Ragnarok Game Thread - Game Over, Town Wins!

[Songstress]

Hating myself a lot right now, my alarm goes off in 4 hours

 

One more person to go, then I'll post my summaries and conclusion from the Wish ISO.

[Taborline]

 

 

For right now, I am going to vote: Wishleste. My instincts haven't really changed on them; the avoiding explanations, not answering questions, lots of comments that don't really say anything. I would be pretty surprised if they turned out not to be scum.

 

This vote screams bus. 

 

 

Tab is another one I haven't figured out, and this is a good point.

 

 

 

For right now, I am going to vote: Wishleste. My instincts haven't really changed on them; the avoiding explanations, not answering questions, lots of comments that don't really say anything. I would be pretty surprised if they turned out not to be scum.

 

This vote screams bus. 

 

 

But if all three of us were scum, why would I vote Verb on D1, list him as suspicious from the beginning, and also go after Wish? I could have just kept my vote on Verb on D2, but instead I went with what I had seen from my investigations of Wish.

 

 

Why couldn't this be a situation of just the 2 of you being scum, and Verb isn't? Verb's alignment isn't a factor in this situation anyway. If you're scum, you saw that Wish was going down, and hopped on.

 

 

But again, why do that? Verb was popular on people's scum lists, why not push the train to Verb that day instead? I hardly hopped on, I had been looking at Wish already, it wasn't as if I changed tack to go with the flow.

[Songstress]

Tina - first mention of Tina is to ask Lenlo why he prefers her lynch over Pral in #1012. Lists her within the null section of her sliding scale in #1039.  Lists her as town for pushing/questioning the people around her, including Wishleste, in her reads chart #1331 - notes she is not sure why Cory was so stuck on her being scum.  Says she's not sure she agrees with Key's characterization of Tina's vote on Ocicat as an easy target and questions whether it was opportunistic (#1776). Lists her as town in reads list #2085 (about 3 votes into their lynch).  Again listed as town in #2178 reads list. // Appears to have subtly defended Tina against Lenlo and Key, and town read seems to be stronger than I would have expected for little reasoning.  Does not interact with Tina directly at all.  Decent suspect to be a teammate.
 
Leelou - Quotes my interaction with Verbal on the Verb/Leelou/Cory situation early D1 and talks about the concept of using Leelou and Verbal's interactions to read them - then writes it off as meta and decides to stay away from it (#992). Lists her just above Tina in the sliding scale reads list in #1039 - apparently null.  Has her at "null-towny": in her reads chart in #1331, citing lack of content and interaction, unsure how to read her, slight town based on Cory's town read of her.  Downgrades her null-towny to closer to null based on discussion with Cory that his town read was not strong (posts 1336, 1342, 1345).  Says she plans to re-evaluate her read of Leelou based on not trusting Cory's soul reads after Pral lynch (#1592). Asks Taborline to comment on her read of Leelou in #1776, later also points out Cory asking me to clarify my "iffy" feelings on Leelou.  Lists Leelou as town in #2085. Interacts directly with Leelou regarding her assumption that she is a roleblocker based on character in #2108.  Listed as town in #2178.  Directs comment at Leelou in #2198 pointing out that Verb has been lurking and there's no reason to clear him as town, so she should lynch him too.  Responds to Leelou's reason for voting Wishleste in #2200 by saying "good thing you voted us then".  Again urges Leelou to lynch Verbal in #2203.  Point of clarification in a Celeste/Sili interaction that she did not attack Leelou in the Leelou/Cory/Talya discussion (#2254). //  Very little direct interaction with Leelou - as opposed to how she handled Tina, she sheeped Cory's read on Leelou, and solicited others for their opinions of her.  Most direct interaction came when their lynch was certain, and she appears to be appealing to Leelou as a townie.  Does not look as likely to me that they are teammates based on WIsh's actions.
 
Verbal - Asks Cory to explain why he would shoot Verb/Pral/Taborline, classifies them as inactive and asks what makes them scummy (post #591). Quotes my interaction with Verbal on the Verb/Leelou/Cory situation early D1 and talks about the concept of using Leelou and Verbal's interactions to read them - then writes it off as meta and decides to stay away from it (#992). Pokes at Verbal in that same post about his denial that he is appealing to meta when he states it is unlikely that they are scum together due to that meta.  Lists Verbal in the low null range on the sliding scale reads list #1039.  List Verb as null in #1331, citing lack of content aside from echoing/agreeing with others' posts - notes most substance has been in discussing his meta with Leelou and that they are most likely v/v, not v/w or w/w.  Mentions Mish's null read on Verb as part of her casing Mish in #1558.  Mentions Key wants more from Verb in #1776, as well as Cory's note that he wants Verb resolved.  #2085 lists Verb as town by POE.  Verb listed as town in #2178. Directs comment at Leelou in #2198 pointing out that Verb has been lurking and there's no reason to clear him as town, so she should lynch him too.  Again urges Leelou to lynch Verbal in #2203, responding to Leelou's comment that she has him listed as town by POE with "who knows, lynch him".  // The only direct interaction with Verbal is to poke at him about denying that he's appealing to meta to read him and Leelou.  May have soft-defended him when Cory suggested shooting him/Pral/Tab.  Has him as null all of D1, points out others' null reads of him, then suddenly lists him as town by virtue of POE.  Near the end of the lynch train on her, she urges Leelou to lynch Verbal twice.  This reads to me like extreme WIFOM from mafia whose lynch was certain, and I can't make a lot of sense of it.
 
Eldrick - Mentions the "Eldrick = Loki" theory and John Snow's handling of it in #373.  Quotes Lenlo's  Eldrick ISO Part 3 in #990 and discusses her opinion of the Eldrick = Loki theory, says she does not believe he is Loki but is willing to put him as a scum read.  Lists him as the bottom of the scum reads in the sliding scale in #1039. Is the 2nd vote on Eldrick's train in 1050/1052.  Uses one of Eldrick's posts in an attempt to cast suspicion on Sili in #1063. Misinterprets a Cory post as being about Eldrick, assumes his gut read is town and challenges him for his argument against lynching Eldrick today (#1066).  Has a lighthearted response in #1132 to Eldrick adding them to his WTL list.  Responds to Eldrick's request to create an easier-to-read reads list, then banters with him about her sig (#1304, #1306). Lists as scum in #1331 for strange reactions to Snow and Verb, defensiveness, uncertain and indecisive reads.  Discusses with Eldrick the number of people she noted as "Cory thinks they're town" in her reads list, and clarifies that her problem with him is that he appears to be hunting for Loki and not for mafia (#1356).  Responds to Eldrick's suggestion that she and Celeste compare notes on the QT and unify their reads that they don't have a QT (#1373). Notes in #1568 that she mixes up Eldrick and Ocicat.  Promises to ISO/look further at Eldrick in #1590, along with Snow and Ocicat. Responds to Eldrick's question in #1593 regarding the best use of night actions. Quotes Eldrick/Mish discussion regarding Loki's win condition not fitting a cult leader and Mish's paranoia, and refers to it as WIFOM (#1731).  Points out Cory's note that he wants Eldrick's slot resolved in #1776 - also indicates confusion about a post by Dice referencing an exchange between Eldrick and Snow with regard to PR's.  Lists Eldrick as town by POE in #2085, town in #2178.  // Quite a bit of interaction early game, and had him as a mafia read all of D1 before calling him town by POE on D2.  This doesn't read to me as distancing/bussing - I doubt he is mafia, although it's a possibility.
 
Tab - Early fluff interaction about playing the piano (#577).  Asks Cory to explain why he would shoot Verb/Pral/Taborline, classifies them as inactive and asks what makes them scummy (post #591). Specifically notes Taborline when disagreeing with Lenlo over getting rid of inactives (#1012).  Listed in low null/mafia end of sliding scale in #1039. In #1133 appeals directly to Tab to clear up her "null-ness". Responds to Taborline's questions/comments in ISOs part 1 (#1290), part 2 (#1294),  part 3 (#1301). Listed as "null-towny" in reads chart #1331, stating she seemed "very null" to her at the beginning but is appreciating her ISO's of other people (including Wishleste).  Responds to a thank you from Taborline for her ISO of Mish/Talya (#1711).  Asks Taborline to comment on her read on Leelou in #1776, and points out Cory "shading" Taborline.  Also in that post, she quotes Lenlo's ISO of Taborline, and states she doesn't know if Len's questions about Taborline's thoughts with regard to Sooh were answered. Suddenly, #2085 lists Tab as scummy.  Has a weird interchange in #2170 where Tab calls her post #2147 not helpful, and she says she's only trying to save her own behind.  Lists as scum in #2178. Tells Tab in #2183 that she can go ahead and lynch them now because if Lenlo is Loki she is probably vanilla.  Accuses Taborline of lurking and popping in to say they were scummy, and then lurking some more and popping in to vote (#2198).  //  There are some very strange interactions here - she appeared to be soft defending Tab twice when talking about inactives, listing her as null, then moving her up to townish in her reads, responding to her ISOs, then suddenly she has Tab as mafia and tells her to go ahead and lynch them.  I see a pretty good chance Tab might be mafia, this feels like it could be distancing.
 
Lenlo - Lots of buddying early in the game, had him as a strong town read for most of D1 and D2, then during their lynch latches onto Lenlo's argument against her push on John Snow and declares Lenlo is Loki.  I can't see them as being teammates here.
 
Mish - not even going to bother sorting the ISO for this one, there is just no way in my mind they are teammates.
 
Talya - Wish cased Talya D1 as well, and it has a similar feel to her push on Mish.  Unlikely to be teammates - more possible than Mish, but I don't think so.
 
Snow - There is some question because of the weird deal with Wish predicting his hammer on their train, and him guessing their character correctly (although i suppose it's completely possible with the hinting she gave about thinking she was a roleblocker that he could be familiar enough with the source material - or Wiki it - to figure it out).  Still, his annoyance at her misrepping him D1 felt genuine to me, and Wish's push to try to direct attention to him as possible Loki/mafia because she assumed she roleblocked him... that makes me think it's very unlikely that he's mafia.
 
Oci/AJ - In her first post of the game (#373) she tries to correlate Sili's distancing from her joke vote as teammates in TUS to Sili's calling out Ocicat for his mistake/joke vote.  Comments on Ocicat's experience level in #574.  Decides to pressure Oci per discussion between Key and Celeste and asks him what his strategy is for the game and how he thinks he is contributing/being pro-town (#587), then calls him out for not answering the second question in #607.  Asks Mish to explain how she would look bad because of Ocicat linking her to Wishleste if they were scum/scum (#987). Asks Lenlo to comment on Ocicat and Talya (#1005), then responds to his comments in #1008, calling his "I wouldn't shed a tear if he got lynched" harsh but understandable, and promises to look over Oci's interactions with Celeste.  Lists Ocicat as second to lowest in the sliding scale #1039. Notes that she disagrees with Celeste's read - Celeste thinks Oci is town and she does not understand why (#1044).  Responds to Cory's disagreement with her read and his take on Ocicat in #1056 by simply stating that she thinks he's a sweetie.  Appeals to Lenlo as her stronger town read for his take on Ocicat (#1072).  Responds to Ocicat's "just lynch me" when his train was at 4 votes by encouraging him that he can still save himself and his train was only one vote over "the other wagon" (#1084).  Responds to Ocicat's unvote of Pral in #1103 when he saw Pral reading the thread.  States Mish and Ocicat are scummier than Wishleste (#1186 - in line responses to Mish's case), denies ties to Ocicat and denies he was trying to defend them. Notes she has limited experience from Ocicat from the Usual Suspects game where he was a teammate but posted only a few times (#1290) - reiterates that she and Celeste disagree on Ocicat's alignment and she thinks Oci is scum.   Explains further interactions with Ocicat as pointed out by Taborline in part 2 ISO (#1294).  Listed as scum in #1331 for poor reaction to pressure, OMGUSing and sheeping Cory. Points out to Ocicat in #1343 that Cory was protecting him.  Notes in response to Mish (#1539) that she and Celeste didn't "brush off" Ocicat's linking them with her, they didn't notice it.  States in #1568 that she mixes up Oci and Eldrick.  Promises to look further at Ocicat (as well as Snow and Eldrick) in #1590.  Responds to Ocicat's input in #1736 regarding her Loki as cult recruiter suggestion.  Isn't sure she agrees with Key that Tina's vote on Ocicat was an easy target, and asks if it was opportunistic (#1776) - also commends Ocicat on his good points when he was pointing out suspicious behavior from Sili and Mish. Lists as town by POE in #2085, and #2178. // There are a ton of interactions here, and it's fairly disjointed.  Gun to my head, I think they're not the most likely to be teammates, it reads similar to how she handled Eldrick. 
 
Sooh/BFG - First mention is in her sliding scale reads list, where Sooh is midway between town and null (#1039).  Next mention is in response to Taborline's ISO part 3 (#1301), explaining that her town read is based on tone and attitude, plus Cory's town read.  Reiterates the same explanation for town reading her in #1331.  States she plans to re-evaluate read in #1592 based on no longer trusting Cory's soul reads. Quotes Cory's town read of her early game in #1774.  Pokes at Cory/Sooh conflict in #1776 and says she doesn't know what to make of it.  Also in that multiquote post, points out Sooh's suspicion of Talya as a good point, and states she is reading Sooh as town.  Listed as town by POE in #2085, and notes she likes BFG's calmness and good analysis so far.  Listed as town in #2178.  Explains her town read on Sooh/BFG in #2198 - has liked BFG's posts.  Final reads list in #2261 lists Sooh/BFG as scum, specifically because BFG was remaining calm (which was a reason for town reading her earlier) and because Sooh was sheeping the thread's read of Wishleste as scum. //  There isn't much interaction here and I'm not sure what to make of it.  She was basically town reading her the entire game, until the final dying WIFOM reads.  She also tried to piggyback on Sooh's suspicion of Talya, which makes me lean town a bit.

 

=========

 

In order of least likely to be mafia with Wishleste to most, in my (admittedly addled from need for sleep) opinion:

 

Mish

Talya

Snow

Lenlo

Leelou

Sooh/BFG

Eldrick

Ocicat/AJ

Taborline

Tina

 

Verbal???

 

I don't know where to put Verb in that continuum, because 1) his participation has been so insanely low, and 2) Wishleste's handling of him was just really weird, especially D2.  I have a really hard time seeing Verb as town here, but I can't fathom why Wish kept pushing Leelou to lynch him if he's a teammate... >.<  Regardless, I've had a bad feeling about him from D1, and he hasn't shown anything that makes me question it.

 

My WTL today includes Verbal, Tina and Taborline.

 

 

Before I pass out at my computer, I will [v]Verbal[/v].

 

Will be around as much as I can tomorrow if I need to change my vote.

[Taborline]

Wow, Tress, that's impressive.

[Leelou]

If we decide Verbal over Tina for today, I want to hammer him. ;) 

[Leelou]

[v]Tina[/v]

[Eldrick4221]

Wow, Tress, that's impressive.

Seriously. I can't see scum going into that much detail. You have just earned a solid town read from me.

[Talya]

*hands Leelou her hammer* Already for you all polished.

 

I need to read through that Tress, that is extensive, I think you need the day off work and sleep. I will have a good read of it later. Day off and I have another migraine coming on...and still need to pick car up from OT and service.

[Kivam]

Vote Count

 

Talya (1) - Taborline

AJ (1) - Tina

Verbal (4) - Andrej, Lenlo, Talya, Tress

Lenlo (1) - Eldrick

Tina (1) Leelou

 

7 to lynch

 

[Leelou]

*hands Leelou her hammer* Already for you all polished.

 

OOOOHH Shiny! 

[Lenlo]

 

Wow, Tress, that's impressive.

Seriously. I can't see scum going into that much detail. You have just earned a solid town read from me.

I've never understood the "scum don't pit as much effort in" argument.

 

And Eld, there's no questions you want me to answer? There's no possibility of me being town in your world at all? I'm trying to work with you here man. Cause I've talked about each of those multiple times.

[michellem]

I'm sorry for my lack of contribution this Day. My body has NOT been my friend. Today I have a horrible headache. I'll skim the 10 or so pages I haven't read, but I won't be able to give much in the way of sensible thoughts. I'll be around to keep half an eye on how things are going tho.

[Andrej]

Mish comes in and basically says that Tabor is looking worse than the last game (I think HP), less interactive more ISOs, I think AJ states that Tabor is looking better than when she was mafia (maybe Middle Earth?) apparent contradiction between the 2 is interesting.

Still catching up but figured I would respond to this first. Allow me to clarify.

 

In Middle Earth Taborline was VT and got modkilled for inactivity. When I started my initial read I saw that she was engaged and making some rather thorough posts, which is remarkably different than how she was in ME. You were in the HP game, weren't you? Do you agree with Mish on the point she makes regarding Tabor? I didn't specify earlier what her alignment was so I'm not sure how you're drawing the conclusion I meant she was mafia in that game.

[michellem]

I agree on the lots of effort doesn't automatically mean town. But as far as I can see Tress posts are objetive and does not contain any sort of misrep or a feeling of pushing an agenda. Her conlusion are logical. That gives town points for me. I like her conclusions about Tab and Tina, and them + Verb is where our focus should be.

 

 

I think Wishleste's final reads need more analysis. I'd be surprised if she didn't put any of her teammates in her scum/loki lists. She must have known she was going down, and that these read lists would be analyzed later.

 

Thank you Tress for the notes.

Snippets from said notes:

#2085 - gives reads list - top scum as Snow, scummy as Tress, Mish, Sili, Tab, town as Talya, Sooh/BFG, Lenlo, Leelou, Oci, Eldrick, Tina and Verbal.  Has Sooh/Verb/Oci/Eldrick as town by POE, plus she likes BFG's calmness and good analysis.

#2178 - updates reads list to Loki = Lenlo, Scum = Sili, Tab, Mish, Tress, Town = Sooh/BFG, Tina, Eldrick, Leelou, Ocicat, Verbal. (leaves off Snow entirely)

#2261 - Posts new reads list - Scum = Snow (calls him out specifically and suggests that he might hammer them), BFG (for remaining calm and trying to see a situation in which they weren't mafia/Loki, and for Sooh sheeping the thread read of Wishleste as scum), Sili (for white knighting them), Mish (doesn't like her suspicions of Talya "and other town").  Loki = Lenlo.  Town = everyone else.

 

#2085 - Snow, Tress, Mish, Sili, Tab

#2176 - Sili, Tab, Mish, Tress (Snow notably not listed as town either)

#2261 - Snow, BFG, Sili, Mish

 

Mish is consistently on all 3. Even though she's solidly town in my book, this is a point against her.

Tab is in the first 2, but then dropped off the last one. not sure what to think about that.

Snow listed on first and last. Not mentioned at all on the second one. This looks bad for him too.

 

I'd be surprised if there wasn't scum in one of these.

 

First of all, have you read through Snow's ISO yet? Or are you still pushing him out of undefined reasons? Have you read any of the arguments for why he is probably town? I'm not liking this tunnel.

 

I've been scum on Wisheste's lists ever since I started pressuring them D1. Nothing mindblowing about that. Unless you have anything else to use against me, don't even try to go there. It's a bad look.

 

Why don't you point out that Tress was on two lists and then dropped? It looks bad for Snow and unsure for Tab.

 

I'm starting to feel less good about you here, Eld.

[Taborline]

Grays for me currently are Taborline and Talya. I need to read Talya more but I know she's very capable as a wolf so she will be a late game read. Taborline jumped early onto the Celeste wagon but as I noted on D1 she had some strange wording to her posts when talking about them. I would need to ISO to give examples but she mentioned distancing a lot when talking about Celeste or Wish and their interactions with others. Could be TMI. I think Mish's point about her ISO heavy filter is valid. I've seen scum hide behind that sort of thing before. BFG goes here too, for now. Thought Sooh looked okay D1 but I'll reset that read and see what sort of stuff she produces.

 

I wanted to come back to this because it's been bothering me. I do want to point out that the reason I used the word distancing is because Wish had just said "Sili seems to get serious way too quickly. That just happened in the last game we were playing in. And you wanna know why? He was distancing from me, who was joke voting" and in my ISO where I quote her, I was asking if she couldn't be doing the exact same thing again, by saying:

 

 

Which, considering she came into the game mentioning her way of reading Sili, makes sense. If you just played with someone and got a feel for their style, wanting to suss them out quickly this time is a good option. Could be distancing again, but I read Sili as Town so far.

[Taborline]

Ugh, second quote is me but is ate my code.

[Eldrick4221]

I'm not tunneling or pushing snow. I'm at a loss as to who could be scum, so I'm trying to look at different information. I said it looked bad because she didn't list him as town for any of the 3 lists.

 

I said the same for you, but I'm also townreading you, and said as much. I added you to the list because it would have been posted out if I didn't list a connection.

 

Like I did with tress. I somehow didn't notice her being listed twice. She gets the same unsure from this info that Tab does.

 

This info doesn't mean much by itself. I just thought it deserved looking at.

 

As for looking at his ISO, no I haven't. I never glean much from an ISO, and rarely finish one. I'm also really bad at taking notes, and usually just go from memory. I know it's a bad way to play, but good habits take time to develop.

[Andrej]

Tabor are you gonna stay on Talya?

 

What is your read on Verb or any of the others trains?

[Eldrick4221]

 

 

Wow, Tress, that's impressive.

Seriously. I can't see scum going into that much detail. You have just earned a solid town read from me.

I've never understood the "scum don't pit as much effort in" argument.

 

And Eld, there's no questions you want me to answer? There's no possibility of me being town in your world at all? I'm trying to work with you here man. Cause I've talked about each of those multiple times.

Of course it's possible that you're town. I'm probably wrong about you being Loki. But some ideas are just hard to shake.

 

And just cuz you talked about them doesn't makes the points invalid. But I'm not getting support in the matter, so I might as well drop it.

 

[unvote]

[Eldrick4221]

I'm not gonna be around for the deadline. I should already be asleep.

 

I'm already half asleep now, and can't think of a good reason to vote anyone. I'm sitting this one out. Sorry.

[Andrej]

[Leelou]

I actually don't like that there isn't a counter wagon at this point. 

[Andrej]

Kinda hard when you have people voluntarily leaving their votes off or others that continue to quote stuff from pages ago instead of addressing their suspects with DL in about 6-7 hours.

[Lenlo]

I actually don't like that there isn't a counter wagon at this point. 

Its entirely possible they tried to start one, what with all the 1 vote trains going around.

 

Sometimes though as scum you just cant stop a lynch and its better not to try.

[Kivam]

 

Vote Count

 

Talya (1) - Taborline

AJ (1) - Tina

Verbal (4) - Andrej, Lenlo, Talya, Tress

Tina (1) Leelou

 

7 to lynch