Killing in WoT and it's affect on characters

[jack of shadows]

chapeau! bfg,wonderful post,but you missed my point,

mangin and fedwin morr died because of rand-with one big difference,

rand,personally executed fedwin morr,he didn't just order it,like he did to mangin.

 

"what could/will happen to other men who learned to channel because of him."

you can blame rand for tainting saidin,but those men were going to fumble,

blunder,channel sooner or later,regardless of rand's influence.

[BFG]

That's an excellent point about rand ordering the death of mangin, but killing Morr directly. I can't remember now if Rand watched Mangin's execution or not either, but he felt it personally.

 

However, killing Morr when he did was a 'kindness' in a fashion and Rands reaction to it was far colder

 

Some of those men, may have had the spark, but most probably needed to be shown. Without the black tower most would have lived normal lives and had the same chance as anyone else without it

[szilard]

in my opinion,rand's decision to hang mangin,was not as painful

as administering poison into fedwin morr's cup.

 

Rand supresses his feelings all the time + it's not helpful that we see the Fedwin-scene from Min's pov.

 

He's very sensitive, but thinking of his duty night and day blocks any attempt to have a heart-to-heart (talk) to anyone. That's why I' so disappointed in every time when I'm reading the last three books. Just talk with Nyn! And with MinAviEl! 

 

To quote Brad Pitt (2004): "At night I see their faces. All the men I've killed. They're standing there on the far bank of the river Styx. They're waiting for me. They say, 'Welcome, brother'."

 

I'd say that both cases were equally painful for him.

 

I still think it's more to do with killing with the OP vs killing with a weapon.  Anytime Mat and Perin have had to kill it's been face to face.  The three women it's with the OP, and Rand its been with a weapon and OP.  I do think the OP offers a detachment when you kill with it. 

 

I don't think so. Killing with drones has thse same effect on soldiers as close combat.

 

 

Nyn is older than them, so she sees the world in a different light. She knows thats she cannot save everybody. When she left her village, she left her patients too. Without her most of them will die. Is it a hard decision? It is, but she feels/knows that she could do more if she will leave TR.

 

El was trained from her childhood that she has to use people for the greater good (her country is more important than individuals), that's her job, that's her duty, 'you cannot think what happened yesterday, you must live in the present, your Mother could die anytime' etc.

 

The boys (except Mat) have their disadvantages (age, lack of this kind of education), so they have much harder times.

 

Eg is so busy (being the centre of the universe is not an easy job!) that simply she has no time for other people (exag)

 

 

It's harder to sympathise with Mangin

 

Because of his willingness?

[dexterryu]

Mangin vs Morr is an interesting discussion. Rand likes both of these men and has to administer both of their deaths.

 

In Mangins case, he broke a law that Rand made and was probably justified in doing so. Rand knows this, but also has no choice in that not enforcing his law would be very bad. He wants to make an exception but obviously can't.  He is present for the hanging and it does bother him. To my knowledge this is the first time Rand has had to give and execute the order for a death sentance. He's still new to this part of ruling and this type of killing.

 

In Morr's case, Morr is basically already gone. Giving him death was a kindness, but anyone that has had a pet that they have had to put down out of mercy knows that this is incredibly painful and hard to do. Rand handles this coldly on the outside too, but also realizes that Morr is in this predicament because of him on several levels. That said, by this time Rand is directly responsible for countless deaths via the battles he's been in by this point. He's also slightly numb to it.

 

One other thing in regards to Mangin. This is also an interesting comparison between Rand and Egwene since both come from basically the same upbringing. Egwene has to sentence the deaths of many Black Sisters, some of whom she did like. Again, Egwene doesn't seem to show much remorse but by this point, she's had a hand in many deaths and also knows that she is killing evil so it's hard to know how that would change things.

[BFG]

@Szilard

 

Because Morr willingly gave up everything that he 'was'. Men know the consequences of channelling, but he thought/knew it was necessary and did it anyway. Mangin died because he was unable to see that the Cairhien weren't 'mocking' the Aiel culture, they didn't understand it. Eh I'm struggling to articulate what I mean here

[jack of shadows]

@szilard,

"i'd say that both cases were equally painful for him.'

maybe,in mangin case,rand played judge and jury,in fedwin morr case,

rand played judge,jury and executioner-let me quote something that

rand said to lan:"that mountain can grow awfully heavy sometimes..."

in the long run,the burden of decision-making costs rand heavily.

(bfg called it the isolation process).

 

for the record,i completely agree with the rest of your post.

[szilard]

Mangin vs Morr is an interesting discussion. Rand likes both of these men and has to administer both of their deaths.

 

In Mangins case, he broke a law that Rand made and was probably justified in doing so. Rand knows this, but also has no choice in that not enforcing his law would be very bad. He wants to make an exception but obviously can't.  He is present for the hanging and it does bother him. To my knowledge this is the first time Rand has had to give and execute the order for a death sentance. He's still new to this part of ruling and this type of killing.

 

In Morr's case, Morr is basically already gone. Giving him death was a kindness, but anyone that has had a pet that they have had to put down out of mercy knows that this is incredibly painful and hard to do. Rand handles this coldly on the outside too, but also realizes that Morr is in this predicament because of him on several levels. That said, by this time Rand is directly responsible for countless deaths via the battles he's been in by this point. He's also slightly numb to it.

 

Agree.

@Szilard

 

Because Morr willingly gave up everything that he 'was'. Men know the consequences of channelling, but he thought/knew it was necessary and did it anyway. Mangin died because he was unable to see that the Cairhien weren't 'mocking' the Aiel culture, they didn't understand it. Eh I'm struggling to articulate what I mean here

 

I don't get it at all, but

 

@szilard,

"i'd say that both cases were equally painful for him.'

maybe,in mangin case,rand played judge and jury,in fedwin morr case,

rand played judge,jury and executioner-let me quote something that

rand said to lan:"that mountain can grow awfully heavy sometimes..."

in the long run,the burden of decision-making costs rand heavily.

(bfg called it the isolation process).

 

for the record,i completely agree with the rest of your post.

 

maybe you want to say what jack of shadows just did say? Which is also a very interesting approach.

[BFG]

Not exactly, I guess I'm trying to say it's easier to view Morr as a victim and it's easier to sympathise with victims.

[BFG]

Morr died because he was fighting the Dark One (not directly, but...)

 

Mangin died because of internal fighting

[Ferule]

Just a note, Rand was not present during Mangin's execution. He was informed by Berelain while on his way to the traveling grounds out of Caierhien. There was a comment that I cannot recall specifically about how Rand as a ruler couldn't witness every execution and this one should be no different than any other. The wise one who made this comment also made a comment about how he's becoming harder/stronger.

[szilard]

Morr died because he was fighting the Dark One (not directly, but...)

 

Mangin died because of internal fighting

 

Now you've lost me. Totally.

[Sabio]

Mangin broke the law, and was punished as the law described.  Most of Rand's anger was that those he put in charge who waited and put it on Rand to say the punishment.

 

Morr was insane, what Rand did was humane and needed to be done.   Min knew his killing Morr hurt him. 

[jack of shadows]

i started the mangin vs morr discussion,so let me elaborate a little,

my original post wasn't about empathy nor preference,it was about

the burden of command:"to be a good commander you must be willing

to order the death of the thing you love."(michael shaara,the killer angels).

rand ordered the execution of mangin and,and and took it a step further

when he personally killed morr.

who mangin and morr were or why they died is immaterial,both of them

were soldiers in rand's army(mangin-infantry,morr-special forces)

bfg's response to my original post took me completely by surprise,

her post was about empathy,or lack thereof for mangin and morr,while

my post was solely about rand and the huge mountain sitting on his shoulders.

[BFG]

Lol, my thinking is occasionally twisty siideways thinking

[BFG]

 

Morr died because he was fighting the Dark One (not directly, but...)

 

Mangin died because of internal fighting

Now you've lost me. Totally.

 

Not really sure how else to explain

 

Morr agreed to be tested to see if he could channel, knowing the consequences. If he hadn't agreed he'd probably have lead a normal life and had the same chances of survival as any other soldier (he almost definately have enlisted), which is to say, not a great chance of survival, but he'd have died as himself (none-insane). Instead he agreed to be tested and in the snippets that we saw him was a decent person. When he went insane he was described as childlike, he was also following 'last orders' (trying to keep Min safe). When Rand killed him it was necessary, but heartbreaking. As a character the death was a kindness, for Rand although he did it himself as a mercy, he has to be thinking about the others and what "he'd" forced them to become. What could happen to himself. It's sad and horribly thought provoking. As readers it's heart breaking (for me) anyway, because Morr is never described as being 'wrong'. He's innocent the entire time. He went insane, trying to fight the 'real' enemy, and althouh Rand killed him and it wasn't in a battle, Morr never fought anyone that wasn't a major threat

 

Mangin is described as a decent bloke, but he's executed because he killed a man wearing tattoos immitating the Chiefs tattoos. The man wearing the tattoos didn't know that what he was doing was offensive (probably - we don't get his viewpoint) he was (probably) immitating a culture he was starting to admire. As a character this is difficult for Rand because Mangin has to die because of his order and he likes the guy. But as a reader the death feels pointless. There's this big battle coming against this massive enemy, and Mangin dies because of a cultural misunderstanding.

[BFG]

To drag it back to the original point about the two deaths being hard on Rand, for myself Morrs death is harder, because of what it represents for all male channelers, because he's described as innocent while Mangins doesn't have the emotional resonance (not sure that's the right word) and it all just comes across as a misunderstanding. Mangins death is as hard for Rand as it's the first step that puts him down the leaders isolation. Because he has to order his friend to be killed.

 

For Rand they're both tragic, as a reader I was far more affected by Morrs death

[szilard]

 

 

Morr died because he was fighting the Dark One (not directly, but...)

 

Mangin died because of internal fighting

Now you've lost me. Totally.

 

Not really sure how else to explain

 

Morr agreed to be tested to see if he could channel, knowing the consequences. If he hadn't agreed he'd probably have lead a normal life and had the same chances of survival as any other soldier (he almost definately have enlisted), which is to say, not a great chance of survival, but he'd have died as himself (none-insane). Instead he agreed to be tested and in the snippets that we saw him was a decent person. When he went insane he was described as childlike, he was also following 'last orders' (trying to keep Min safe). When Rand killed him it was necessary, but heartbreaking. As a character the death was a kindness, for Rand although he did it himself as a mercy, he has to be thinking about the others and what "he'd" forced them to become. What could happen to himself. It's sad and horribly thought provoking. As readers it's heart breaking (for me) anyway, because Morr is never described as being 'wrong'. He's innocent the entire time. He went insane, trying to fight the 'real' enemy, and althouh Rand killed him and it wasn't in a battle, Morr never fought anyone that wasn't a major threat

 

Mangin is described as a decent bloke, but he's executed because he killed a man wearing tattoos immitating the Chiefs tattoos. The man wearing the tattoos didn't know that what he was doing was offensive (probably - we don't get his viewpoint) he was (probably) immitating a culture he was starting to admire. As a character this is difficult for Rand because Mangin has to die because of his order and he likes the guy. But as a reader the death feels pointless. There's this big battle coming against this massive enemy, and Mangin dies because of a cultural misunderstanding.

 

 

Aha, I see it now. Thanks. But I still say that we got a distorted view because of Min's pov.

[jack of shadows]

i am going off topic here.

@bfg,

"it's easier to view morr as a victim".

you have raised an interesting point.

rand founded the black tower,he declared amnesty to all male channelers,

gave them identity,purpose,and for those who were born with the spark,

the opportunity to die in battle.

rand's decision to appoint marzim taim as the leader of the black tower was

a costly mistake,the guy who replaced him,logain ablar,created a different

set of problems,but the idea to create an alternative to the white tower,and

add a different kind of channeling force to his arsenal was(in my opinion) brilliant.

my question to you is,do you preceive asha'man as victims?bear in mind that

the last battle was looming...(i know that you like piece of mind,normal life-and no,it wasn't a mistake lol)

 

on a side note,i like your posts,as twisty and sideways as they are.lol.

[Sabio]

Not to go off topic, but at the time Rand had no choice but to put Taim in charge,  Rand didn't have the time and Loagin hadn't joined yet.  So a costly mistake maybe, but he had no choice.  Ashaman weren't victims, they knew what they were risking.  Those who were going to channel no matter what would of died anyway.  The others willing joined once they discovered they could channel.