagar having a extremely hamfisted "girl is 100% right, stupid man refuses to listen"  scene with Amalisa
  • LTT having a extremely hamfisted "girl is 100% right, stupid man refuses to listen"  scene with Latra
    • The Breaking of the World is now a preventable catastrophe caused by male arrogance
  • Tam, blademaster, bodied by one Trolloc, as we see a bunch of elderly farmswomen take one out.
  • Rand's moment taken away from him leading to the actual worst scene of the season.
    • 5 untrained channelers vs 20,000 Trollocs.
    • Egwene Healing near-death
  • "She has a tell"
  • Perrin, Mat, Lan does nothing all season
  • The Dragon Reborn is not developed. He doesn't get to experience transitioning from a good-natured farmer to a weapon of destruction that's doomed to go mad. In fact he just accepts it, and starts talking about LTT's memories in first person.

The point is nonsense as has been discussed at length, there is no plot to "diminish men".  Agelmar is equally useless in the books despite how much we're told he's good.  LTT has a single conversation without outside context.  You're making assumptions without full evidence.  Tam did well but lost after 20 years of not being a soldier against something stronger, faster and bigger than him.  Meanwhile a large number of people took out a trolloc.  Rand's moment in the Gap was a Deus Ex Machina out of nowhere and didn't make him cool, it made him a plot device.  We don't know what Egwene did.  Perrin and Mat did nothing in book one.  Lan does a lot.

2 hours ago, ilovezam said:

 

It's still not a good look considering what he did do to the adaptation.

Not the way logic works.  Those who didn't like the adaptation approach everything from the perspective that he has ruined or damaged or whichever description they want to use.  They then take anything that CAN be meant in a negative light and hold it up as proof.  Confirmation bias at its best.

And no, it's still not a bad look.  The idea that he was offered a project, is a big fan of said project and so didn't want to let others mishandle is not a bad statement, even if some don't like the result.

He also said very early on that the biggest changes happened in the early books since that's when Jordan was a lot more fast and loose and still defining things.

23 minutes ago, Deviations said:

Why couldn't they have done the ageless look with makeup?  Skin a little too tight, hair a little too thin without the 'lustre' of youth....

 

Catherine could be 25 here, she could be 45?

Mid 30's.  Aes Sedai Agelessness is not the same as looking fairly youthful.

2 hours ago, RextheDog said:

i mean, your the one who decided it was a good idea to focus on a side part player to emphasise the power of the bond, yet havent explained it properly to be honest and then ignored it by episode 8.....('im masked, ah well, hope shes OK, id be terribly sad if something was to happen to her.......pass us another biscuit can you Nyn love')

You do realize that quote doesn't automatically mean "I'm awesome and no one can do better."  It can very well also mean "I've been given this task, I couldn't forgive myself if I pass it by and someone else messes it up."

Also, please stop mischaracterizing what happened to make a fake point.  Lan was with Nynaeve.  Fast Forward to way late at night or early in the morning, Rand comes to Moraine.  They prep, she masks the bond and they leave.  Lan wakes up, can't feel her, runs to check, finds out she left, tells Nynaeve, sets out after her.

No ignoring the issue or writing off the issue occured.

6 hours ago, DaddyFinn said:

Surely an AS could convince herself to be in danger in that situation and would be free to use saidar as a weapon. And of course saidar could be used to bind him and others in place and do other non-violent stuff.

It's established the oaths work on perception.  I know if someone walked up to me with a trophy string of Great Serpent Rings and said "Are you an Aes Sedai" I'd at the least bind him in air.  (In the scenario where I can channel).  

1 hour ago, AdamA said:

I honestly don't get that complaint, anyway. The only time we saw Lan in a protracted sword fight was against the trollocs and he totally owned them. The actual complaint I was responding to was people saying he should been able to block 40 trollocs trying to throw spears at Moiraine while also fighting 40 trollocs with his sword at the same time. That is not something any sword fighter can do, no matter how good. Only Chuck Norris can do that.

Similar to the "He should have blocked all the Shrapnel from Logain."  crowd.

2 minutes ago, Jaysen Gore said:

There's a clear sword fighting hierarchy established in the books from the average warder to Hammar, Coulin, Gawyn, Galad, Demandred, and then Lan, and as it stands, that list is at severe risk.

There's a fundamental difference between a swordmaster fighting another single opponent in a dual and a swordmaster handling swarms.

Lan is the best and proves it facing individuals where skill can be fairly ranked.  But even the best can't handle multiple opponents without insane luck and severe skill gaps.  There's a reason the often lauded fight fight scene in Witcher falls so flat for anyone with real fighting experience and it's that if the opponents actually rushed Geralt together he'd have been at best wounded and at worst dead.

So far we haven't seen Lan against a single opponent, we've seen him against multiple creatures that have a foot or so and a ton of muscle on him.

1 minute ago, Jaysen Gore said:

- you support this change because general human decency about not killing strangers in a rage is not enough of a barrier to killing people, so you think fridging his wife wass a better way to go, and that there is a believable way for him to overcome this trauma at some point in his life, let alone in the less than 6 months before meeting his new wife.

Me personally?  No.  But I did spend years in the WoT community constantly seeing people moaning that Perrin should just get over it, killing the White Cloaks wasn't a big deal, they were bad, he was in a fight, it's okay, why is he stressing on it...

What I personally feel is not the same as understanding that a greater audience will find one a cop out and the other a genuine reason to question a choice.  Further.  Even while I'm happy with the book path you can't deny that accidentally hurting someone you care about would be a much more relatable reason to question your path.
 

3 minutes ago, Jaysen Gore said:

- you support the change, because you think Mat was a non-entity 

I am indifferent to this change because Mat as a character has not changed and we didn't get anything on Mat pre dagger in the books.  This isn't "I think"  This is in EotW Mat plays a prank, follows the group and then gets the Dagger and changes. 
 

4 minutes ago, Jaysen Gore said:

- Nynaeve did not stealth up to him - she was on the other side of a clearing behind a tree; a massive difference than being in melee range.

I see t his argument a lot, it's not valid.  Stealth is stealth, sneaking closer gives more chance for the stealth person to make a mistake and be heard, but it's not harder, there's just more rolls of the dice so to speak.  Real world funny story?  I've successfully snuck up on people that were actively watching for me, while wearing a bright red coat and carrying a 7 and a half foot polearm.  If you're good at Stealth you're good at Stealth and even the best scouts have off moments.  

6 minutes ago, Jaysen Gore said:

- Tam - again, you support the change, because you don't agree with what was shown in the book. 

Fair, but are we arguing changes in general?  I was disagreeing with the idea that there's an agenda to make men weak.  
 

7 minutes ago, Jaysen Gore said:

- Aes Sedai in the Gap -  a group of trained sisters as strong as Moiraine (of which there are 3 - Caddy, Siuan, and Elaida) maybe; but that's not what was shown here.

Cadsuane is stronger by a fair margin.  Lelaine and Romanda are also on Moraine's level.  That said, no, I mean a group of the ones at Alanna, Verin, Annoura, etc strength could do it.  Cadsuane could likely hold it alone given her Paralis net, but that's another story.
 

11 minutes ago, Jaysen Gore said:

- women fighting in Fal Dara. I guess chivalry is dead, and women and children first no longer need apply.

That kind of chivalry is sexist plain and simple.  Children should be evacuated and I would argue pregnant women should have the option, but no, making a change to say women can stand up and fight for their lives too is not a change that weakens men.

8 minutes ago, JeffTheWoodlandElf said:

If there was an adaptation of Misborn that "emphasized the ensemble" and pushed Vin to the side in favor of Kelsier, Elend, or Sazed, people would be incensed. When it happens to the men of WoT, it's only Tuesday. 

If there's an adaptation of Mistborn and it's the one woman Vin show without equal focus on the other three main characters I'll be very displeased.  Much like Rand, she's a main character, not The main character.

More to the point, if we were making a show of Mistborn Final Empire:  Vin's a secondary character behind Kelsier until the 2/3rds moment.

If we're doing the Trilogy then she's not important until about halfway through the first film/season and then shares screen with Elend for next season or so and then eventually gets eclipsed by Sazed.

13 minutes ago, MasterAblar said:

Rand has literally no combat experience whatsoever and he's faced with someone who has a sword to his throat and while he is unarmed you expect him to not run away?

To follow up on this.  Now, I could be wrong because it's such a small part of the books that very rarely comes up.  But doesn't Rand have a very strong aversion to harming women?  O:-)

1 hour ago, Jaysen Gore said:

Did Perrin kill his wife in the book?

Did Matt steal from Edmond's Fielders in the book?

Did Abell sleep around on his wife and not protect his family in the book?

Did Nynaeve get a knife to Lan's throat in the book?

Did Tam kill multiple trollocs in the book?

Did 5 women kill 500 trollocs in the book?

Did LTT act from desperation in the book?

Did Lan decide to take them to SL in the book?

Did women fight at Fal Dara, or did they evacuate in the book?

How many people did Nynaeve heal with channeling in the book? More or less than in the cave?

 

Did every one one of the changes I listed above make women look stronger and men weaker than in the books?

Nope, Perrin killed other people in a berserker rage, no change in dynamic other than this time he has a reason to care other than general human decency.

We don't know what Mat did in book 1, he was a non-entity until after the dagger had him.  So maybe.

Abell is a bad change and I've vocally agreed with that.

No, she just stealthed up on him and sat there in his presence while he didn't notice.

Tam did.  Which was something that yanked me out of the book because if he hadn't practiced the blade in 20 years he would have been unbelievably rusty.  As was he still showed himself dangerous and powerful.

LTT acted from hubris and arrogance from the get go, giving over temporarily only because he thought he'd fail and then pushing forward on his own heedless of risk because he decided he was right.

Not sure how many Moraine killed by herself.  If Shienar had Aes Sedai they would have held the Gap without Rand's Deus Ex.

Lan did decide that, vocally and in argument with Moraine until she finally caved and accepted his recommendation.  If anything TV Lan made a command decision from strength where as Book Lan argued and pleaded until the strong woman gave him his way.

Women evacuated, a lovely sexist and nonsensical step that in no way weakens men by changing.

Nynaeve's block was fully in place in book 1.  But again, making her stronger doesn't make men weaker, you're bias is showing in the last two points.

None of this made men weak, that you find any lack of success a sign of weakness and any significant task done by a woman a sign of emasculation is troubling to an extreme.

5 minutes ago, Jaysen Gore said:

Divica has said it well, but i'll just add that there's been nothing shown in the series so far that shows men are just as competent as the women, except for Ishamael vs. Moiraine.  In every other case, they've shown the women to be stronger and more competent than the men

You mean the way book 1 went?  No one could stand up to Moraine and the three competent male warriors (Tam, Lan and Thom) are either injured and set aside, act completely subservient to Moraine, or get "Killed" midway through the book.

Elyas is in hiding and afraid of being found by his Aes Sedai.  Perrin is along for the ride the entire time. 

Rand and Mat struggle and hide and accomplish nothing.

Bryne is competent, but beneath Morgase and Elaida.  Gawyn and Galad are set aside without fanfare.

Agelmar is committing suicide in the books same as he is in the show.

Literally the only competent "male" moment is Rand at the end, and it's a Deus Ex Machina.

Seriously, it was book 4 when the tables start turning and everyone is still bickering along Gender Lines in the final volume.

58 minutes ago, divica said:

I just anted to leave this link so people here read the comments

 

Why The Wheel of Time succeeds as an adaptation (and The Witcher fails) - Page 2 (winteriscoming.net)

 

Basically almost everybody disgrees ith the article. From readers to non-readers...

They're not wrong, though I don't agree with all points.

And yeah, the small handful of comments (211 is small when the viewership is in the millions) disagree.

You know who doesn't?  Critics.  I see everyone tossing around RT and WoT only have 82% versus things like GoT being higher.  But they conveniently choose to not notice that Witcher is at 81% and Season 1 of Witcher is at 68%.

What I really don't understand is the obsession that because you didn't like it somehow you need to find validation of everyone else hating it too.  It's wierd.

2 hours ago, Lethira the second said:

I'd peg that with the scene with Legolas surfing down the steps firing arrows. 

 

Yes, you are correct the fight (as a fight scene) was totally unrealistic.  It's almost as fanciful as one of the great captains getting pinned to the wall with a spear sailing through an arrow slit or a single Aes Sedai with no angreal managing to rip a building to pieces without burning out.  

 

I don't watch a great deal of TV but I've yet to see a fight scene in a fantasy show that is realistic.  With the possible exception of Spartacus -given the nature of the material there are a few in seasons 0 and 1 the feel authentic.

 

You'll note I didn't say Witcher was bad.  I said the fight scene was bad and that it was an interesting thing to bring in as a comparison while complaining that Lan is not show as competent.  IE, the example of how Lan should be should involve deliberately bad pacing and nonsense so he looks cool.

Also, your side notes are not comparible.

Agelmar's death is perfectly realistic.  Not something I wanted to happen or am super thrilled with, but also not something that made me go "that's not something that would happen."  Which is the issue here.  Same with Moraine, she doesn't casually crush a whole building, she starts ripping stones out and throwing them.  Seems perfectly in line with what we see her, Alanna and Verin do (She's stronger than Alanna and Verin for the record).

23 minutes ago, Jaysen Gore said:

That scene always bothered me, since the bond didn't automatically break when she went through in Tear, and she never died in the Finn's land. So either the burning of the doorway ripped the bond, or she intentionally severed it herself.

I assumed the second.  She knew he'd never stop trying to rescue her so she sent him to Myrelle to prep him for Nynaeve as even with the devastation of the bond breaking it's still a better option than him entering the tower of Gengei.  Specially since she knew only 3 people could successfully rescue her.

40 minutes ago, Lethira the second said:

That's not the question I'm asking.  I know that Lan feels the bond break when Moiraine goes through the Ter'angreal.  That is a breaking of the bond, not Moiraine being cut off from the source. I would go so far as to say we don't have any evidence of the effects of someone being stilled on the Warder bond.

If that's the case it invalidates the whole issue.

My original comment you quoted and addressed was in response to someone saying the Kerene/Steppin arc was being done to provide lead up for the "Moraine is stilled season 2 plot".

If she's not stilled, then the point is null, which is the argument I made.

If she is stilled, but that doesn't damage the bond or cause fallout or issue, then it likewise makes the point null, since one wouldn't be able to claim the Kerene/Steppin plot happened for that reason.

2 minutes ago, Lethira the second said:

Do we actually know what happens to a warder when their Aes Sedai is stilled?  -From the book perspective?  I can't think on one instance where it happens.  As to warders dying, well given that an Aes Sedai can die without causing the Warder to go into a blood rage, I feel the stakes have been reduced significantly.

It's specifically brought up that Lan can tell the bond is broken when it is and that he sensed it go.  Doesn't matter that it wasn't stilling, he's able to determine if the bond is intact or not.