[Standard] Chrono Trigger Mafia - Town wins Day 5!

[Turin Turambar]

Turin, before I answer - did you read my entire ISO?

Yes. All 7 pages. There is stuff in there but I am having some trouble pointing at exactly whaere you changed opinion and what in particular was the tipping point.  

[Andrej]

Ok. I ask because I would think so of the answers would be clear, but apparently not. I need to drive to work but I will respond shortly enough.

[Turin Turambar]

It reads overall as vague to me.  Part of it is that from reading I had you with reads/leans that you deny having later on. So I am just trying to get a better feel for you and Zander. 

 

When you get a chance will be good enough. 

[Andrej]

@Mods - I'm happy with an extension

[Verbal32]

Welp.  I'm pretty much vanilla now.

I wanna give spot reads -

 

Yates - town

 

 

 

 I feel so much better   I love to be informed.

 

 

I was informed townie, I knew Yates was town.  Useless now v.v

 

I want to believe this right now.

 

 

 

 

Verbal - seems to comment a little here and there. What he made clear:

 

AJ scummy for not handling Nolder good.

Hallia's read is inconsistent (agreed with Lenlo).

Yates scummy for being a mediator, asking questions without purpose and either clearing or buddying Zander by agreeing with his post.

Don't like Hallia calling him deep wolf.

 

Questions for Verbal:

 

In your list you had AJ third from the bottom. Why did you not vote Yates or Hally that was below him?

 

You said to Hallia that if Yates turned out town it would make you feel better about AJ and Hallia and worse about Dice and Leelou. What were your reasons for this? Do you still think that is right?

 

 

 

I'll continue with the rest later.

 

Tina absolutely town for this post.  I'll answer:

 

I had a vote on a suspect, so I didn't see the need to move it at that point.  Yates was placed below him as a show of respect - I was more afraid of him being scum and mediating the thread than anybody else.  I know that Yates can mediate as both town and mafia, but I didn't like how he'd done it multiple times in this game already.  It immediately raised my hackles.  As for moving people up/down - it was a gut feeling for moving people up, and total POE for moving people down.  I fired that from the hip, though - I admit.

 

 

 

As I've explained regarding him all along; his gameplay.  His arguments have made sense, I feel that he's been trying to explain himself as best as is possible.  I unvoted Len at the moment, because I'm considering what I want to do.

 

There's not a ton from Verb, but I do think he's suspect after the way he went for Yates initially.  I also would like more from Thane.  I find him suspect, because he pops in and says how he has lots of nulls, twice, and well, I find that suspect.

 

Sussing somebody because they do something I've seen done more often as scum should not be suspect.  I don't have any information on other players - I see something I associate with scum, and I called it out.  Simple as that.

[Andrej]

Just a quick note. I was away for the weekend (which was awesome) and now I'm back. I only really post when I have time by myself. Less so when family around. TBH I just rather be with them.

 

I have now read AJ and am gonna go thru Zander. I'm gonna post a few thoughts NOT related to your Zander back and forth.

 

Questions for AJ:

 

Can you show me what gave you your initial ping on Tina and then what the turning point was that led you to find her no longer mafia? I see that you say you made it obvious but I am just not seeing it in black and white.

 

Same thing on why you changed on Nolder. I know why you initially read him as mafia.(the Tina thing and it coming off as "fake derp").

 

On Lenlo, you say that he looks worse because Hallia has claimed informed townie. I am a bit concerned that this is a case of taking later events into account to paint Lenlo as mafia. No one knew what her role was when the questions started. Now I see it as very unlikely that Hallia is mafia based on her breadcrumbs on the role and reading Yates as town. If she (or her team) came up with that I think I need to tip my cap to them. My point here is that Len didn't have that knowledge when He was questioning her so for you to say that he should have known Hallia was town from the start is unfair at least and manipulative at worst.

 

Off to read Zander now... wish me luck. LOL

I know you said you'd be gone. Just generally I get sketched out when people are quiet for long periods, not saying that makes you scum.

 

The initial ping has been discussed a lot I think, so I'm a bit confused why you're asking me again. I had her down as strange/maybe scum because strange after she asked Dice out of nowhere what his read on me would be. We had a brief discussion, I said her answer was fair but was really the only way to answer imo. So she remained as maybe scum, which is when I corrected Nolder and said she was someone I could potentially vote. Which again, this implication that just because I said that people would vote her and I was waiting on that to join is pretty silly. Anyway - she hadn't posted at all since our brief exchange and after I went to bed and woke up the next morning she had her long catch up posts casing a few people and eventually voting me. I thought these were good posts. She has continued asking the right questions imo since then, so I accept that my initial ping was nothing.

 

Ftr, once again - I never stated "Nolder is mafia". I said I was troubled by Nolder's apparent blunder because I know he does that sort of stuff as scum. We argued a bit but never during the exchange did I say I thought he was scum. I wanted him to explain how he missed what should have been somewhat clear. After going to sleep and waking up the next morning one of my first posts was that despite Nolder having a go at me I didn't think he was scum because of his aggressiveness.

 

Hallia being more or less a named townie does look worse for Lenlo, I maintain that. It's not a hard concept to understand. When you gain new info you go back and evaluate player's interactions with them. He does look bad for his interactions with her in general which is why I scum read him in the first place, now doubly so with her reveal. When I said he was ignoring what made Hallia obviously town I was talking about her backbone and spunkiness, not her claim, FTR.

[Andrej]

Oh, good. Verbal is back.

[Verbal32]

Oh, good. Verbal is back.

 

If I told you Lenlo was town, who would you place in his spot?

[Turin Turambar]

Where I am right now.

 

Tina: liked her questions from the start. Well once I figured out what she was about with Dice/Nolder. Only gotten better since then.

Hallia: Claim makes her nearly assured to be town. Some of the play was very irksome. I would really like to get a complete read list cause I want a PoV that is completely separate from me.

Verb: I have pretty much only agreed with him all game. I do want him back in the game. Even if I have to post more Spidey to get him back.

Lenlo: I liked that he was willing to question Hallia and didn't back off when two vocal players blew back at him. I agree with what he saw and understand how he wanted to pin Hallia down on what her reads on those people were exactly. Mafia will try to be vague to be able to suss their teammates but never quite get around to voting them.

Zander: I don't have anything that is screaming mafia about Zander. I do have a couple of niggling things. The back and forth with AJ feels mostly like they are both going "you're mafia... no you are... " it isn't ringing true on either side. The other thing I would like clarified is his Nolder read. 

Leelou: I haven't got anything bad on her but activity won't let me move her above null. 

Nolder: The situation with Tina still feels off. I know he has posted other things since then but that doesn't mean that a bad push is just forgiven. One thing that I did take to heart from Cory about hunting wolves is that you can't disregard old info when taking new info into account. Incorporate the new but don't forget the old. I'm not sure if I believe his explanation. 

AJ: As I mentioned already. It doesn't feel like there was anything that he worked at on D1. Also the reads list that was vague with lots of wiggle room. It is okay to have to change but have a position.

Thane: No real stances being taken about who is mafia. No real reasons given for any reads. feels obstructionist. 

 

 

I would really like to hear AJ and Z make clear posts about why they think the other is mafia. 

 

Would also like reads lists from everyone. DL is approaching. What is everyone thinking about the extension? 

[Nolder]

Nolder - did you just call me a good wagon and not vote?

 

Must be scum lololololol

I'm holding my vote pending discussion. I could vote and push your lynch now if you want?

[Nolder]

Speaking of lynching...

 

AJ do you plan on voting Zander?

[Hallia]

Verb - that's why I'm asking others. I want a clearer view and I feel I am biased.

[Andrej]

 

Lenlo/Verb are on that fringe of scum range for me.

 

Neither have really done anything constructive, Lenlo especially so. This looks bad after seeing how he's played in our more recent games.

 

Verb has asked some game play-ish questions but I don't think they were truly progressive.

 

Atp I don't think they are bad wagon options.

 

I want to see Nolder respond to my questions. That was a pretty bad mistake he made earlier and I know it's kind of his scum play to pull stuff like that. Act confused, etc.

Why did you vote Verb over Len at this point? I know you had them both as options but if Len was worse then why vote Verb? and why hold it there for so long?

 

AJ, from going back over your posts from D1 the biggest concern that came up to me was that you posted and said things but didn't seem to actually "Do anything". You voted Verb early and held it there and then just basically self preservation voted Dice although you seemed to be town reading him all/most fo the day. I would have expected you to make a real case on someone and work at showing what you were thinking since you were in the lynch pool. If for no other reason than you would want to give us your thoughts that we could use as confirmed town after your flip.

What's funny is that you actually quoted the very same post where I talk about Nolder doing dumb stuff as scum but never say I think he was scum because of it. For someone who apparently poured through my ISO, you're missing pretty easy details.

 

I was already voting Verb at that point. What does it matter if I have my vote on one suspect and not another? In the bolded part I am highlighting that Lenlo hadn't made any game content yet where as Verb had at least asked some questions - though I didn't think they were great ones to start.

 

ONCE AGAIN - my vote stayed on Verb because I was waiting for him to respond to me. He did, looked villagery so I unvoted. My other suspects, Lenlo/Tina also looked more villagery - so I didn't vote them either. This has ALL been covered already.

 

Tbf D1 started pretty slow and didn't pick up until a few hours before DL when several players were already out for the weekend. I don't necessarily have to be the town leader every game and you bringing this up feels a little like smearing. There really wasn't a lot of casing/voting in general. I made my thoughts pretty clear throughout the Day and when I wasn't I tried pretty hard to make it so. If I was going to get lynched my final thoughts would've been put out there, and had been already, so I don't see your point.

[Andrej]

 

Oh, good. Verbal is back.

If I told you Lenlo was town, who would you place in his spot?

Turin or Nolder.

[Verbal32]

Nolder

Tina

Turin

Zander

 

Lenlo

Thane

Dice

Leelou

AJ

Yates

Hallia

 

This may have turned out to be an awful list.

[Andrej]

Lol I think a lot of us were wrong on D1, Verb.

[Andrej]

Speaking of lynching...

 

AJ do you plan on voting Zander?

I may. I don't think he particularly defended himself well content wise but the fight he put up makes me hesitate. For now though, like you, I'll hold out for some discussion. Players are back and getting caught up so we'll see.

[Verbal32]

Tina

 

Hallia

Turin

Zander

 

Nolder

Lenlo

AJ

Thane

Leelou

[Turin Turambar]

@AJ, 

 

My basic problem is that from the way you went at Nolder and compared his "error" on Tina as being in line with his mafia "derp" meta you were implying that he was mafia. You may not have meant to do so but it reads that way to me so when you say you never said it it just sounds like lawyerly language. (It depends on what is the definition of "is"). It troubles me because it feels like you are being slippery. 

 

In both cases you are saying that your change of heart came from being away and then using their overall postings to determine they were less likely town. Can you link or quote the post(s) that MOST changed your mind? Yes I am looking for timeline in case you didn't already ascertain that.

 

wrt Hallia and Len, I don't see how you can hold Hallia's nearly being a mechanical town lock against Lenlo when she was doing something sketchy. If I found that Len's initial problem was malarkey or unjustified then that would look worse as being opportunistic. I personally don't so I can't find fault with him for that and it looks like white knighting on your (and Zander's) part. Your special way of reading her doesn't work for him, (tbh, it doesn't work for me either) so I'm not gonna take tone as valid reasoning because it can be faked. So I don't mind that you disagree but I don't see how you can jump to it being scummy on his part because he doesn't see something as subjective as spunkiness. 

[Verbal32]

^ noticeable change is Hallia and Leelou

 

I know Leelou hasn't been involved much, but I am seeing nothing of town Leelou like I know, and a little of the scum Leelou (tunneling on useless stuff).

[Verbal32]

God I'm so damn rusty - please don't let me take long DM breaks anymore......

[Turin Turambar]

 

 

Lenlo/Verb are on that fringe of scum range for me.

 

Neither have really done anything constructive, Lenlo especially so. This looks bad after seeing how he's played in our more recent games.

 

Verb has asked some game play-ish questions but I don't think they were truly progressive.

 

Atp I don't think they are bad wagon options.

 

I want to see Nolder respond to my questions. That was a pretty bad mistake he made earlier and I know it's kind of his scum play to pull stuff like that. Act confused, etc.

Why did you vote Verb over Len at this point? I know you had them both as options but if Len was worse then why vote Verb? and why hold it there for so long?

 

AJ, from going back over your posts from D1 the biggest concern that came up to me was that you posted and said things but didn't seem to actually "Do anything". You voted Verb early and held it there and then just basically self preservation voted Dice although you seemed to be town reading him all/most fo the day. I would have expected you to make a real case on someone and work at showing what you were thinking since you were in the lynch pool. If for no other reason than you would want to give us your thoughts that we could use as confirmed town after your flip.

What's funny is that you actually quoted the very same post where I talk about Nolder doing dumb stuff as scum but never say I think he was scum because of it. For someone who apparently poured through my ISO, you're missing pretty easy details.

 

I was already voting Verb at that point. What does it matter if I have my vote on one suspect and not another? In the bolded part I am highlighting that Lenlo hadn't made any game content yet where as Verb had at least asked some questions - though I didn't think they were great ones to start.

 

ONCE AGAIN - my vote stayed on Verb because I was waiting for him to respond to me. He did, looked villagery so I unvoted. My other suspects, Lenlo/Tina also looked more villagery - so I didn't vote them either. This has ALL been covered already.

 

Tbf D1 started pretty slow and didn't pick up until a few hours before DL when several players were already out for the weekend. I don't necessarily have to be the town leader every game and you bringing this up feels a little like smearing. There really wasn't a lot of casing/voting in general. I made my thoughts pretty clear throughout the Day and when I wasn't I tried pretty hard to make it so. If I was going to get lynched my final thoughts would've been put out there, and had been already, so I don't see your point.

 

Bold: How do you expect us to read that as anything other than a suss on Nolder?

 

Because you stated that Lenlo was the worse of the two. They were both "on the fringe of scum range" so if you are admitting it is a bit of a stretch (my interprtetation) I would expect you to vote the person you feel worst about. According to your words that would be Lenlo. You dropped your vote on Verb tho. It doesn't make sense to me. You say that they ALL seemed villagery to you when you got back and you had no other suspects. 

 

Underlined: I disagree. I find most of what you said to be vague. The fact that It looks like you were saying one thing and you are saying you were saying something else is troubling in the extreme. Maybe it is just me. 

[Andrej]

My suss on Nolder was similar to my one on Tina. He did something that I've seen him do as scum, I noted as much, but wanted to see more. My purpose isn't to argue words with you, but you are implying the intent to my posts where I didn't explicitly express something.

 

My comparison between the two was strictly on the amount of content that could be considered constructive. Lenlo had no questions yet, Verb has what I considered non important ones. I stuck with my vote on him.

[Andrej]

Turin - who are you going to vote? That's all I really care about atp.

[Turin Turambar]

Noted. 

 

Family time approaching soon. I will be about. Right now I'm thinking Thane or AJ. 

 

Never lynching Tina. Probably never lynching Hallia. 

 

Really want to hear from Thane. Again.