[BASIC/STANDARD] Warcraft: War of the Ancients Mafia - GAME OVER, MAFIA WINS

Nolder · January 5, 2016

Family time. So

Hardclaim: Alexstrsza- Town Doctor

I won't be back in thread until tomorrow sometime. Unless I can sneak a few minutes here or there.

Ok so I just want to say that NORMALLY my position is that claims (especially on D1 and especially under pressure) don't matter.

If you were suspicious of someone a claim should not change your position.

That said, in this specific case I believe Turin.

I'll even says he's at -0.5 in my notes right now.

So for what it's worth to anyone I believe this claim is legit.

Why isn't Turin towntelling better?

Sorry?

Ummm I don't know....maybe he's busy I guess?

Seems like a question for him not me.

I'm asking you because you have him negative right now but you believe his claim. He's done nothing to show he's town. Even if someone is busy, they can town tell in the few posts they're able to have. It's not the effort that someone puts in, it's how they do it when they are around.

+/-1 usually isn't a big deal. It's like saying null leaning X.

That said I've liked some of his reads.

Dunno what else to say, the claim feels legit to me.

I could be wrong. If you want to lynch him go ahead but I think I have better targets.

Nolder · January 5, 2016

Several people keep asking me not just for reads but also for reasons. I keep putting them off but I also know how that looks and the calls for reads are getting more frequent.

I am hoping that by sharing what I have on my top 2 town reads it will placate everyone who's been hounding me, at least for awhile.

I thought that was all pretty obvious...

Have you ever done this kind of behavior before in a game? Even if it was a long time ago.

Specifically, the taking of notes and sharing them later.

It's important to my read of you. Please be honest.

UGH DM ate my first response to this.

Yes I have not often but usually in big games.

When I take notes I tend to want to keep them to myself for as long as possible.

Here is a game I've taken notes on before I think: http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/59/puzzles-other-games/game-thread-10-16-top-tier-vanilla-18er-short-night-1482437/

Okay.

Thanks, that got rid of a bad thought in my head that I was having.

About what point in the game did you post your notes?

I think I posted them a few times but honestly I don't remember when.

That game was like being in a hurricane.

Nolder · January 5, 2016

Nomi if you want to give me some time I might be able to dig up some past games here on DM where I've taken and posted notes.

Zander? · January 5, 2016

Family time. So

Hardclaim: Alexstrsza- Town Doctor

I won't be back in thread until tomorrow sometime. Unless I can sneak a few minutes here or there.

If I was the Doc I wouldn't CC this atp.

@ Pizza- Remember our talk about Scum claiming PR's is it relevant here because though people are sussing him. He doesnt have many votes on him. So i guess what Im trying to figure out is: did Town!Turin just claim too early or is Scum!Turin buying time and trying to draw out a CC?

wish-tree · January 5, 2016

atm, I'm reading through your isos of me, Zander

will answer them in a bit

alannalynn · January 5, 2016

Nono, I said I don't need to defend my interactions with Celeste. It's an overchewed bone.

Ahhhh! Still wanna hear from you frand :)

Kaylee · January 5, 2016

*snipped*

Look at my reads list, I don't really have strong scum reads. Let me ask you this then Do I look uniformed or informed in my posts?

I done either yet I have some I'd be willing to vote for. I can't decide on you so I said it'd like to give it time. I don't like this question. Looks kind of like "well look at how I don't strong reads, I can't be mafia because I'm uninformed". I'm not calling you scum. I'm trying to get you to say who's on the table from you're POV. Who are your bottom?

With everything that's gone on you don't have one or two that stood out?

wish-tree · January 5, 2016

Nono, I said I don't need to defend my interactions with Celeste. It's an overchewed bone.

Ahhhh! Still wanna hear from you frand :)

wait for it

I have 14 quoted posts in my queue

and isos are in those

Askthepizzaguy · January 5, 2016

I think I posted them a few times but honestly I don't remember when.

That game was like being in a hurricane.

I hadn't seen you post notes before, thought it was possible you were copying the behavior I exhibited lately, to try to appear villagery.

That kind of stuff is convincing to people after all.

Kaylee · January 5, 2016

@Kaylee, IMO Pizza, Alanna, Shad and Wish are all making noises like they are willing to vote Celeste over Wish. Let's see once the votes fall off of me.

[unvote]

[v] Wish [/v]

Shad or Pizza aren't going anywhere today. I am willing to follow along with the one on my list that I think is viable for today.

I like the vote but Im pretty sure Wish has been Locking Celeste as Town since like her first couple posts....

She has

alannalynn · January 5, 2016

Family time. So

Hardclaim: Alexstrsza- Town Doctor

I won't be back in thread until tomorrow sometime. Unless I can sneak a few minutes here or there.

Ok so I just want to say that NORMALLY my position is that claims (especially on D1 and especially under pressure) don't matter.

If you were suspicious of someone a claim should not change your position.

That said, in this specific case I believe Turin.

I'll even says he's at -0.5 in my notes right now.

So for what it's worth to anyone I believe this claim is legit.

Why isn't Turin towntelling better?

Sorry?

Ummm I don't know....maybe he's busy I guess?

Seems like a question for him not me.

I'm asking you because you have him negative right now but you believe his claim. He's done nothing to show he's town. Even if someone is busy, they can town tell in the few posts they're able to have. It's not the effort that someone puts in, it's how they do it when they are around.

+/-1 usually isn't a big deal. It's like saying null leaning X.

That said I've liked some of his reads.

Dunno what else to say, the claim feels legit to me.

I could be wrong. If you want to lynch him go ahead but I think I have better targets.

Ahh, okay. About those other targets, lmk when you're ready and preferably before deadline? If you don't think Turin is good for today, I'd prefer someone else before we lynch a claimed doc.

Celeste · January 5, 2016

Turin said he would be around yesterday right? Then why did he claim now when deadline is tomorrow and he said he would be around?

alannalynn · January 5, 2016

Nono, I said I don't need to defend my interactions with Celeste. It's an overchewed bone.

Ahhhh! Still wanna hear from you frand :)

wait for it

I have 14 quoted posts in my queue

and isos are in those

<3

Celeste · January 5, 2016

Turin said he would be around tomorrow right? Then why did he claim now when deadline is tomorrow and he said he would be around?

Blah Ebwop

alannalynn · January 5, 2016

Turin said he would be around yesterday right? Then why did he claim now when deadline is tomorrow and he said he would be around?

I presume so that he's not lynched between now and then since he said he'd be gone until tomorrow around deadline.

Lenlo · January 5, 2016

Family time. So

Hardclaim: Alexstrsza- Town Doctor

I won't be back in thread until tomorrow sometime. Unless I can sneak a few minutes here or there.

If I was the Doc I wouldn't CC this atp.

@ Pizza- Remember our talk about Scum claiming PR's is it relevant here because though people are sussing him. He doesnt have many votes on him. So i guess what Im trying to figure out is: did Town!Turin just claim too early or is Scum!Turin buying time and trying to draw out a CC?

imo, he claimed early. If he is scum, yeah he bought himself a day, but there is no world in which he lives through this game.

Turin said he would be around yesterday right? Then why did he claim now when deadline is tomorrow and he said he would be around?

Possibly so we didnt have to CFD onto someone.

Kaylee · January 5, 2016

a few notes from reading:

(Sorry, got called away for lunch)

Nolder- I like his responses so far. Natural, well-thought out.

Zander- seems to be tunneling me. Well, whatever.

csarmi- pretty much null and all fluff.

Pralaya- is he even playing this game anymore?

is anyone else even playing?

Side note:

How many scum are we looking at? May be pointless wifom, but it might be helpful to look for connections among people. What Turin is saying about interactions is valid, even if I disagree with him that my interactions with Celeste are weird. I think Lainey gave a solid defense, so I'm not going to attempt to defend myself. 13 players, so maybe 3-4?

You left off Laine, whom you briefly talk about later and Pizza. Others too,but come on Pizza had been active. Why leave him off?

Askthepizzaguy · January 5, 2016

Family time. So

Hardclaim: Alexstrsza- Town Doctor

I won't be back in thread until tomorrow sometime. Unless I can sneak a few minutes here or there.

If I was the Doc I wouldn't CC this atp.

@ Pizza- Remember our talk about Scum claiming PR's is it relevant here because though people are sussing him. He doesnt have many votes on him. So i guess what Im trying to figure out is: did Town!Turin just claim too early or is Scum!Turin buying time and trying to draw out a CC?

I think Town!Turin didn't do very good villaging this game, but the fact is I own the votes I put down on paper.

I can only blame him so far.

I warned folks not to counterclaim, if Turin is a wolf, a claimed doctor / wolf or a claimed doctor / villager does not survive the game either way.

He always gets lynched for never stopping a murder and never being murdered himself much later on.

When the real doctor dies, Turin is the easiest lynch ever.

Counterclaiming a doctor is dumb.

But, what does tend to happen with wolf counterclaims is that the claim happens close to end of round, and then all kinds of panic to save the doctor, and then the seer or the vig or the town roleblocker (hey, sometimes they exist) dies instead, and the doctor dies that night anyway.

And wolves have every reason in the world to throw their votes on anyone then. It's really defensible behavior.

IMO Turin should village better, but the fact is I should be able to read him better too, and if he's a villager I did not.

Now there is still over a day remaining and we can not panic and we can get our ducks in a row and lynch a wolf instead today.

When that happens, we will have traded a doctor for a wolf. It's better than a doctor and another villager for nothing.

The correct course of action is calm, relax, do the work, and find the next scummiest person and make them die.

Celeste · January 5, 2016

Turin said he would be around yesterday right? Then why did he claim now when deadline is tomorrow and he said he would be around?

I presume so that he's not lynched between now and then since he said he'd be gone until tomorrow around deadline.

Isn't that a bit contradictory then?

Kaylee · January 5, 2016

You think if she's a wolf she's an obvious wolf and it will only get worse over time.

You'd rather hunt the wolves that are still under cover than take the easy lynch.

It makes sense but I think I disagree with it strategically.

More specifically, I think she is more likely to be a mislynch than a wolf at the present time, not that she is especially villagery. And that she should get resolved at some point, but when we have more data on her, thus reducing the odds that it is a mislynch.

If she's a villager I don't want to give the wolves a freebie pass to skate through day one hounding someone who can't defend herself.

If she's a wolf, I want people to continue to pay attention to her, resolve her at some point, don't forget about her. Until she starts to shine like a villagery beacon, she should be in the POE.

I just think it's not the best move to make her first in the POE.

And if she's a wolf, I understand how this looks. I will be dead before I get mislynched over this if she is a wolf.

Ok I'm glad I went back to reread because I knew this post wasn't sitting well with me and I wanted to look over it again.

Nomi is basically agreeing that Celeste looks scummy.

His thought process is if that's WRONG then he wants to give her time to improve and if it's RIGHT it will remain right.

Think about that for a minute. If you think someone is scummy you want to lynch them for what they have or haven't done.

Whatever your reasons are you had them...well for a reason. He seems to be playing on towns fear of mislynching.

Mislynching really isn't a thing when you think about it. You have suspects and at the bottom is the guy who looks the dirtiest.

You get rid of him for a reason. If he's a villager well oh well but he was lynched because he looked like a wolf.

So that's why I don't like this defense of Celeste. Nomi agrees she looks like a wolf...but we shouldn't lynch her. Because mislynches.

I don't like it.

This smells all wrong to me.

I'm liking how you're putting things together here. On your own. I'm willing to see where you're going with this mystery stuff.

wish-tree · January 5, 2016

a few notes from reading:

(Sorry, got called away for lunch)

Nolder- I like his responses so far. Natural, well-thought out.

Zander- seems to be tunneling me. Well, whatever.

csarmi- pretty much null and all fluff.

Pralaya- is he even playing this game anymore?

is anyone else even playing?

Side note:

How many scum are we looking at? May be pointless wifom, but it might be helpful to look for connections among people. What Turin is saying about interactions is valid, even if I disagree with him that my interactions with Celeste are weird. I think Lainey gave a solid defense, so I'm not going to attempt to defend myself. 13 players, so maybe 3-4?

You left off Laine, whom you briefly talk about later and Pizza. Others too,but come on Pizza had been active. Why leave him off?

No, these are additional reads

My older reads for the most part haven't changed.

Umm

I have 36 posts in queue

how many can DM fit in one post box before breaking?

Nolder · January 5, 2016

I think I posted them a few times but honestly I don't remember when.

That game was like being in a hurricane.

I hadn't seen you post notes before, thought it was possible you were copying the behavior I exhibited lately, to try to appear villagery.

That kind of stuff is convincing to people after all.

Nah man I just don't do it often.

I'll find some more examples for you it'll just take time.

Askthepizzaguy · January 5, 2016

Yes that was an early claim. But I want to highlight the fact that I encouraged him to claim before the deadline.

I'm not throwing a pity party for myself and I'm not trying to oversell my own disappointment, but the fact is, I was exerting enough pressure on Turin where he could have been a wagon that lynches today, and if he can't be here tomorrow then he can't be here.

The time to claim, in that circumstance, correctly, was as soon as possible to avoid chicken with head cut off town clusterclucks.

Okay?

It sucks but there's still a proper way to handle a doctor having to claim day one, and in this example this was it.

I apologize for the role I played in it. Like I said, people should act more villagery when they are any villager, especially a doctor. But I own the lion's share of everything that happened.

My questions-

a) Blame game says lynch me next. Who thinks that's the correct course of action? Hint: No.

b) Anyone jump on Turin or who considered Turin or stood back from Turin or defended Turin at any point today look weird for doing so? If so, cite examples.

B is very important, but if some wolves want to claim, A is also good.

Zander? · January 5, 2016

I'd like to bit honestly I'm not sure. I'd vote Csarmi then. I've given thoughts and reads. I just don't feel strongly enough about anyone to push a lynch. I won't just to save myself either. That wouldn't help town win. Unfortunately D1 is hard for me so I often struggle.

I'm following along and being aS active as I can. The only other I'm not sold on my list is Nolder. I'd like to not say as to why just yet as it depends on how he proceeds.

I haven't done the work on Csarmi, and he's given me very little to work with. But he's above several people on my POE.

Would you lynch Celeste instead of yourself or Turin, if Turin somehow looked like a villager today? Those are my bottom 3, I'd like to contain it to that if possible.

Or is it always Csarmi first, Celeste later?

:rolleyes:

Askthepizzaguy · January 5, 2016

I think I posted them a few times but honestly I don't remember when.

That game was like being in a hurricane.

I hadn't seen you post notes before, thought it was possible you were copying the behavior I exhibited lately, to try to appear villagery.

That kind of stuff is convincing to people after all.

Nah man I just don't do it often.

I'll find some more examples for you it'll just take time.

Don't bother, it's a time sink.

I accept the example you gave, that made my tinfoil go away. All I needed was one, and your word that you did it other times is good enough.

[BASIC/STANDARD] Warcraft: War of the Ancients Mafia - GAME OVER, MAFIA WINS

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