World's End Mafia - town wins comprehensively

[Zander?]

Ill be around for a bit if people wanna talk was just planning a quick catch up before signing out for the night.

 

But Im totall in with getting down to business!!!

[Zander?]

#thespellingishard

[Askthepizzaguy]

 

 

 

len i dont think the double vc thing will work til at least n3

 

untill then we are still guessing who the mafia bar slips or a big piece of luck

Why not? Assuming we get flip information, then we know who we lynched is town and who is scum. Then we read their debates/voting process. If we lynch a town D1 then they should follow the will of the town majority and with their 1 vote NK whoever we vote for.

 

Yeah sure we are guessing, but we are making just as educated guesses as we do lynches ITT while at the same time denying mafia control of the NK. I dont see how any of that is bad for town.

 

 

This can happen by accident a lot of the time, why is it a priority for you to make it happen?

 

There's no conscious effort required to make a townie die, it's going to happen by default if we don't lynch a scumbag, which is how we win the game. So either we lynch a scumbag on day one which is fantastic and the point of play and what we're trying to achieve, or we fail at that task and then said townie tries to shoot a scum.

 

Here's the bottom line: I am accusing you of suggesting this, because you want it to work to your advantage either way.

 

You want to lynch a townie, and if you do, you want them to kill another townie, by going with the majority of townies who are lost, plus scum's votes which will assist them in being lost, or you are trying to gain townie credits starting day two for pointing at scumbags day one with your second choice "vote".

 

Either way, your aim is to look townie, by suggesting things that will work out just fine for you as scum.

 

Yuck. 100% yuck.

 

 

Red I'm not sure I follow here.  I mean of course if he's scum he wants to kill town players, but how would essentially obligating a town vig to shoot a majority consensus target rather than firing rogue benefit scum?

 

In some games there is a possibility of a "deep wolf", a wolf so townie they'll slide right on by.

 

With a lynch and a possible vig, one the wolves would rather see "by consensus" so they can have a say in what happens, the wolf team gets a heads up when it would be a bad idea to defend the deep wolf from suspicion, and when it would be a bad idea for the deep wolf to bus another wolf for credit, only to die anyway.

 

It's also possible they could bus drive, redirect, or have a scum doctor.

 

Those last ones are more long shot, but information is power. It's useful to townies, but predictability and manipulate-ability is how I helped carry a scum team to a draw by breaking the game once.

 

All I needed was a role which could stop a lynch. Then I completely wrecked the town's night-kill powers, and used the day lynch stopper to predict who the town would go for in advance, and had my team basically outed, and all not dying because towns are easy to manipulate into doing exactly what you'd predict.

 

It's not even fair. The mod stopped the game because the town couldn't lynch my team. It was rendered broken.

 

All because if you let the scum team know what you're going to do, that allows for the possibility of it being countered.

 

By force, or by guile.

 

Still, I agree with the general idea of naming two suspects minimum. It puts the decision to the wolves whether to bus or to circle the wagons, and that stressor can be an issue for them.

[Zander?]

Anyone else starting to think Nikon's lack of posting stems from randing wolf???

[Lenlo]

Two things

1) Its not a vig. Its a lynch.

2) The entire idea stemmed from the fact that I thought alive players couldnt talk at night. Since they can, two VCs is stupid. Cause we can just talk and discuss the lynch during nightphase.

[Askthepizzaguy]

 

 

I dont understand why you are fighting this.

 

We lynch Town D1 - We control the mafia NK hopefully, kill the scummiest person by thread consensus.

 

We lynch Scum D1 - Scum get to control the N1 NK, game continues as normal.

 

Yeah your right, D1/N1 scum lynchs/vigs are uncommon. But it doesnt matter if we arnt using a vig shot. We are using the mafias own NK. Seriously we pick a name out of a freaking hat, 25% change to get mafia on the lynch, 27% chance on the NK.

 

IN WHAT WORLD DOES KEEPING TWO VCS TODAY HURT TOWN?

 

Bolded- Manipulation of perception, and a heads-up to the scum when distancing from fellow wolves would be appropriate.

A person is hard to fool, but people are easy to fool. People absorb the consensus when they are at a loss for a good idea on their own, and it's easier for wolves to hide within consensus. And wolves have a leg up on individual townies when it comes to manipulating perceptions or consensus because they're not operating solo, but as a tightly-knit unit.

 

You're taking an absolute position here on a grey bit of morality. In principle, it's better for town to hunt with more information, but mafia have ways of manipulating that information, and the opinions of others.

 

Now that you've made a stand on this hill with the all-caps, you're attempting to sound townier than others, as if there's no room for nuanced disagreement. That's a scummy motivation and it should hang you.

 

Ok, I guess I could have kept reading.  I don't think it's a bad idea so much as significantly less beneficial than it appears on the surface--half of town will give a non-committal second choice because we tend to process information one flip at a time, and unless scum are dumb enough to start railing them for it it's not going to amount to much.

 

But I think you're reasoning here is kind of weird.  I mean, everyone already does this to an extent through reads lists.  We all routinely express where we stand on everyone else in the game and why so that scum can't opportunistically dive on the easiest mislynch of the moment.  (Last time Kivam scummed here he lolololol suggested no one post their town reads.  One player was basically forced to reveal as IC after he flipped for rolling with it.)  Any wolf is going to have a general feel for where town is headed and can fake reads that more or less align with consensus.  I don't see where what you're arguing is special in relation to Lenlo's "second VC" idea.

It's all in my posts so far, I can rephrase it but I feel I was quite thorough.

 

What's the point of the bolded in the nested quote by Lenlo?

 

It's in all caps. This bit of melodrama is intended to persuade people that Dice is scummy for it, without doing all the work himself and voting for Dice and making a real case.

 

The smudge is a potent weapon. A smudge is when you paint someone as being wolfy without actually saying it or voting that way, put still putting the work out there so someone else can pick up the banner and lynch him.

 

Lenlo did a lot of work smudging Dice, and it forms a large portion of the basis of my suspicions on him.

 

He threw "the sink" at Dice by asking a ton of leading questions and things that if a townie were saying it, he'd have no problem emphasizing with a vote. Not just that one post, I listed several.

 

It was a concerted campaign by Lenlo to smudge Dice as being suspect.

 

Even if it doesn't get Dice lynched it "looks" like hunting, but it's not real hunting.

 

It only generically appears to be hunting behavior, but it isn't hunting behavior.

 

Hunting behavior is when I say Lenlo is a scumbag, and he should die, here's a dozen posts he did which are scummy as hell and why, here's my vote on him, and he should die day one, and I'm 95 percent sure he's guilty at this point.

 

Now I'm prepared to be talked down, because I know my limitations. But I would caution people to not confuse something that appears to be something on the surface with genuine behavior which should always produce a slightly different result.

[Askthepizzaguy]

I also hate having to use myself as the specific counter-example, but I didn't see a whole lot of genuine hunting from Lenlo today, just a lot for the sake of appearances and bravado about his post count.

 

That appears townie on the outside but is hollow on the inside.

[Askthepizzaguy]

I dropped a few questions for you along the way, still catching up myself.

Let me know if I've missed something. This game is taxing my free time and I'm afraid this work is more rushed than I'd like.

[Zander?]

I also hate having to use myself as the specific counter-example, but I didn't see a whole lot of genuine hunting from Lenlo today, just a lot for the sake of appearances and bravado about his post count.

 

That appears townie on the outside but is hollow on the inside.

 

Do you feel like youve done the most hunting this game?  Because sometimes wolves like to pat themselves on the back....lololololololol

[Lenlo]

Pizza your ignoring me. I dont like it.

 

Also no there was no smudging. If I wanted to smudge I would say there is no world where this is bad for town. Instead I asked a question because I didnt feel Dice was addressing the right part of the idea or that he was providing logical arguments. His math still makes no sense to me.

 

Everything you are saying about me stems from an assumption that I am scum. Again, it looks like you already decided what my alignment should be in your head, and acted on it. Looking at and presenting everything through that lens of "This guy is never not a wolf".

 

Its wrong.

 

I also hate having to use myself as the specific counter-example, but I didn't see a whole lot of genuine hunting from Lenlo today, just a lot for the sake of appearances and bravado about his post count.

 

That appears townie on the outside but is hollow on the inside.

There was no bravado about my post count. There was 1 post, directed at my friend Zander, that you are blowing up.

[Shad_]

A wolf who earns the "second VC" bullet isn't terribly deep though.

 

And I don't see where it's any less obvious who so-and-so would shoot as a vig based on their reads lists than base on their mechanically meaningless "second VC" vote.

 

So what information would Lenlo's plan provide scum with here that they wouldn't have anyway?

 

And I recognize that I lie about my reads to an extent--I sometimes benefit from treating someone who I think is scum as town for a while, if I think they're more easily outed that way--but I doubt many people do this, and I wouldn't toss my "second" vote on them if I thought it didn't have a chance at succeeding for the same reason I wouldn't call them scum to their face without playing cat and mouse for a while first.

[Askthepizzaguy]

Pizza your ignoring me. I dont like it.

Well I'd better do something about that before you vote me.

 

I haven't been ignoring you, wolf. I've been catching up and responding to posts as I see them.

[Lenlo]

Well when you do get around to it, explain to me how every single thing I have done is scummy.

[Zander?]

 

Pizza your ignoring me. I dont like it.

Well I'd better do something about that before you vote me.

 

I haven't been ignoring you, wolf. I've been catching up and responding to posts as I see them.

 

 

[v] Pizza [/v]

 

Brother there may be some elaborate plan you have but man my gut is pinging so bad right now.  This is not what I seen from Nightmare homie i'm not feeling Town!Pizza at all.

[Shad_]

The smudge is a potent weapon. A smudge is when you paint someone as being wolfy without actually saying it or voting that way, put still putting the work out there so someone else can pick up the banner and lynch him.

 

Lenlo did a lot of work smudging Dice, and it forms a large portion of the basis of my suspicions on him.

 

He threw "the sink" at Dice by asking a ton of leading questions and things that if a townie were saying it, he'd have no problem emphasizing with a vote. Not just that one post, I listed several.

 

It was a concerted campaign by Lenlo to smudge Dice as being suspect.

Well, answer me this: Do you think a scum player is more likely to "smudge" somebody, or to avoid a form of behavior which that player routinely criticizes as town?

[Shad_]

Anyone else starting to think Nikon's lack of posting stems from randing wolf???

 

Not really.  Maybe it's just a consequence of having recently compiled a DM mafia library.  I'm pretty sure last time Nikon played, an average game in its entirety rarely reached 36 pages.  I saw a pretty consistent trend of old players returning for a game and being completely overwhelmed by quantity regardless of alignment.

 

I'm completely null on him.

[Askthepizzaguy]

A wolf who earns the "second VC" bullet isn't terribly deep though.

I didn't say they would be, but deeper than their partner the probable day lynchee.

 

And I don't see where it's any less obvious who so-and-so would shoot as a vig based on their reads lists than base on their mechanically meaningless "second VC" vote.

Not everyone does lists. The attempt would be in extracting more information than some are willing to give.

 

I'm already going to give you multiple "top" suspects so long as multiple wolves remain, or attempt to do so, some others are content to vote and chase one person and that's all.

 

And that's fair and valid and I'm not critiquing it, that's not the point. The point is, suggesting the idea, and then browbeating someone who disagrees with aspects of it, or all-caps raeg about how could it ever not be a townie idea, is how Lenlo is hiding the fact that he's implicitly calling Dice scummy, and himself the noble defender of the town with his good pro-town ideas.

 

That's when it becomes scummy, and yes, the plan could be used to help wolves if they anticipate it.

 

You disagree? Fine. You don't understand how? I can attempt again to explain.

 

The POINT: Lenlo is scum and must die/

[Askthepizzaguy]

Well when you do get around to it, explain to me how every single thing I have done is scummy.

With delightful pleasure, wolfenstein!

[Askthepizzaguy]

Well, answer me this: Do you think a scum player is more likely to "smudge" somebody, or to avoid a form of behavior which that player routinely criticizes as town?

I think it's far, far more likely they'd try to smudge someone without fully calculating out the repercussions, yes.

 

Not even a question.

[Zander?]

 

Anyone else starting to think Nikon's lack of posting stems from randing wolf???

 

Not really.  Maybe it's just a consequence of having recently compiled a DM mafia library.  I'm pretty sure last time Nikon played, an average game in its entirety rarely reached 36 pages.  I saw a pretty consistent trend of old players returning for a game and being completely overwhelmed by quantity regardless of alignment.

 

I'm completely null on him.

 

 

 

We shall see I guess

[Askthepizzaguy]

 

 

Pizza your ignoring me. I dont like it.

Well I'd better do something about that before you vote me.

 

I haven't been ignoring you, wolf. I've been catching up and responding to posts as I see them.

 

 

[v] Pizza [/v]

 

Brother there may be some elaborate plan you have but man my gut is pinging so bad right now.  This is not what I seen from Nightmare homie i'm not feeling Town!Pizza at all.

 

I'm aware. And there's no elaborate plan.

 

You're just incorrect. It happens, brother man. After I flip town, re-read what I said.

 

[Lenlo]

Pizza. Once again, did you even read dices logic? I still, after all this time, have no idea where his numbers came from! He was acting as if it was guaranteed we would hit a townie with a town controlled 2nd VC. I was arguing with him because I thought, and still do, that the logic he was using was horrible.

 

You know what I did when someone poked real holes into the idea, like Shad? I considered them. Guess what? Now im at the point that the entire thing was stupid and based on my misremembering the rules of the game.

[Askthepizzaguy]

Now, to you, Lenlo.

 

Your ass is mine. I'm fully caught up and I'm ready to rip you to shreds.

[Lenlo]

Pizza answer me this. 

 

Assume I flip town, because I will, what happens to all your arguments then? Everything you just described? How does the game look after that?

 

Because im pretty sure we are both dying this cycle. If I die, I am 99% of the time night lynching you. If you get lynched I assume the same will happen to me.

[Lenlo]

Now, to you, Lenlo.

 

Your ass is mine. I'm fully caught up and I'm ready to rip you to shreds.

Go for it.