Ragnarok Game Thread - Game Over, Town Wins!

[Andrej]

 

Got a little time to make this post.

 

In the past I have been able to read Sili well but I haven´t played with him in a long time. From the start he looked town, jumping all around. Then I was starting to think that he was setting up platforms for future lynches. But then I really liked his vote on Ocicat. I think post 342 was good and also that he questioned Celeste. I didn´t like Ocicat´s answer. I will +1 Sili´s reasons and 

 

[unvote]

 

[v] Ocicat [/v]

 

 

 

 

 

Something about Leelou-Verbal-CoryKey-Talya seems strange. 

 

1. Cory mentions mafia could have had four days to chat. I don´t think that shows any alignment.

2. Leelou votes him for possible tmi. That seemed like a weak vote.

3. Then Cory gets annoyed and, after getting permission from Kivam, says that he and Key has shared a qt for four days.

4. Leelou then asks Verbal what he thinks about that. Not strange that he asks him of his oppinion but...

5. Verbal then says that (basically) annoyed Cory is town. And then Leelou unvote and say that she wanted to clear Cory early. 

 

I thought the vote in itself was weak but she is now townreading Cory because of this. It seems like a bit too easy. 

 

But then we have Talya that didn´t want Leelou to vote or mention anything so that Cory could have revealed more (?? I think that is what she means.) She says that this doesn´t look good for Leelou. What does this mean? That she thinks Cory was mafia and Leelou too? Leelou thinks Talya jumped on it too quick. Talya said that she did so because Leelou never gave a reason to begin with. (But when she did, she didn´t think Leelou should have mentioned it.) 

 

Cory: what do you think about Leelou, Verbal and Talya?

Leelou: what do you think about Talya?

Talya: What do you think about Leelou? 

Verb: What do you think about Leelou and Talya? 

 

I usually don´t ask questions like this but it seems like it was a "knot" that has been left unsolved. (At least to me.)

 

 

 

Sooh looks town to me so far. I think she answered Snow good when he questioned her in the beginning.

 

 

Not really digging this post. Seems like an easy reason to jump onto one of the wagons, and something I've noted about Tina in the past is that she votes opportunistically as scum.

 

Also find it interesting that the backing for her vote is agreeing with someone's read and then she goes on to do a lot more talking about the Talya/Leelou situation.

 

Not a fan of Tina's vote. I think Ocicat is a hella easy target.

 

 

Sad I didn't get the chance to play with you guys.

[Andrej]

Of those still alive I would probably have JS and Lenlo as ~stronger town reads. Sooh isn't looking bad either.

 

Taborline seemed okay. Leelou might be a possible light green read.

 

Null on mostly everyone else.

 

Orange on Tina for the above post.

 

Thru pg 28 now

[Andrej]

With Misheru's endorsement of Celeste, I feel it worth noting that Celeste had called on her specifically for thoughts before.

 

 

iirc I saw Mish earlier trying to pin Celeste's WK attempt on my slot as w/w

[Andrej]

I find Verbal's silence to be odd. Is he not active usually?

 

Super out of place comment.

 

Afaict Celeste has never played with Verbal, so why think the silence was odd?

[Andrej]

 

Also with what Mish pointed out with the Verbal/Tayla/Leelou chat it looks odd to be but I can't quite but my finger on it.

 

[v]Tayla[/v] It's a gut vibe mostly. 

 

Worth noting along with the post above where she's calling Verb odd. Mentions him again here but votes Talya instead. Not sure what it says about Verbal but seems like pretty obvious cog-dis on Celeste's part (hindsight bias )

[Andrej]

Just based on pg 36 Taborline is either vastly improved from the Middle Earth game or she severely underwhelmed in that one.

 

I like her response to Cory's questions re. Tina's post though, reads sincere enough.

 

Would put her as light green moving forward.

[Andrej]

Stopping at pg 43 for the night.

 

Hoping to see more posts from others to get a general feel of where people are regarding everyone - it'll be important for me as I read through and get caught up.

[John Snow]

 

On the same note, given the choice between lynching mafia and Loki, what's the best play? I assume mafia has roles too, so they gain info from it. On the other hand, town's investigative roles don't need Loki dead to know what they do. On the other hand, he sort of blocks our doc. 

 

What did you mean by this?

 

 

Our doc doesn't (didn't now) know they were the doc, therefore couldn't effectively use their role. 

[Songstress]

In the middle of checking through Wish's posts for interactions with the remaining living players.  There's a lot - on page 3 of 9 in the ISO but I'm exhausted and won't finish tonight.  Will see if I have time in the morning but with my new work schedule I have to get up an hour earlier and I'm not very good with brain in the mornings.

 

The biggest thing that stood out to me so far is her hyper-buddying of Lenlo D1.  

 

More subtly, when Cory suggested if he had 3 shots he'd shoot Verb, Pral and Taborline, she classified them as inactive and asked why Cory thought they were scummy - then when Lenlo talked about getting rid of the inactives, she specifically noted herself, Taborline, Pral "and others (?)" and resisted the notion as not giving them enough time to prove they were town, and not giving enough information.  We know Pral was town - was she defending Tab here?  

 

Taborline's reaction to John Snow's vote right at the start of day struck me as a guilty conscience, and I'm starting to question my town read on her.  I'll try to look through more as time permits, to see if any other interactions catch my eye.

 

Really need more from Verbal, ASAP.  BFG and AJ have a little grace period to catch up as replacements in my opinion. 

[Talya]

Two of the kills have been cory and Sili. It's highly improbable that the mafia NK is being interfered with. Rough math puts it at like ~1%.

What if it's not the actions that are mixed up (which follows this above) but roles that have a result are sent to other people randomly? That would explain Eld and Mishs results the first night.

[John Snow]

 

Two of the kills have been cory and Sili. It's highly improbable that the mafia NK is being interfered with. Rough math puts it at like ~1%.

What if it's not the actions that are mixed up (which follows this above) but roles that have a result are sent to other people randomly? That would explain Eld and Mishs results the first night.

 

 

It's not impossible. I assume Dice's vig shot is what killed him, so that was redirected/mirrored as well. 

[Talya]

Also read last night that on D2 Tab admired to targeting Cory. I had missed it before and no one else had picked it up...I'm on phone at work but it's around page 86.

I can't see why she would admit to that if wolf?

[Talya]

There could be another vig out there or could be wolf had another shot, or a mirror which has been said

[John Snow]

 

Well I didn't get anything back last night, and I targeted you Eld. No idea what it did if anything

 

Same here. I targeted Cory.

 

 

Quoted for reference. 

 

Honestly, it's null imo. Mafia doesn't know what they do any more than we do. Very well could've told the truth in case of watcher/follower/tracker/etc. 

[Songstress]

Also read last night that on D2 Tab admired to targeting Cory. I had missed it before and no one else had picked it up...I'm on phone at work but it's around page 86.

I can't see why she would admit to that if wolf?

 

Why she might admit to it:  Tracker and Watcher results are in the game, and we don't know who they're on. 

[Songstress]

 

Two of the kills have been cory and Sili. It's highly improbable that the mafia NK is being interfered with. Rough math puts it at like ~1%.

What if it's not the actions that are mixed up (which follows this above) but roles that have a result are sent to other people randomly? That would explain Eld and Mishs results the first night.

 

 

I can't think of much that explains the result I got last night, to be honest.

[Talya]

Same here Tress that's what makes me believe I got someone else's stuff it doesn't fit my character.

 

And to Eld... Yes I threw caution to the wind and in put a name :p

[Niniel]

I don´t even know where to start. So much to read and so many posts. I have some time right now so I will just take it as it comes. First Sili´s list. 

 

Seems to me i should clear

Mish
Lenlo
Js
Verbal
Tress
Eldrick

And quasi town read

Tress


Leaving a small pool for mafia to hide in.

Sooh bfg
Tina
Talya
Ocicat
Taborline

 

 

Id remove oci and tina if push came to shuv... Possibly.

 

 

Right forgot lee. She is in scum too and next id remove talya or taborline to fit her in.

 

 

So his mafia team was Leelou and BFG, followed by Talya, Taborline, me and Oci. 

 

This is when I´m starting to doubt my mafia read on Leelou. As I said, I need to re-read her D2 content because as I remember she voted WishCeleste early. (Could be wrong.) I think I will start looking at these people anyway. Not sure why he put Verbal in the town list. 

[Niniel]

I decided to take a look at what people thought of WishCeleste during D2. Tress´  chart says that me, Dice, Taborline, Mish and Snow had WishCeleste as orange or red on D1. I haven´t checked that but had it in my mind when starting to read. 

 

 

I have only read to page 102 so I will need to continue when I get home from lunch. So far, what stands out for me most is Sooh and Talya. 

[Niniel]

This are two quotes that I will come back to later.

 

In #1912 Sooh says that WishCeleste is in orange but it might be because she doesn´t know them well. But in #2000 she says:

 

Guys, I have asked Kivam for a replacement, but I will play until one is in place. That may mean if he can't find anyone I'll play until I'm dead. I have been having some heavy thoughts lately, and have been having problems getting things done. Too much going on inside my head for me to be able to focus on the game. 

 

I understand the suspicions of me, and I will try my darndest to show you that I'm town. 

Doing a reread..and as I go will also ISO a few people that come to my attention.

 

I will put it all in an spoiler so read or not

 

 

 

 

Votes me and then has her convo with Sili (already talked about) - Null

2 times she says she is fiesty - I mention this, because I haven't seen much fiest here

When JS votes her Asks him if there is anything he wants to discuss - mention this below why not ask straight out

Says she isn't reading stuff on early D1 interations

Asks me about the "staged" thing

Would like to hear from Lenlo why he ISO'd me - After me and Mish had asked him

Asks Cory why he is town reading her - responds to his answer that she is trying to work where the read comes from and that she is trying to find wolves

Asks Tab how Leelou's maker her look questionable

Tries to see how Cory's head works, but not trying to badger him.

Not sure she can read Leelou very well.

Thinks Cory maybe Defensive or frustrated. says to Eld that Cory may be trying to gauge her back - Not feeling that she thinks town nor mafia here

 

This is her response to Cory

 

If you are a villager and want to make my job harder, IDC, that is how you used your time this game and I have to deal with that and work around you and try to figure it out anyway

 

If you think I'm a wolf I expect more fire from you than "Cory's reading my villager and I don't know why!" and I think that's a pretty idiotic line to take as a wolf but I've seen you do it before (and fool me, but fail at fooling anyone else in the process and losing to my team without a great deal of difficulty from our end) but that's just my opinion, man

You know probably more than anyone how hesitant I am as a villager to accuse anyone of being a wolf D1. I am never confident in my reads this early on. I nudged you to get a better read of your slot, and I got several things to think about. And yes, you're right. If I do think you are a wolf later on I will have to make a much stronger case against you. Both because this isn't a case, and because you're a much better wolf than to let yourself be caught by one little nudge like this. 

 

 

I put this here because I ISO'd out last game where she was villager, and in the first day she was making reads of people and asking questions a lot more than she has been here. In fact apart from the few direct questions, usually about her, she hasn't asked much. Even to JS when he voted her asked if there was anything he wanted to discuss. Why not ask straight out, "Why are you voting me" The town things to Cory doesn't really look like she is trying to find wolves or game solve.

 

Then we have a reads list. At this point she had said that she was trying to work Cory out and from the posts I got the impression she was fence sitting, but here she has Cory in her Town list. This list really lacks evidence or any kind of thought process. After reading her last game, she defnded people she thought town early on and why they were town. There has been none of that here. The bolded it odd. She can't read, me Leelou and Tina and yet she says she is going through the rest not on her list to see if she can find some suspects. The wording feels like she is not looking for wolves, but for people she could call wolves.

 

 

Let's see. So far I feel pretty good about:

Dice

Keyboose

John Snow

Sili

Lenlo

 

I always struggle to read:

Tina

Leelou

Talya

 

The rest are varying shades of gray for me at this point. I need to go through that pile and see if I can find some suspects.

 

Points out that Eld is different this game -

Responds to me about my post on her and Sili

Does an Eld ISO and asks him what makes him think Ocicat is Loki and curious what Lenlo thinks of her Eld ISO? - A part from the quetion to Ocicat, I didn't get anything from this, I'm not sure she does, null in it's self, that can happen

 

I might, closer to DL. 

 

Pral isn't a high volume poster, but usually at least he posts SOMETHING. 

 

^^ First moment she mentions Pral

 

Wow... that was a long read. I've been reading a page here and there at work today, but still I had to read the final 5 pages just now.

 

After Pral's re-entry to the thread I feel as though the votes on him are probably warranted. I was not a fan of the reads list at all. 

 

[v]Pralaya[/v]

 

^^ Votes Pral

 

Apparently I'm good at posting many posts, but not very memorable this game  Ah well. It could be worse I suppose. 

 

I am feeling very comfortable with Cory/Key this game, and if I'm mistaken, well then that's well played them. 

 

I feel Pral's list was very generic. He had some consensus reads, some simple reads and a couple of reads to which I was left confused. I'm happy with leaving my vote there for now. It is moveable of course, and seeing as EOD is at 6pm my time I should have plenty of time to stop by the thread tomorrow in between work (in the classroom when the kids are working and such ) and also after work. I will be around at EOD. 

 

I probably won't have much time for neither analysis nor real time interaction before then though. I will have more time towards the weekend for both. 

 

Adds more to her reasoning of what she thinks of Pral. I will need to read this in situ, because I have a feeling this is after others have already said it.

 

She does say she is open to a Verb lynch, but doesn't vote there.

Aslks Cory to look at Pral's blue for Tress. cory gives his reasons for why he didn't like Pral's list and she responds that this matches what she is thinking - If that is the case why didn't she say

Agrees she likes to pocket Cory, but as mafia she doesn't think that she would have been quite so ready to challenge Cory about his read. - I don't think she actually challenged him, not seriously, the fact she says she wouldn't do this as mafia doesn't sit well

 

 

 

Apparently I'm good at posting many posts, but not very memorable this game  Ah well. It could be worse I suppose. 
 
I am feeling very comfortable with Cory/Key this game, and if I'm mistaken, well then that's well played them. 
 
I feel Pral's list was very generic. He had some consensus reads, some simple reads and a couple of reads to which I was left confused. I'm happy with leaving my vote there for now. It is moveable of course, and seeing as EOD is at 6pm my time I should have plenty of time to stop by the thread tomorrow in between work (in the classroom when the kids are working and such ) and also after work. I will be around at EOD. 
 
I probably won't have much time for neither analysis nor real time interaction before then though. I will have more time towards the weekend for both.

Out of all the votes on me, this is the one which sounds off. The reasoning is a bit forced, as if just intended to put heat.

Consensus reads? Really? Maybe you should pay more attention to it.
Simple reads? Yes, for those who I don't know meta or not much content.
Confused reads? WHy don't you ask about it?

Low effort and not genuine.

 

I have paid attention.

You have a number of safe reads with people who have been town read by the majority of the game. These are your consensus reads.

 

Simple reads, why even add them? I've been sussed for less in the past.

 

Confused reads, I suppose that's a bad way of explaining it. They were the reads that made me confused when I read them.

 

You're right. This was low effort. It was an attempt to explain why I wasn't a fan of that post and why I wanted to vote Pral. Not genuine however, that is wrong. If I have time before EOD I'll go back and post more around this, but currently I'm supposed to learn to use like 5 new computer programs at once, so I can't really focus on the game.

 

 

^^ She admits it was low effort to him. I find it odd that she critises his reads list, when hers is extremely lacking with not reason

 

Hi guys. I kinda disappeared. Sorry about that. 

 

Mish, I think the people who were calling me feisty were in fact surprised by it, as I'm usually not in games. 

 

I do play differently here. Exactly why I can't tell you, except I tend to have good games and bad games. It depends a lot on how much energy I have to put into it I guess. 

 

Anyway. I think so far I feel pretty good about Sili, Lenlo, Tress, Mish, Eldrick, Taboo and JS.

 

I need to reread and ISO Tina, Talya and Leelou, as they are impossible to read for me usually. 

 

I'm even less sure about WishLeste and Ocicat. However, they might be this low in my list because I don't know them very well. 

 

And Verb is definitely bottom of my list. 

 

Come Monday Verb really needs to get some work done if he's Town. Because just saying "I'm town because" isn't cutting it for me. 

 

 

Going to try to get some ISOs done today, but I need to finish a report first. 

 

Her reads list from earlier. There are 5 days difference in the two lists and yet in her posts I can see no thought progression on why she has those reads. Sili, Lenlo and JS have not moved but no reasons why they are town.

Still me, Tina and Leelou are in Limbo - fair enough

Not thought on why Wisleste or Ocicat. She has Verb as read and yet hasn't voted and says he has work to do Monday.

 

 

 

 

TL:DR

 

There is no thought progression from Sooh on most of her reads. She has done a little questioning, but they haven't been deep questions and not much probing into anything. Has really only questioned people when it has concerned her, or asked other people (Len) what they think of her ISO.

 

I had felt her responses to me quite towny at the beginning. I thought her vote on Pral was opportunistic, no thought behind it and later added the bit about his reads list, after others did.

 

Sooh has now moved down my list. But I have a few questions for her.

 

@ Sooh

 

What is it that makes you suspicious of Wish/Celeste and Ocicat?

Why is Verb at the bottom of your list?

What makes you think Sili, JS, Mish, Tress, Tab and Lenlo town?

What do you think of Eld? (he's missing from your list I think)

Why did you ask Cory to look at Pral having Tress as blue? Why did you think this was suspicious?

 

Back to my reread

Ocicat has had some strange responses all the way through the game. I think his reactions sometimes come across as staged and almost theatrically edited. WishLeste is honestly in my orange because they have so many people suspecting them already and I needed to go back  and read them. Quite simply they are there because they were scum read by almost the entire town. 

 

Verb is at the bottom of my list because I don't recognize TownVerb who I find will spend more time solving and less time defending himself. 

 

Sili, Lenlo and JS became town reads for me early on. Mish, Taboo, Tress and Eldrick (who is in my town pile) have been doing a lot of work and thereby earned a place in my town. I have also taken advantage of Cory's reads, as I know they are good.

 

In terms of Pral's Tress read when you look at the two lists Cory posted, one from a known town game of Pral's and one from this game the blues in his list in the other game were much more elaborately explained. I felt like his town read of Tress was simple and not explained well enough to warrant a blue shade compared to some of his greens. 

 

Bold: she needs to go back and read their posts + they are scum read by almost the entire town. Is that a slip? Does she know who is town? 

 

Yep, sorry that was unclear, the wish bit was separate.

The bit about not feeling town from Sooh so far, is how I feel, and a few others do as well.

To summarise, Sooh and Wisheleste seem to be common in people's Wolfe lists, this is what makes me uneasy.

 

In #1752 Talya says she likes Wish better than Celeste and need to re-read.

 

In the quote above she says that she is uneasy with them being on people´s wolfie lists. 

 

 

 

 

Okay, will continue after lunch. Will probably take a few hours and then I have to get my daughter but I plan on continue this re-read later. 

[Eldrick4221]

I don't really think that point indicates anything, tbh. Players can be self conscious regardless of their alignment - after all - their 'life' is at stake. It's like saying just because someone is town they shouldn't be more thoughtful about how they word their posts and stuff.

 

Anyway - JS and Sooh sound pretty villagery to me from the beginning thus far.

 

I've never seen anyone (town or otherwise) call what they did scummy. I didn't like it, and it felt self-conscious. Of course town could be worried about it too, but that's not how it looks to me.

 

 

On the same note, given the choice between lynching mafia and Loki, what's the best play? I assume mafia has roles too, so they gain info from it. On the other hand, town's investigative roles don't need Loki dead to know what they do. On the other hand, he sort of blocks our doc. 

 

What did you mean by this?

 

 

He already answered, but I thought this was obvious. Doc didn't know he was the doc. Doc doesn't get a result back, and therefore wouldn't know until Loki was dead. Ergo, blocks the doc.

 

 

I find Verbal's silence to be odd. Is he not active usually?

 

Super out of place comment.

 

Afaict Celeste has never played with Verbal, so why think the silence was odd?

 

 

This point is moot IMO. How would you react to someone not posting on the thread for days, if you didn't know their meta. It would be odd, yes?

 

 

Two of the kills have been cory and Sili. It's highly improbable that the mafia NK is being interfered with. Rough math puts it at like ~1%.

What if it's not the actions that are mixed up (which follows this above) but roles that have a result are sent to other people randomly? That would explain Eld and Mishs results the first night.

 

 

On that point, I'd like some discussion comparing the last 2 nights. Who got the same kind of result both nights? I don't want specifics. I just want to tell what's going on in the same, see if we can nail down the idea that stuff is getting jumbled.

 

Everyone (execpt Talya, for obvious reasons) please answer:

My result N1 was/wasn't the same as my result N2

[Eldrick4221]

I'm not liking Leelou's play at all. She has contributed very little, and it seems that it going to continue for the foreseeable future. I sincerely hope that she isn't town, cuz this is hurting us if she is. I'm not seeing Town!Leelou at all this game, and she is firmly in my WTL

[Leelou]

I'm not liking Leelou's play at all. She has contributed very little, and it seems that it going to continue for the foreseeable future. I sincerely hope that she isn't town, cuz this is hurting us if she is. I'm not seeing Town!Leelou at all this game, and she is firmly in my WTL

 

Yeah, I've explained numerous times that I'm busy. For example: yesterday I was in meetings from 9:30-4. No time really at a computer. Got home and didn't feel like digging into the game. Today, I have portions of the day free, so I *should* have time to dig in. Unless anything urgent comes up, I'll be around. The game is too big/long for me to really have any content heavy posts from me because I just don't have the time right now to pour through 129 pages. And I'm going away on Saturday and won't be home until Tuesday morning. Hint - I won't be on during that time at all. 

 

So if my not being around puts me in your wtl pile, then whatever. I'm most likely VT anyways. I haven't had a result either night. 

[Leelou]

http://www.dragonmount.com/forums/topic/95348-ragnarok-game-thread-n2/page-123?do=findComment&comment=3543721

 

Leelou can you explain what it was you didn't like about Tina's list?

 

Yeah, they were all easy scum reads. Verb isn't really around, so he's coming off scummy. Cat was acting all weird, so easy scum read. I poked the CoryBear and made a read from it and people didn't really understand it, so I was scummy. Then there was wisheleste that was actually scum and the only scum read I was comfortable agreeing with her on. 

[Leelou]

 

http://www.dragonmount.com/forums/topic/95348-ragnarok-game-thread-n2/page-123?do=findComment&comment=3543721

 

Leelou can you explain what it was you didn't like about Tina's list?

 

Yeah, they were all easy scum reads. Verb isn't really around, so he's coming off scummy. Cat was acting all weird, so easy scum read. I poked the CoryBear and made a read from it and people didn't really understand it, so I was scummy. Then there was wisheleste that was actually scum and the only scum read I was comfortable agreeing with her on. 

 

 

Basically, she didn't have to put work into getting those reads.