[Pick Your Poison] Pulp Fiction Mafia - Game Over

[Thane Vakarian]

no, i didn't.

 

Sorry to see you go BFG, you rocked this game

[Talya]

no, i didn't.

 

Sorry to see you go BFG, you rocked this game

She did...

 

Thane, who are in your WTL today?

[Thane Vakarian]

i'll have a re-read of the game. Darthe is there, surely. I'll need to have a look at BFG's main suspects

[Kivam]

 

 

 

I'm going to [v]unvote[/v].  Seph's reaction to pressure seemed believable to me.  I'm still concerned by the potential TMI slip more than anything, so I'm not exactly tossing Seph into the townpile, but it's not enough to justify a bandwagon this early.

 

That said, I'm pretty annoyed by the pressure Shad is getting for his vote ... was hoping to see another few people hop onto the Seph lynch when it seemed like low hanging fruit before unvoting.  That won't be happening now.

What did you think I'd Shad's vote at this point Kiv?

This feels like jumping off something that could turn into a lynch and not wanting it to be one.

 

Er, what?  Sorry, not sure what autocorrect replaced on this one.  What are you asking?

Sorry, what do you think of Shad's at this point

 

You wanted to see who else went for Seph, and Shad did, yet you didn't make a comment about his post.

 

The jumping off Seph's vote at 3 votes looked at bit odd.

 

You were right about BFG though!

 

Darthe - why not Thane, what has changed in your opinion

 

Pretty sure I made that clear.

 

[Leelou]

[v]shad[/v]

 

I'll be looking over that game again tomorrow, but so far nothing has really changed my mind from my vote yesterday.

[Thane Vakarian]

i'll be out for the night, so i'll be back tomorrow.... bummed out

[alannalynn]

Ok, I've just ISO'd Shad, and as far as I can tell, his focus was pretty much on Seph and then Tina in terms of 'hunting' yesterday.

 

He responds to Kivam about the emo tell thing

Agrees with Darthe about his vote being presumptive

Responds to Talia about his Seph vote

Responds to me about Kivam

 

Then gives out his reads list (general stances do look reasonable on the whole)

Backs off Seph and cases and votes Tina having spent time looking at the 'inactives'

 

There's a lot of follow through with his case on Seph and I don't have much of a feeling on the vote itself. He's been building up to it but the explanation with the vote was because of the 'game' Seph was playing, not because of finding him scummy.

 

I kind of expect Town!Shad to be more proactive than this. He doesn't have multiple suspects, he addresses Seph, backs off goes for Tina.

 

I want to check votes properly to see how Shad's train stacked numbers wise against Tina's at different points. But I think Shad just dropped in my list.

 

I also buy Leelous reasons above for the vote and build up, at least for now, so Leelou's heading up.

 

 

As an immediate difference with the games of his that I remember (SW, Belichick) there's been little to no interest in finding Town (until his reads list). Not sure how much emphasis I put into words but looking again at his reads list, although he's reading (e.g.) Sooh, Leelou as town, he says 'feeling pretty positive', 'like what I'm seeing so far', etc...

 

 

 

Let's do specifics...

 

Dice what are your thoughts on Sooh and Hallia?

 

Laine what are your thoughts on Shad and Talya?

Ninja'd lol

 

Shad I'm very wary of. His reaction post to Seph asking for a vote was very OOC and then playing it off like a reaction test felt like backtracking. That coupled with him calling the trap from Kivam just feels so weird. He's coming off as very wary this game but still has those really townie moments interspersed. I've never really had to question my read of Shad before, and that has me thinking that he's mafia.

 

As for Talya, I need a lot more time for her. I like her reads list, I need to go back to it and look it over though because I mostly skimmed it. But I have a hard time reading Talya to being with.

 

Basically this is total garbage.  In Belichick Laine comes in dead set on buddying me and trying to look as engaged as she can fake it.  When I dabble in tests and post OOC her reaction is consistently "that's weird but I'm ok with it/will trust you".  The buddying fails to swoon me, AJ and I dissect her activity and lead a lunch on her.  Here she sits out most of D1 and I comment that I hope she's not keeping quiet because she's afraid I'm high-tuned to her scum game.  I vocally lunch Tina D1 and she flips town, and now suddenly Laine's out of the cave and gunning for me, calling me out for the dirty side of my town game that she's seen four times now.  Calling my Seph test "backtracking" is opportunistic AF coming from her and I'm not going to give it a pass.

Do you really think I care if you call me scum Shad? I'm not playing to any one particular person. I'm here to town tell and lynch scum. That I'm noting a difference in your play is just me scumhunting.

 

Post 626 @Shad: The distinction is that it didn't bother me the first time but looking back I realized that you did were part of the trap thing twice already and both times felt like failed attempts to me. It comes off as you being wary instead of pro town. In Seph's case, you vote him and then once people say it was unlike you, you backtracked and say it was for reactions. In Kivam's case, you spring his trap and call him town for it, but people started questioning the legitimacy of it. Something feels off there and I'm not going to not call it out.

 

I did like your points on Tina because they were the same things I thought that led to me voting her.

 

 Grrr. The nesting quotes combined with Laine responding to me in blue makes it pretty impossible to quote to respond.

 

Re Laine saying she didn't see Dice's post as attempting to throw suspicion on me: that is literally the only possible function of this line from Dice:

 

what concerns me is I think you know this. I shouldnt have to tell you this

 

Combine that with the smoke-and-mirrors of the equivocation between alignment reads and role reads, and the manufactured aspect of the "ok you're right in this game but not in all games" line of argument (again, if you're trying to solve, you agree with me about the thing we agree on and argue about the things you don't; if you're trying to make a player seem scummy, you don't give them any daylight at all in a post you're planning on ending with "what concerns me is I think you know this"), and what do you get?

 

A scummy push on a player who had drawn a lot of heat, without (at the time) a strong other lynch candidate drawing votes, and who could not respond.

 

Hence Dice is firmly in my scum pile

re posting in blue: It's because the post was too long and I wanted to respond quickly and not have to flip back and forth between windows

 

I can see what you're getting at there I suppose. But this is also DM, we don't lynch people who are away and cannot defend themselves. I would call it more of a light fos

 

 

I don't see the point here. I use town reads from those I'm reading as town to narrow down my POE for scum. It feels to me like you're trying to scare us into having no clear townies and muddling reads by spreading suspicion which I'm not sure I agree with. It's one thing in Avatar where you're protecting a specific player, but another where we are scum hunting for a team to determine who they are connected with.

 

At the same time I am intrigued by the concept and would like to know how this would work in action but not totally comfortable with it.

 

Not so hard to understand.  We post our scum lists, and keep our townies to ourselves.  You can still use reads from people you are townreading to inform your own analysis - if someone you trust doesn't share your scum read on player X, take a second look - but you don't hand scum a prioritized kill list. 

I might try it in favor of something new, may be awkward.

 

link  Reminder to go back to this lynch analysis

 

I'm sorry I can't respond better right now, I'm on a time crunch because I need to get ready for work soonish

[Talya]

 

 

 

 

I'm going to [v]unvote[/v].  Seph's reaction to pressure seemed believable to me.  I'm still concerned by the potential TMI slip more than anything, so I'm not exactly tossing Seph into the townpile, but it's not enough to justify a bandwagon this early.

 

That said, I'm pretty annoyed by the pressure Shad is getting for his vote ... was hoping to see another few people hop onto the Seph lynch when it seemed like low hanging fruit before unvoting.  That won't be happening now.

 

What did you think I'd Shad's vote at this point Kiv?

This feels like jumping off something that could turn into a lynch and not wanting it to be one.

 

Er, what?  Sorry, not sure what autocorrect replaced on this one.  What are you asking?

Sorry, what do you think of Shad's at this point

You wanted to see who else went for Seph, and Shad did, yet you didn't make a comment about his post.

The jumping off Seph's vote at 3 votes looked at bit odd.

You were right about BFG though!

Darthe - why not Thane, what has changed in your opinion

Pretty sure I made that clear.

Keep getting it wrong, I meant his vote at the time. I know now, but then when Tina and Sooh looked at it?

[alannalynn]

And in case you're wondering, [v]Shad[/v]

[Talya]

I was just going to ask you. On my re read I had him improving.

[Talya]

 

 

Yes :) anything else would have worried me

Can you explain your reads on Kivam and Seph up to this point?

Seph's attitude is very different here than in Star Wars. He's playing with confidence and swagger where I remember him as defensive and insecure. His more recent games should tell me if this is his new norm. Supposing for now that it is since no one has called him out for it, the big thing that bugs me is the explanation behind his Darthe vote. He contradicted himself explaining his thought process, as I see it, and I don't get how that happens if he was being honest. But he's putting on a show of trying to solve. Three votes and a lot of accusations didn't frazzle him much. It's not the Seph I towned with two months ago but that's not scummy in and of itself.

 

Kivam is interesting.  I feel like he's all over the place.  I want to interpret it as trying to shake things up and keep the game moving.  He's having a go at people who haven't been sussed at all (Sooh, Tina, Hallia, me before I got into it with Seph).  That's productive at this stage, if it creates some inconsistency.   He got on Sooh for sussing me over the Seph vote.  That felt weird, but I'm not seeing Sooh's scum game at all here and he might not know what to look for.  I don't have a clue what is normal for him so meh.  I want to like him.

Does the bold sound like he thought Sooh had Sus him out? I keep reading it and it feels like it could be a slip.

There was one bit about him, if you (Alanna) (or anyone else), could look at the bold and say what you think. I was hoping BFG would but...

 

And that's supposed to be 'Sussex'

[Andrej]

Vote Count 2.3

Hallia (1) - Darthe
Shad (3) - Kivam, Leelou, AlannaLynn

Not Voting (7) - Hallia, Thane Vakarian, Seph, dicetosser1, Shad, Talya, Sooh

6 to lynch.

Deadline: 9pm PST Tuesday, August 11

[Shad_]

at the moment, i highly doubt that Darthe. Seph seems quite town, unless he's pulling somehting off from start D1 (which i doubt) and i have an awesome anti-wolf power up my sleave. So, if you're town as well, i'd like to throw you on the townpile and keep looking elsewhere

 

 

Bleh, I don't like that Thane is basing town reads off of spammy chatter at the beginning of game, it's free passes that are not warranted.

it's basically tonereading, and  i like it so far. Not planning on shooting you  this game, (yet?)

 

 

i hope i get a better feeling for you this game, Hallia.

 

 

 

 

this shot is not meant for you

 

 

 

Thane, did you shoot last night?

no, i didn't.

 

Sorry to see you go BFG, you rocked this game

Ok, so track with me here.

 

Thursday morning, Thane announces that he is a PR.  Thursday night, Thane claims vig.  Night phase he reminds us again.  The claim was not the consequence of a momentary bad idea.  It was planned.  This means he has lots and lots of time to think of the consequences of claiming a 2x PR while both shots are still live.  Not shooting last night pretty much guarantees that he is not a vig here.

 

Option A) Scum plan to fake claim a PR.  To avoid a counterclaim, they surely pick one that is not actually in the game.  IC not an option because it's mod confirmable.  Vig remote possibility but they have to explain there never being two kills in a single night.  Over cop/jk/tracker, which are all highly fakable, they go with vig.  They then completely blow it by stupidly claiming a 2-shot before the first night phase plus having no explanation ready to roll at the start of D2.

 

Option B) Scum!Thane goes rogue and either his partners don't notice the initial PR claim or first soft vig claim when he can still comfortably back away from it, or else they discuss the situation and agree that they can craft 2x vig D1 claim into something useful, like maybe a derp clear.

 

Option C) Town!Thane made a silly fake claim.

 

Path of least resistance says Thane is town.

[Thane Vakarian]

fake claiming as scum would be a very bad idea because at one point, it'd bite you in the ass. Shad, i'm town here this game. I'm kinda getting worried that you're not.... 

[Darthe]

i'll have a re-read of the game. Darthe is there, surely. I'll need to have a look at BFG's main suspects

y

[Darthe]

fake claiming as scum would be a very bad idea because at one point, it'd bite you in the ass. Shad, i'm town here this game. I'm kinda getting worried that you're not.... 

last sentence rule is in full effect, could the rest of you plz google how rhetoric works and then make informed decisions?

[Shad_]

 

Ok, I've just ISO'd Shad, and as far as I can tell, his focus was pretty much on Seph and then Tina in terms of 'hunting' yesterday.

 

He responds to Kivam about the emo tell thing

Agrees with Darthe about his vote being presumptive

Responds to Talia about his Seph vote

Responds to me about Kivam

 

Then gives out his reads list (general stances do look reasonable on the whole)

Backs off Seph and cases and votes Tina having spent time looking at the 'inactives'

 

There's a lot of follow through with his case on Seph and I don't have much of a feeling on the vote itself. He's been building up to it but the explanation with the vote was because of the 'game' Seph was playing, not because of finding him scummy.

 

I kind of expect Town!Shad to be more proactive than this. He doesn't have multiple suspects, he addresses Seph, backs off goes for Tina.

 

I want to check votes properly to see how Shad's train stacked numbers wise against Tina's at different points. But I think Shad just dropped in my list.

 

I also buy Leelous reasons above for the vote and build up, at least for now, so Leelou's heading up.

 

 

As an immediate difference with the games of his that I remember (SW, Belichick) there's been little to no interest in finding Town (until his reads list). Not sure how much emphasis I put into words but looking again at his reads list, although he's reading (e.g.) Sooh, Leelou as town, he says 'feeling pretty positive', 'like what I'm seeing so far', etc...

 

 

Let's do specifics...

 

Dice what are your thoughts on Sooh and Hallia?

 

Laine what are your thoughts on Shad and Talya?

Ninja'd lol

 

Shad I'm very wary of. His reaction post to Seph asking for a vote was very OOC and then playing it off like a reaction test felt like backtracking. That coupled with him calling the trap from Kivam just feels so weird. He's coming off as very wary this game but still has those really townie moments interspersed. I've never really had to question my read of Shad before, and that has me thinking that he's mafia.

 

As for Talya, I need a lot more time for her. I like her reads list, I need to go back to it and look it over though because I mostly skimmed it. But I have a hard time reading Talya to being with.

 

Basically this is total garbage. In Belichick Laine comes in dead set on buddying me and trying to look as engaged as she can fake it. When I dabble in tests and post OOC her reaction is consistently "that's weird but I'm ok with it/will trust you". The buddying fails to swoon me, AJ and I dissect her activity and lead a lunch on her. Here she sits out most of D1 and I comment that I hope she's not keeping quiet because she's afraid I'm high-tuned to her scum game. I vocally lunch Tina D1 and she flips town, and now suddenly Laine's out of the cave and gunning for me, calling me out for the dirty side of my town game that she's seen four times now. Calling my Seph test "backtracking" is opportunistic AF coming from her and I'm not going to give it a pass.

 

Do you really think I care if you call me scum Shad? I'm not playing to any one particular person. I'm here to town tell and lynch scum. That I'm noting a difference in your play is just me scumhunting.

 

Post 626 @Shad: The distinction is that it didn't bother me the first time but looking back I realized that you did were part of the trap thing twice already and both times felt like failed attempts to me. It comes off as you being wary instead of pro town. In Seph's case, you vote him and then once people say it was unlike you, you backtracked and say it was for reactions. In Kivam's case, you spring his trap and call him town for it, but people started questioning the legitimacy of it. Something feels off there and I'm not going to not call it out.

 

I did like your points on Tina because they were the same things I thought that led to me voting her.

 

Red - You don't think I misinterpreted him.  Do you believe it was a trap and Kivam is lying, or do you believe I pretended to think it was a trap? If the former is true, what makes you so sure that scum!Kivam did not deny the trap in order to get me mislynched? Iirc he didn't comment on my assumption until other people sussed me for it. If the latter is true, why did I not support my town lean until someone asked?  How does that jive?

 

I thought it was a trap.  I didn't go into much detail because I wanted to see who would ask.  Laine has seen me withhold explanations like this many times.

 

Blue - Do you honestly believe I would make a post as OOC as my Seph vote because I was so eager to lynch him that I put no thought into my words?  I could even humor suspecting the test because you feel it was overplayed, but if you think there was no test, get on my level.  I refuse to believe my scum game could be that bad.

 

Look at who actually voted me in this game.  Tina, who has never played with me before.  Kivam, who has never played with me before.  And Leelou, who modded my very first game and aside from that only saw me for one phase, when she was scum and not paying much attention.  If you base my game off the risks I take, I don't know how you've ever cleared me as town.  I expect there to be enough town in this game who know me that I will not get mislynched for risky plays.  In my mind you should be one of those players.  So are you scum here?

 

I thought back to Alien when I wrote this and remembered saying "Hunts witches instead of wolves, but with so much vigor...  If she manages to lead a charge it's going to be a mislynch".  Is that what I'm seeing here?  The pounce in your push on me feels more natural than your pushes on Dice and Rand in Belichick.  You went at Rand with a lot of faked disgust.  Look how OBVIOUSLY scummy he is type stuff.  You aren't doing that here.

 

I want to look at Kivam's slot.  His ignoring my observation of a trap until others sussed me for it and then denying it/scum reading me for the play is pretty fishy.  He has a lot of long posts full of technicalities and I did not give them half as thorough a look as I would like to.  With Tina off the table and Kiv around to answer questions, I intend to do this.  Laine is going at me like she goes at derp players when she is town.  I see no excuse for this, but I don't see a parallel to her tone as scum either.  Meh.  I was wrong with Tina.  That was only the second time I've been on a lynch that flipped town, and the first that I wasn't hesitant about.  I don't want to rush head-first into a Laine lynch.  I don't want to lose my head and set us back further either.  Laine, we're either two friendly lions mauling each other or your scum game has changed in a short period of time.  We have 48 hours and I intend to use them.

 

[Shad_]

fake claiming as scum would be a very bad idea because at one point, it'd bite you in the ass. Shad, i'm town here this game. I'm kinda getting worried that you're not.... 

 

Any recent thoughts on Laine and Kivam?

[Shad_]

Headache from lack of sleep is long past the point of unbearable and I'm off baby duty in another half hour.  My thoughts can wait until tomorrow. 

[Darthe]

I would go Laine over Shad, ftr

[Kivam]

 

fake claiming as scum would be a very bad idea because at one point, it'd bite you in the ass. Shad, i'm town here this game. I'm kinda getting worried that you're not.... 

last sentence rule is in full effect, could the rest of you plz google how rhetoric works and then make informed decisions?

 

 

You've called it out enough that if he was consciously constructing posts to push mislynches, he'd have altered it, no?

 

[Kivam]

 

 

 

 

 

BTW, Shad, serious question - you think emo is a town tell?  To me, it usually signals scum flailing

 

I think that's a silly generalization and you have to look at the root of what's upsetting someone.  People are more transparent when you get them fired up, and Seph happened to enter that game with a real chip on his shoulder so it was easy to exploit it and extract his alignment.

 

BTW, I think it's complete BS that you would make a response to a basic question about game strategy into a personal attack.  "Silly generalization"?  Show a bit of respect

 

 

You are kidding, right?

 

Of course.  Like I said, emo is too easy to fake.  Just pick some imagined slight, blow it up into a personal attack, and start lashing out while complaining that people are against you. 

 

Which is why my personal preference is for Emo-play to be an autolynch.  Not only does it eliminate fake emo as a strategy, but it keeps the games fun.

 

/soapbox.

 

BTW, serious question - who hasn't checked in yet.  I know Tina hasn't.  Anyone else?

 

 

-_-

 

Obviously doesn't prove your point, but clever bait.  Shad has a town lean on somebody.  Yay.

 

Just pulling this exchange, since Shad is spinning it a bit.  There was nothing suspicious about Shad suggesting he townread me based on our interactions.  What became scummy was when he later claimed that he saw it as some sort of reaction fishing, when it was self-evidently nothing of the sort.  Seriously, what exactly would a scum response to that have even looked like?

[seph]

Ok guys I am here! Laying in bed and trying to play catch up

Sorry I wasn't around earlier, I spent most of today in my other game.

[seph]

 

ehh, I think you spilling the beans, had the dissuade factor. not sooh, nudging shad.

All due respect, Seph, this is silly. Once Player A (Shad) has gotten pressure for voting Player X (You), Player X is no longer low hanging fruit and a cautious mafioso isn't going to come piling on to a bandwagon.

 

@BFG, because the "0-2" implies an assumption that they were actually attempted reads - i.e that darthe is town Sent from my SM-G900P using Tapatalk

I really dislike this post by kiv.darthe posted them, so they are reads. apparently something you forgot while interpreting my post for me is MAFIA have to make reads as well!I never once have called darthe town, and no it does NOT imply that.[unvote][v] kiv[/v]

And this is also silly. (Not the vote, but the thought process). Mafia members don't make or post "reads". Mafia members actually know the alignment of every player in the game, so anything couched as a read is nothing of the sort; it's a fake read (whether calling someone townie or scum). But I'm getting the sense that you either haven't thought through the semantics of it or wouldn't care enough to make sure your post was clear, which would make that a null tell rather than potential TMI

 

 

 

 

Yes :) anything else would have worried me

Can you explain your reads on Kivam and Seph up to this point?

 

Seph's attitude is very different here than in Star Wars. He's playing with confidence and swagger where I remember him as defensive and insecure. His more recent games should tell me if this is his new norm. Supposing for now that it is since no one has called him out for it, the big thing that bugs me is the explanation behind his Darthe vote. He contradicted himself explaining his thought process, as I see it, and I don't get how that happens if he was being honest. But he's putting on a show of trying to solve. Three votes and a lot of accusations didn't frazzle him much. It's not the Seph I towned with two months ago but that's not scummy in and of itself.

 

Kivam is interesting. I feel like he's all over the place. I want to interpret it as trying to shake things up and keep the game moving. He's having a go at people who haven't been sussed at all (Sooh, Tina, Hallia, me before I got into it with Seph). That's productive at this stage, if it creates some inconsistency. He got on Sooh for sussing me over the Seph vote. That felt weird, but I'm not seeing Sooh's scum game at all here and he might not know what to look for. I don't have a clue what is normal for him so meh. I want to like him.

You should. I'm a very likable guy.

 

That said, I'm not liking the misrepresentation of my comment to Sooh. I didn't "get on" Sooh - I said I was annoyed that a potential chance to catch opportunistic scum got busted up by her comments (and Tina's). Like I said to Darthe, the comments themselves were a null tell. But hey, you tell me - which part of my posts did you consider "getting on Sooh" or "having a go at Sooh"? I'd like to see quotes, please.

 

And btw, I've never played with Sooh, Seph, or (I'm pretty sure) BFG. But the people I have played with will tell you that doesn't matter, since I don't give meta much credence unless I know the player in question is bad enough at mafia not to either have a meta tell or not be able to change it.

So what do you make of Tina's vote still being on Seph, while (in your opinion - don't have time to go and check what was actually said now) pushing people away from voting him?

Not much. Like I said to Darthe, I don't know whether Tina's (or Sooh's) post was an attempt to push people away from Seph in the first place; that's a play that would only make sense if both are scum, so if Seph is town then it wasn't that at all. And even if Seph is scum, one or both could be townies rather than supportive teammates. Where her vote was doesn't really impact my analysis of that at all, given how far from a lynch Seph was at the time, and has been since.

Hallia - her posts have been underwhelming

Darthe - so far, I'm okay with Darthe. Not lynching him D1

Thane - I like his presence, slight town, I need to wait a couple phases to see how engaged Thane is to firmly put him in the town pile though

Laine - has made ONE post (timestamp 2 days ago)

 

 

 

Checking in from work! Be back later!

 

Seph - he's so awkward in openings. I can't decide right now on him

Kiv - NEVER trust this one. <3

Dice - he's posting, but townie Dice hasn't jumped out yet.

Tina - No bad vibes yet

BFG - liking BFG, she's sitting in my town pile for now

Shad - I think we only played one game together and I was scum. Your posts feel okay so far, reads on people other than Seph?

Talya - I like that she is asking questions, far too early for me to have a read on her though

Sooh - null

 

I'm having a hard time getting into this game. People are interacting, but it doesn't really seem like there is a lot going on.

 

Oh, as I posted this it looks like Laine posted again. Eh, just another I'll post later post. Meh

Catching up, I have a town read on Kiv, BFG, and Leelou. I really like that short read list she posted.

 

I feel a bit better about Thane. I think my problem is that I always scum read him, but now that he's posting actual reads based on game play, I like it.

 

Ready for more Laine.

 

I don't know about Seph. My gut tells me town though.

 

Not liking Tina or Shad atm. (Gameplay that is, I love you both <3 )

 

 

OK, pretty much signing off for Shabbos - I may have another chance to show up before candle lighting, but I doubt it - so I'm going to [v]Shad[/v]. I really did not like the hemming and hawing before voting for Seph, and then voting Seph after he posted what I thought was a very convincing explanation. This vote is likely locked in, given the deadline, so let's see what shakes free from it.

I just am not getting a good feeling from kiv atm.

And I'm liking these posts from Hallia and leelou.

 

I'm on my phone so quoting is especially difficult atm

[seph]

Ok on page 22

.. and I'm passing g out now.

 

I want to look further into darthe/thane.