Ogier and The Longing

[schneb]

I'm doing another re-read and I came across a question last night, and was wondering if I had caught an RJ mistake or if I'm just remembering wrong.

 

The longing came about because during and after the breaking the Ogier couldn't find any Steddings.

 

In the Eye of The World when Loial was explaining the Ways to the group he stated that during the breaking the Ogier sheltered male Aes Sedai inside the Stedding to help them to not go mad. As a reward for this sheltering, the male Aes Sedai made them the Ways and the Talisman of Growing so they could grow new Way Gates to connect the steddings. One of the advantages of the ways is that they weren't really connected to the world so whatever happened to the earth between gates did not happen to the Ways. I believe the example Loial gave was if a Canyon opened between Steddings the Ways would still function the same.

 

My question is this. Since we know that the Ogier had access to Steddings during the breaking, and they had Way Gates just outside all of the known Steddings, when did they lose the Steddings and have to wander for long enough to have The Longing set in?

 

Edited to correct spelling of Ogier

[Silver]

well, the first question for that would be, how long does it take to develop the Longing?

[Magicana]

Hmm that is a bit of a plot hole. Lol.

 

Nicely spotted.

[Luckers]

The shelter was granted during the early days of the breaking, which you must remember lasted for 400 years. The Red Ajah claim that in offering the shelter the Ogier prolonged the Breaking, whilst the Blue Ajah believes that had all the men gone insane at the same time, rather then progressively over that 400 years, then the entire world would have been destroyed.

 

As to when the Ogier lost the Stedding altogether, they held as long as they could, but finally were driven out. This was after the creation of the Ways. It should be noted also that in Seanchan they were never completely driven out of the stedding.

[schneb]

Yes, I remember that the breaking lasted for 400 years, but considering the lifespan of the peoples involved, that isn't a terribly long time.

 

Is there something in the BWB that says when the Ogier lost the steddings and why/how they were driven out? I've never gotten around to reading that.

 

The Seanchan Ogier brings up another interesting plot twist possibility. Will mixing the Ogier who went to the Seanchan continent with those who stayed introduce the Longing to the Seanchan Ogier or remove it from the others.

[RobertAlexWillis]

Will mixing the Ogier who went to the Seanchan continent with those who stayed introduce the Longing to the Seanchan Ogier or remove it from the others.

 

It'll probably remove it from the Randland Ogier, since they have to have a way to get rid of the Longing before they can use the Book of Translation.

 

Also, Loial's been outside a good long time without developing the Longing. Maybe its working its way out of their systems naturally too.

[mègon]

First, how were the Ogier driven out?

 

This could have happened several ways. It was mentioned that whatever happened to the outside world did not effect the stedding directly, however, it can effect it indirectly. For example, a mountain is brought up or a canyon is created. This could change the flow of the rivers that go through the stedding. They could stop completely, depriving the Ogier of water and forcing them to leave, or they could increase their flow dramatically flooding the Ogier out.

 

Also, we know very well that it is possible for weapons to be used inside of the stedding. The OP cannot be used, but cold steal or shock lances could still be used. Ogier, at least Randland Ogier, are very peaceful and only fight if they absolutely have to. The Ogier could've been attacked for giving shelter to the male Aes Sedai. The peoples of the world may have blamed the Ogier for the long breaking and gone in to take their revenge. This would definately be a driving.

 

After they were driven out, I don't know if we know how long they wandered other than that it was a "Long" time. But because of the total and complete restructuring of the landscape, the Ogier could not find their way back to the stedding, and the ways were growing dark, so they couldn't just hide out in them.

 

Have left the Stedding, the Ogier were no longer sheltered from the events of the breaking and had to flee for their lives like everyone else, and in fleeing were driven further from the ways.

 

The Longing, itself, I do not believe is a genetic thing. The Ogier lived in the Stedding, but as the Seanchan Ogier have showed, as they can withstand very long times outide of the Stedding, a Stedding is not required for an Ogier to live.

 

I believe that during the Wandering (I believe it was called), the Ogier more lost the will to live. They longed for the peace and solace of the Stedding in a troubled world. They didn't want to live in a world of tormoil, and they lost the will to live.

 

Loial, who had a very long trip outside the stedding without, in my opinion, experiencing the Longing shows that when an Ogier has a desire to do something they can survive away from the Stedding. Loial still loved the stedding and took what occassions he had, usually, to visit one and refresh himself, but he has not experienced anything I would qualify as The Longing.

 

It may come to the point that all the Ogier find something great that they are striving for and leave the stedding to accomplish this mission, or whatever it may be, and The Longing will cease.

[Thor]

I'm doing another re-read and I came across a question last night' date=' and was wondering if I had caught an RJ mistake or if I'm just remembering wrong.

 

The longing came about because during and after the breaking the Ogier couldn't find any Steddings.

 

In the Eye of The World when Loial was explaining the Ways to the group he stated that during the breaking the Ogier sheltered male Aes Sedai inside the Stedding to help them to not go mad. As a reward for this sheltering, the male Aes Sedai made them the Ways and the Talisman of Growing so they could grow new Way Gates to connect the steddings. One of the advantages of the ways is that they weren't really connected to the world so whatever happened to the earth between gates did not happen to the Ways. I believe the example Loial gave was if a Canyon opened between Steddings the Ways would still function the same.

 

My question is this. Since we know that the Ogier had access to Steddings during the breaking, and they had Way Gates just outside all of the known Steddings, when did they lose the Steddings and have to wander for long enough to have The Longing set in?

 

Edited to correct spelling of Ogier[/quote']

 

Can't believe everybody missed this. The breaking messed up the physical world, including the ways.

 

Remember, the ways changed during the breaking and many got lost.

[mègon]

Can't believe everybody missed this. The breaking messed up the physical world' date=' including the ways.

 

Remember, the ways changed during the breaking and many got lost.[/quote']

 

Are you referring to "this" as the "plot hole" or that the ways were messed up? Robert Jordan put way too much time into planning this series to leave such a big obvious plot hole.

[Hero of Satsuma]

Pretty sure that Loial still suffers from the Longing even though he has spent a great deal of time away from the Stedding. Doesn't he, at one point during the story, leave the group to go spend some time in a Stedding to "refresh" (I don't have my books with me and I don't remember which book it was in)?

 

Also, the location of Waygates may have changed during the Breaking, but the Ways themselves remain unchanged and unaffected as they are in a separate world than the living world.

 

I agree with RAW that reintegrating with the Seanchan Ogier will help the Longing pass from the Ogier of Randland.

[schneb]

Can't believe everybody missed this. The breaking messed up the physical world, including the ways.

 

Remember, the ways changed during the breaking and many got lost.

 

Where do you get your information that the Way's were messed up? Loial made the specific point that stuff that happened in the world outside the ways did not affect the ways themselves.

[schneb]

First, how were the Ogier driven out?

 

This could have happened several ways. It was mentioned that whatever happened to the outside world did not effect the stedding directly, however, it can effect it indirectly. For example, a mountain is brought up or a canyon is created. This could change the flow of the rivers that go through the stedding. They could stop completely, depriving the Ogier of water and forcing them to leave, or they could increase their flow dramatically flooding the Ogier out.

 

Also, we know very well that it is possible for weapons to be used inside of the stedding. The OP cannot be used, but cold steal or shock lances could still be used. Ogier, at least Randland Ogier, are very peaceful and only fight if they absolutely have to. The Ogier could've been attacked for giving shelter to the male Aes Sedai. The peoples of the world may have blamed the Ogier for the long breaking and gone in to take their revenge. This would definately be a driving.

 

I could see the environmental conditions being more compelling than the threat of violence. That being said, can a stedding be created or destroyed? If not, then the steddings would still be unable to support life unless the Ogier did some sort of teraforming. What we learn from the books is they lost the steddings due to the earth being rearranged. As I said before this wouldn't have affected the Ways.

 

After they were driven out, I don't know if we know how long they wandered other than that it was a "Long" time. But because of the total and complete restructuring of the landscape, the Ogier could not find their way back to the stedding, and the ways were growing dark, so they couldn't just hide out in them.

 

The Ways growing dark is a more recent phenomena. Ogier as recent as one or two generations before Loial were traveling in them safely. In fact using the Ways wasn't forbidden until either during Loial's life or shortly before he was born. (Loial has met one of the last Ogier to make it out alive).

 

Have left the Stedding, the Ogier were no longer sheltered from the events of the breaking and had to flee for their lives like everyone else, and in fleeing were driven further from the ways.

 

This statement I agree with. With the exception of the fact that they had the talisman of growing so they could create a new gate pretty much anytime they needed one.

 

The Longing, itself, I do not believe is a genetic thing. The Ogier lived in the Stedding, but as the Seanchan Ogier have showed, as they can withstand very long times outide of the Stedding, a Stedding is not required for an Ogier to live.

 

This was true before the advent of the Longing. The Ogier in Randland will litteraly die now if they are too long outside the Stedding. We don't know how long that is. The longest Loial knows of an Ogier lasting is 10 years outside a Stedding. I believe that Loial himself has been outside for roughly 6-7 years. We don't know how long the Seanchan Ogier have been away from the stedding. We don't even know if they are descendents of Ogier that went with Hawking armies or if they are Ogier that were found and recruited on the other side of the ocean. If they are decendents of the Ogier that went with the armies, then they too will be susecptable to the Longing as those armies left 2000 years after the breaking. If they were recruited from the other side of the ocean, then we have no idea whether they had a similar period of Wandering.

 

 

I believe that during the Wandering (I believe it was called), the Ogier more lost the will to live. They longed for the peace and solace of the Stedding in a troubled world. They didn't want to live in a world of tormoil, and they lost the will to live.

 

Loial, who had a very long trip outside the stedding without, in my opinion, experiencing the Longing shows that when an Ogier has a desire to do something they can survive away from the Stedding. Loial still loved the stedding and took what occassions he had, usually, to visit one and refresh himself, but he has not experienced anything I would qualify as The Longing.

 

It may come to the point that all the Ogier find something great that they are striving for and leave the stedding to accomplish this mission, or whatever it may be, and The Longing will cease.

 

We don't know exactly what the symptoms of the Longing are. I agree that Loial isn't in any immediate threat of death from the Longing, but you can't say that he isn't feeling any effects. Otherwise he wouldn't have bothered with the detour between Edmonds Field and Camelyn to go to the abandoned stedding. Where does it change from feeling good to be in a stedding to being necessary to be in a stedding to not die.

[Albert]

This statement I agree with. With the exception of the fact that they had the talisman of growing so they could create a new gate pretty much anytime they needed one.

 

From what Loial said in tEotW, there was only one Talisman of Growing, which means that only one Stedding could make them.

[RobertAlexWillis]

Can't believe everybody missed this. The breaking messed up the physical world, including the ways.

 

Remember, the ways changed during the breaking and many got lost.

 

Actually, the BWB says the exact opposite. To quote:

 

The Ways were a world apart, for even if the land between two stedding was shattered or twisted, the Ways joining them remained unchanged, free of the Breaking.

 

(on page 197 )

[Telcar]

What is BWB abreviated of?

 

 

And a quick question, maybe the longing can be healed? This is pure speculation based on almost nothing :P but, Nynaeve (and others) can cure stilling "an uncureable thing", maybe if she tried she could "clense" the Ogier of the Longing.

 

But I guess we can't find that out until we know exactly what generates the longing.

 

-- my main reason for posting this is to ask about BWB :P but maybe some thoughts on the healing thing?

 

And while we're at it what about POV? What is it exactly? I know it conserns a characters chapter were we look into that characters head, but I don't know what it's supposed to be.

[Guest Barmacral]

BWB- Big White Book. Its concerning the book that was published after book 8 and is all about WoT, I don't think it was written by RJ (Robert Jordan) though.

 

POV- Point of View, for example, if you are reading a chapter where Mat is doing the Narrative, that chapter is in Mat's POV.

[Telcar]

ok....ty....point of view...never ocurred to me

[RobertAlexWillis]

Actually, the BWB (correctly interpreted by Barmacral as Big White Book) is a companion book authored by Robert Jordan and Teresa Patterson, officially titled The World of Robert Jordan's The Wheel of Time.

 

The narrator of the BWB is not omniscient, or infallible, but the vast majority of what's in it is correct, especially as it pertains to historical events (like the Breaking). Certainly this part about the Ways fits what we know of their nature.