Colors in the head

[grump]

What to you think will be the final form and use for this ? Will Moridin be part of it or not?

[reyler]

So far the only part we can be certain of is that it lets the ta'veren see what eachother is up to. Or maybe just lets Mat and Perrin check in on Rand. I can't recall any references to Mat seeing Perrin or the other way around, though my memory is unreliable. I like to think it also allows a certain unconscious trickling of information between them, kind of like the blurring of Rand and Lews Therin's memories. That's the only explanation short of authorial error I can come up with for how Mat recognised Min naked when he's never actually met her, or for why Perrin's POV somewhere in the middle of KoD has him think "Galina" instead of "Alyse". Those have been bothering me for a while now.

[Guest Barmacral]

But Mat did meet her I believe, back in the first book, and most likely at the end of the second.

[reyler]

Two seconds in a hallway when his mind is full of Angry Nynaeve counts for nothing. There was no proper introduction. And as for the space between TGH and TDR, where he apparently left for Tar Valon the morning after, until RJ comes out and says they sat down over a bowl of Rice Krispies and got to know eachother, I've seen nothing until that moment that implies he knew her to look at her.

[RobertAlexWillis]

And as for the space between TGH and TDR, where he apparently left for Tar Valon the morning after

 

I'm thinking he met her, enough to recognize her at least, in the aftermath of Falme, not at the White Tower. She was the one who found Rand after all, and Mat didn't leave with Verin until after they had gathered with Moiraine (albeit briefly) and made some plans while Rand was out. (We didn't see that meeting, of course, but it had to have happened). RJ doesn't always include details he doesn't think are important to the story (unlike the number and nicknames of the seed pearls on Elayne's dress), but Mat almost certainly met her during that time.

[Guest Fire Lord]

My memory is unreliable as well (though it's not that long since I read KoD) :D , but if Perrin indeed thinks Galina instead of Alyse, how is that explained?

[reyler]

On Galina vs Alyse: At first I thought that was just an accident that nobody noticed, on the same level as losing track of Erian at the Cleansing. I just added it in there in case it was intentional. Then it fits. I wish I remembered where exactly I found it.

 

And regarding Min, the aftermath of Falme is what I meant. I don't agree that a Mat/Min meeting *has* to have happened. Any time later in the series that Mat has encountered somebody he met earlier on, there's always some level of "____, he thought her name was", or something like it. The Amyrlin festivities in Salidar are full of it. Even his recollection of Shiaine is hesitant. Not only does he recognise Min with no trouble, whom he hadn't had the opportunity to meet again in a year and a half, during which she'd altered her appearance to the point where Perrin takes a moment, but he isn't surprised to see her, either. His only surprise is at her nudity (and Rand's). I'm sorry, but that just doesn't hold together. It could just be an Erian moment, or it could be one of those things that RJ waves under our noses that don't mean anything until later, like Shaider Haran's prototype in TDR.

[Guest Fire Lord]

Hmm, very interesting. I must admit, I had always thought of the colors as just that, colors, I had never given them any other attributes apart the obvious ones.

And I agree, Mat's memories are splotchy at best. And yes, he wasn't surprised, considering he must have known Rand was already interested in another woman (Elayne, Tear), and possibly even Aviendha.

Very suspicious.

 

Some sort of unconscious telepathy?

[Cocaloch]

Mat talks about Min in tEOTW, in the ways.

[grump]

Perrin and Mat see Rand. But Rand has only seen Moridin? Is that right?

[Gentled Ben]

No, Rand has seen Perrin and Mat, also. In fact, each of them have seen each of the others, but only Rand has seen Moridin, as Rand is the only one to cross streams of Balefire with him. Saying "only Rand has seen Moridin" is not the same as saying "Rand has only seen Moridin," in case you meant something other than what you wrote.

[Beowolf]

Aren't they supposed to be Ta'veren related? But... do we know Mat, Rand, and Perrin are the only Ta'veren we've met thus far? Surely there must be others, if much weaker in power than the Grand 3...

[Mat is the Boss]

There`s only three taveren at the moment. Had there been any more, they would have been drawn to Rand.

[Kaznen]

RJ has hinted that there might be others. But not as important as the Three.

 

I took the "seeing what the others are up to" as a ta'veren thing because those three are linked. Rand's success depends on the other two living to TG. Every one else is replaceable, albeit not easily for some of them.

 

I also think it is the pattern's way of saying they need to get back together.

[Tithen]

Coultn't Mat have seen Min in Cairhien?

 

Or maybe it was just Perrin who saw her, Mat might have left before she came. I don't have my books here, si I can't check...

[Fryn]

Coca is right. The chapter in question is "What Follows in Shadow". Mat not only mentions Min from Baerlon, but seems to recall the situation rather well (The memory was also before he acquired the dagger so there was no reason to have his memory muddled when thinking of min).

 

"I don't see how she [Min] saw anything about any of us," Mat said with a grin. "As I remember it, she spent most of her time looking at Rand." Two lines later Rand gives a description of Min.

 

Personally I don't see the colors transfering any hidden knowledge. Basically anytime they think of one of the others they see what they are doing. The images are growing stronger, because Rand has a deep need to have them closer and he is calling them of sorts. It seems to be an extension of what was keeping Mat and Perrin by Rands side. Even that might be stretching it but both Perrin and Mat have commented on the fact that they feel Rand needs them.

 

Forgot to add. At one point Rand sees Mat with Tuon and has no clue who she is. Rand even gets frustrated that Mat is off having fun with women while he needs Mat's help. This was also around the time Rand was trying to work out who the Daughter of the nine moons. Had the knowledge been transfered Rand would of known that the meeting with Semi was a trap since he would know Mat was traveling with her instead.

[reyler]

Yeah, I read that part. Rand mentioned her first, and Moiraine expanded on the subject before Mat chimed in. And I think that was more about getting Rand in trouble with Egwene and watching him squirm. He brought up Else Grinwell for the same reason, whom he'd had quite a bit more time around. And he took a minute to recognise her in the Tower less than a year later (by that time it was actually either Lanfear or Mesaana, but that's irrelevant). And you're going to tell me that Rand's description of a girl with short cropped hair in boy's clothes is what Mat saw to recognise in his ta'vision two years later? Aviendha killing Asmodean has a stronger case than that. *My* memory isn't that good, and I haven't had the bulk of it erased and written over... that I know of.

 

And I didn't necessarily state that a filtering of memories was absolutely going on. It was just the only way I could explain something that didn't make sense, and something else that was otherwise just a slip of the typewriter. But if that is the case, it's certainly not a conscious thing. And Rand not recognising Tuon isn't quite proof; it took a very long time to assimilate more than just random scraps of Lews Therin's knowledge. And with how strong a ta'veren Rand is, even compared to the other two, I would expect an uneven flow.

[RobertAlexWillis]

I don't agree that a Mat/Min meeting *has* to have happened.

 

OK ... but are you denying that it could have happened? In the aftermath of Falme, there was some meeting and talking we didn't see, because when Rand woke up, Moiraine was there and knew where everyone had gone. Min was there. Mat was there. Why wouldn't they meet?

 

Occam's razor says that is a much more likely explanation than color induced memory transfer.

[reyler]

OK ... but are you denying that it could have happened? In the aftermath of Falme' date=' there was [i']some[/i] meeting and talking we didn't see, because when Rand woke up, Moiraine was there and knew where everyone had gone. Min was there. Mat was there. Why wouldn't they meet?

 

I'm not denying it at all. Obviously it must have happened, if no more complex explanation is behind it. I'm just saying that, since we never actually saw them in company, or even in the same scene except for a minute in Baerlon, we can only assume they've "met" met. And making assumptions on anything in WoT is kind of risky.

 

And even if we make that assumption, it's still a stretch for him to be surprised at seeing her together romantically with Rand a year-plus later only because they're naked. Again, I'm not saying the transfer idea is the only thing that makes sense; I'm just trying to give RJ more credit.

[RobertAlexWillis]

Well, he's said in other situations that he'll leave out details that aren't vital to the advancement of the story (like the fact that Semirhage was at Shadar Logoth during the Cleansing, but we never see her). I think this falls into that category.

[reyler]

Well, perhaps so. But at the same time, there hasn't since been anything that happened in the story, important or not, that required Semirhage to have been at the Cleansing, just to provide some literary foundation for that later event. That might never have come up at all, except that somebody asked about it. We only know that she was there because RJ said so later.

 

But then, we only know for sure Sammael is dead because RJ said so later (and people still doubt it anyway). We were just supposed to take it for granted that he was, despite no in-text certainty. So I guess the same could be said for Mat recognising Min. I still don't buy it, but I always accept in advance the possibility of being wrong.