[Basic]: Be Nice Mafia

[Cass]

 

 

EBWOP: One of the reasons this was extra confusing was because Yates' question had already been answered - by myself unofficially and by Tina officially - before you posted that... and the fact that Yates' question itself wasn't whether No Lynch would be allowed but whether a No Lynch majority vote actually meant no death (which was itself a really confusing question, because what would be the point otherwise?).

 

What's EBWOP?

 

 

Edit By Way Of Post.  Used to correct, or add on, to a previous post somebody made since we're not allowed to actually edit.

 

 

And I would rather you continually harp on me to clarify something you don't understand than let it go.  It gives me more confidence you want to understand where I'm coming from. :)

 

 

 

 

 

EBWOP: One of the reasons this was extra confusing was because Yates' question had already been answered - by myself unofficially and by Tina officially - before you posted that... and the fact that Yates' question itself wasn't whether No Lynch would be allowed but whether a No Lynch majority vote actually meant no death (which was itself a really confusing question, because what would be the point otherwise?).

 

What's EBWOP?

 

 

Edit by way of post.

 

 

Ninja'ing all over this EoD   

 

Thanks both of you  . Even Clov, I think. (PS I appreciate the bolded bit above - I promise I'm not completely made of tinfoil!!)

[BFG]

 

This isn't ending any other way with 10 minutes left.

 

I'm out for dinner now, but internet willing I'll try and post more later :/

 

What are we having?

 

Steak most likely, I think tonight's a red wine night and they looked like they were going to cry when we asked for red wine with fish earlier in the week

 

Back later

[Songstress]

I promise I'm not completely made of tinfoil!!)

*has interesting mental image... something like this*

 

[Niniel]

VC

 

Sili (1) - Cass

No lynch (5) - Clov, Thane, jmm, Sili, BFG

 

Not voting: Yates, Tress,

 

 

With 8 alive it takes 5 to lynch.  

 

That´s a lynch! Sort of... not really. There will soon be a scene.

[Yates]

Welp. Good luck. It's been fun!

[Niniel]

 

 

... said Fluttershy. What are we going to do? I love you all but someone has eaten my birthday cake and I fear that Pinkie Pie will have a seizure if we don´t do something about this. 

 

I think we should send home the guilty pony, said Rainbow Dash.

 

But who is the guilty one? 

 

The ponies looked at each other but couldn´t find anything suspicious. For now, they decided that everyone could stay. But they had to keep looking, no one wanted an angry Pinkie Pie...

 

 

 

It´s now N1. Deadline is Sunday 9 PM CET. (23 hours and 39 minutes from now.) 

 

http://www.timeanddate.com/countdown/generic?iso=20150111T21&p0=292&msg=Deadline+N1&swk=1

[Clovdyx]

 

 

This isn't ending any other way with 10 minutes left.

 

I'm out for dinner now, but internet willing I'll try and post more later :/

What are we having?

Steak most likely, I think tonight's a red wine night and they looked like they were going to cry when we asked for red wine with fish earlier in the week

 

Back later

I'm not really a wine guy, but I guess I'll make an exception for steak.

[Sili Quirrels]

are we allowed to post?

[Sili Quirrels]

nb4 modkill

[Songstress]

Standard rules on DM allow talk during night phase.  If a mod doesn't specify otherwise, assume you can chat away if you want.

 

There are some who prefer to minimize night chat regardless of whether it's allowed or not... my 2nd game ever was a faction ASoIaF game run by Wombat, and my faction leader made the mistake of insulting the SK during night phase and got himself targeted.  I've kind of kept my thoughts close to the vest during night phase from then on, except for specific circumstances.  The game where I was a commuter I was very chatty at night.

[Sili Quirrels]

it might enable tinfoil but i think the kill is pretty straight forward for them.

 

not confident you're town anymore btw tress.

[Sili Quirrels]

*tinfoil engaged if i die* lol

[Niniel]

Good morning! It has been snowing! Yay! Hopefully it doesn´t rain away. 

 

Countdown

 

 

[Clovdyx]

I would be delighted if it never snows again.

[Clovdyx]

More importantly, when did you start wavering on Tress, Silk?

[Thane Vakarian]

*wonders what will have happened this night*

 

I doubt i'll be on shortly after DL, more likely to be here tomorrow morning local time (around 5:30 am CET)

[Thane Vakarian]

or, i might not need to bother anymore, we'll see

[Niniel]

I have received the na´s but need to put my co-mod to bed. :D It might take a while since we have a habit of late evenings on weekends. I´ll probably be back in an hour with the scene and then D2 can begin.

[Cass]

Alright. I'm up early to try and beat the ponylette. Figure with less than an hour to go I should be safe enough from attracting immediate night actions

Thanks Tress, for inciting that paranoia 

 and I want to get this out in case I am NK'd for being obvTown. I'll start with current general impressions/reads gathered in my re-reads overnight, and move on with specifics as I have time/am still alive during the day. Will probably wait until D2 start for the specifics to avoid 'chasing' anything that will potentially end up irrelevant though. GL!

 

 

Sili still seems suspicious to me, personally, but I'm slightly less sure that he is !SCUM!. For all intents and purposes I have to admit that he has been showing considerable effort 'answering' suspicions and if I push aside my tinfoil hat and try hard to understand where he may actually be coming from, from the POV of possible Town, it sometimes works, in a roundabout sort of way. This obviously doesn't make him not-scum, but I have to consider points from people who I would expect do actually read Town him better (Yates, BFG, Jmm, Thane) suggesting that he could still quite possibly be Town. Add in the fact that nobody else voted and I really start to worry that my read is just me once again misunderstanding/being put off by the odd things he says and the way he tends to play. I'm not clearing him from my 'scummiest so far' list, but I've started looking closer at other players too. 

Clov is another one who reads more Townish, once I remove/consider potential confbias associated with Sili and consider that he may be telling me the entire truth as he sees it in answer to the things I put forward to him earlier. The exchange/confusion over the NL kill/no kill thing at EoD is another thing prompting me to move off him and give him the benefit of the doubt at this stage. As is the fact that he has tended to 'answer' my questions. A couple of little things have bugged me (like him saying at one stage that it was 'too early' to worry about being set up by scum) and if I tinfoil hard enough I can find his delayed response yesterday suspicious, but his tone certainly reads to me as Town in his exchanges with me (although I'm still unsure about how he was with Sili, and I'm equally wary in case he's just good at pulling this off as wilf). For now I'm moving him towards null-Town.

Tress is moving slightly away from the most 'certain' Town I had earlier. My reconsideration of Clov and the truth in his cookie-cutter comments about Tress' reads have me wondering if I've been letting her slide past my paranoia because I was happy to see her play so early on. It is possible she's been slightly buddying me too, but I don't know if that's her thing, and TBH I read most of this as Tress just being funny/friendly with me like I would expect her to at any point of our online interactions, including here. BFG's point about her having no read on Yates after their initial interactions coupled with Clov's comments that her 'paranoia' could plausibly be faked has got me wary. Tress and Yates for Scum if Sili and Clov are not? For now I'm keeping her in my Town-ish pile.

Yates has not progressed for me, and neither has my read on him, which I really do not like. Even though I find it easier to pick out inconsistencies and hunt for scum, I feel like players should become clearer the more they interact if they are Town and I'm not sure that Yates has. I find his lack of progression disturbing because I feel like he's putting in effort to respond/explain when people push him, and like he's had some good-ok points (eg. potential Sili/BFG, observations about jmm) but like he's not really getting anywhere, if that makes sense... in other words, nothing has jumped up at me that makes me feel less uneasy about the prospect of him being scum. The scum-town slip relating to the previous game, (which is important to me but he claims is irrelevant ), is personally the biggest 'tangible' thing I've got on him so far, plus the vibe of buddying, which I just can't shake on reads of tone. All-in-all he makes me nervous. If he's scum I do not want to let him slip my net again. I have him as disturbingly-null, potential-scum-that-I-can't-catch... for now.

 

BFG is also softly pinging to me now, although I definitely have her tone as Townish. She's been 'helpful' posting replies to a couple of my questions and I appreciate her comments on Sili (as they helped me actually stop and think about things from the perspective I may be wrong). It's only little things like the possibility of her posting times being a little too conveniently calculated or excused, the structure and wording of an early post and her 'defense' of Sili if he's scum... *hides tinfoil* that are pinging to me so far, really. I honestly can't find much more than that.

Thane is definitely coming off as 'different' to me in this game compared with the last. In the last one I found him largely jovial and friendly - to the point where I initially tinfoiled that he was 'buddying' everyone in the game. Here he seems more careful and held back by comparison. I'm not saying he feels like scum (he doesn't) but he does feel different, and I can't figure out why. At first I found the fact that his reads on Sili and Clov as top scum were exactly the same as mine 'comforting', now that I'm focusing my attention elsewhere I'm considering that, the when and the tone he presented them in could be clever scum.

 

JMM still rubs me the wrong way with his tone/lack thereof and chosen style of play. I had a look at the beginning of the ISO Sili linked and straight away I found his tone equally grating to my tonal sensabilities, with the slight (and potentially important) difference that he comes across less cavalier-bravado and more deliberately holding back this game. I also find the way he answered the question about his experience in mafia in this game has the potential to be scummish (specifying 'forum' mafia here, and starting his previous game with 'been out of mafia a while but here goes'). Until I get a satisfactory explanation of this and more interaction/cooperation in the thread, I'm moving him up to second place for scum.


In an ordered list my reads currently look like this:

Likely Scum

Sili

 

Null-Scum

jmm

Thane

 

Null

Yates

BFG

 

Null-Town

Clov

Tress

[Cass]

I have received the na´s but need to put my co-mod to bed. :D It might take a while since we have a habit of late evenings on weekends. I´ll probably be back in an hour with the scene and then D2 can begin.

 

 

Darnit. My ponylette will probably be up within the hour, I was hoping for a head-start!!

[Cass]

The specifics I worked on on Sili, also just in case.
 

 

NB I've tried to make this whole exchange as neat and as easy to follow as possible. Questions/Answers have been numbered and placed in sequential quotes, my old stuff is now all black, new stuff is up in blue, directly under the part it relates to. Nothing content-wise has been changed.

 

 

1 Why should we be reading you as Town?
2 What's the difference in your mind between a Town 'read' and a Town 'lean'?
3 What was your reason for suggesting Clov was a likely Wolf? Do you have a reason for not elaborating at the time?
4 You said chopping and changing is normal for you, and that you like to 'give your reads breathing room', but you 'pushed' Clov at least twice before suddenly dropping him and saying he actually seemed fine. Why?
5 Why is jmm's question about the number of wolves scummy?
6 How can you say you have Clov as Town because your interactions were 'likely v/v violence', but then claim you're 'spewed' clear if he is Scum? I can't follow that logic/don't see anything that points to either of these btw.

 

 

 

1 My engagement in the thread is good. I play this game to problem solve and my wolf game usually lags behind in this regard.

2 A read is a stated opinion while a lean is a stance. The former is less permanent, sometimes.

3 I was anxious to find scum so the first person to post something snarky caught my eye. I felt his soft nudge was unwarranted and premature given it was page 1. I didn't elaborate since sometimes wolves ask why a person is reading them this or that, but clov is experienced and knew I was in an awkward position and didn't have a strong case so it meant very little. I would approach it differently given another opportunity.

4 'at least twice'. How is it at least, and since when did I push him twice? I reminded him when it was apparent he wouldn't respond readily. To build a case twice on the same person I would have needed to adjust my reads three times. e.g. null -> scum -> town/null -> scum.

 

My process was null -> scum -> town. I changed my mind when his responses demonstrated a good level of engagement and insight; I read his nitpicking as genuine for clov (but I don't know him very well), and the conversation was remniscent of ones I've had with past villagers like csarmi or cory, and quite possibly clov in our one game together.

 

5The question was too detailed for me; for jmm it felt well thought out and premature. e.g. he says 'one or two scum probably'. He never responded to Clov's remark and he hasn't offered any useful input to gauge where he stands.

 

His latest post:

 

Truth.  I am very much taking that mindset, especially with Sili, since I tunneled him for a while last game  

like, he knows i'm town, otherwise the matter of tunneling me when I'm scum wouldn't be significant to him. Why not tunnel me again, right?

 

6 I rarely if ever engage/interact with my wolfpack. I don't have the knack for it. Clov also nudged me repeatadly and took me to task quite readily.

 

 

Quote 
(Originally Cass, - Pulled from top of Silli's next Quote - Time Stamp Lost)

1. Like I said in the generalised post, I'm glad you answered (and reading since that point, glad you have continued to interact) but I still feel like it took a lot to get you to 'explain' and that seems wilfy. I'll happily agree that you've been active in the thread since the beginning, but that alone doesn't automatically make you Town, and it's not quite the same as having a 'good' engagement - at least not to me...

 

2. Ok, cheers for explaining.

 

3. You felt his 'soft nudge was unwarranted given that it was page 1' and yet you voted BFG on Page 1 because of an emoticon. I mentioned before that I would have been ok to take that vote as a joke vote except you gave a 'proper' explanation when you unvoted and that seemed strange. The rest of your answer here feels like WIFOM. Except for the part where you say you'd approach it differently, what are you getting at there?

 

4. My explanation of 'twice' is that IMO you said you thought he was a wolf/pushed him for potentially being so here and here. I said you pushed him twice, not that you pushed him for two different things. The 'at least' is a disclaimer in case I missed something. WIFOM again for the 'I would have needed to adjust my reads three times... null-> scum -> town/null -> scum' thing. I never said anything like that and your null->scum->town thing could equally have been you backing off as a wolf because you didn't think your argument was going well/that you were going to get anywhere. 

 

5. I was wondering the same question (how many wolves), and asking whether it was one or two makes perfect sense to me, as it's highly unlikely to be anything else. I don't see this as wolfish, and I don't think that the 'probably' sounds overly out of place. I don't personally like jmm's tone or lack of as it makes him hard for me to read (and I find that suspicious in itself), but I don't think he's actually done anything suspicious yet. Because I don't see it as overly suspicious, I do find you jumping on this question somewhat opportunistic and therefore potentially wolfy. The point about the tunneling you when you're scum shouldn't be significant to him is a good one though - I'm waiting with interest to see his response.

 

6. I still don't understand your initial logic here (your interactions were 'likely v/v violence', but you're 'spewed' clear if he is Scum), and I can't confirm that you rarely engage/interact with your wolfpack / don't have a knack for it. I feel like you gave me fluff in answer for this question and then pointed your finger at Clov. The logic gap is/was a weak-to-null point for me, but not actually answering the question pings a little stronger.

 

 

 

1. It didn't take a lot ya know? I answered after you pointed them out to me, and all at once, not in bits and drabs. Yes, answering your questions was not my first priority, but I didn't dedicate space to not answering them either. There's nothing fishy here. 

 

I felt like it took a lot when I said that, probably because I felt like I had to highlight how scummy it seemed for you to avoid collaboration and plead for you to answer/explain in the post where I asked you not to give up if you were Town. You have to admit there was an attitude change between your 'I'm out' (etc) posts and the one where you actually started to answer the questions, and I felt like that wouldn't have occurred if I hadn't voiced concerns that your behaviour was likely to be scum. Reading on mobiles sucks, yes, but I can't tell for sure that you actually missed those questions at the bottom of the WoT the first time round. You did answer them, and now you're answering the questions that your original 'answers' raised, so that actually does look good. I find it a little fishy that you left out the original questions in the block of quotes you included in this answer, but for I'm trying to clear my head instead of tinfoil here so... Light help me if I'm wrong. 

 

2. Yep.

 

3. Bfg wasn't on my mind when I unvoted. Just clov. I never offered an explanation for my first vote.  

I think this one is definitely my bad. I interpreted the 'I may have been too abrupt' thing as relating to the vote on BFG, not Clov. On the re-read, you're right and you don't even mention BFG. 

FWIW in case you think it's suss, I think the tinfoil here occurred because I thought your vote on BFG for the emoticon was 'too abrupt', and so the words of this post associated with that event in my mind...   I obviously feel a lot better about this whole 'why wasn't it a joke-vote?' thing now.  

 

wifom? you think there needs to be a good reason page 1 for any sort of read?

No, my reference to 'WIFOM' was in relation to the answer you gave me when I asked why you didn't elaborate. I highlighted in red the part I found confusing/sketchy.  "I didn't elaborate since sometimes wolves ask why a person is reading them this or that, but clov is experienced and knew I was in an awkward position and didn't have a strong case so it meant very little." The first part makes sense enough by itself, but not in the context of the second part, which seems contradictory. It's like the first part you're saying 'I didn't elaborate because it's a strategy I use to catch wilves' and the second part you're saying 'but I didn't elaborate because Clov is experienced and would have caught me in an awkward position if I'd tried to make stuff up'. I'm  still don't entirely understand. Why would it be an 'awkward' position? Why would you want a 'strong case' if you were deliberately 'not elaborating'?

 

i would add a pound of logic since it was kind of flaccid in retrospect. reaction tests require traction.

Where would this 'pound of logic' come from if you 'didn't have a strong case' (your own words)? Why 'add' it instead of 'finding' it, if it was something you didn't already have?

 

4. =/ when you say i pushed him twice it implies a certain amount of sustained conviction or paranoia on my part.
The 'sustained' I agree with and was what I was implying was strange at that point of the game. 

'Conviction' and 'paranoia' would only be appropriate in the context that I thought what you were 'sustaining' was Townish. I didn't/don't, and I thought I'd made that pretty clear...

 

your null->scum->town thing could equally have been you backing off as a wolf because you didn't think your argument was going well/that you were going to get anywhere.

No it isn't. I don't build a case on clov to persuade anyone, and I don't wait on anyone to refute nonexistent arguments before i change my mind either. 

On re-read this is essentially true. 

Let's call it tone and gut and agree to disagree on this. (The red is in relation to Question/Answer 5).

 

(turns out i was too lazy to doublecheck this factoid but it's probably true considering my alignment). 

What? 

 

5. i almost always catch a wolf through their opening content: fnord, killer, cormag, heathcliff, lycan. i think there's a method to my madness, and i don't think it's wolfy for me to find the scummiest op and build a case for it.

I tend to try and gut-read like this too, but (the red) didn't you just say "I don't build a case on clov..." ? (see above)   

 

6. you have a strange opinion on what constitutes a fos. acknowledging a possibility isn't the same as voicing an opinion, right? you could be scum, but it doesn't mean you're likely to have randed it.

all you need to do to confirm is look at my history.

Ok. i) you still didn't explain what you meant by the 'logic' I originally questioned/didn't understand - the part where you said your interactions were 'likely v/v violence', but that you'd be 'spewed' clear if he is Scum. 

And ii) I thought the part  "Clov also nudged me repeatadly[sic] and took me to task quite readily. "  was you voicing your opinion/potentially suggesting Clov could be to blame for the off vibe I was getting from the interaction. Tbh the rest of it makes no sense to me.

 

[Sili Quirrels]

haha ~ 'i'm scum again' ~ if only that were true.

 

there's an old pog guideline which says when a person frequently regresses to complacency when otherwise they are skeptical and wary they are a wolf.  it's hard to pretend to be someone you aren't all the time, so where it concerns high content or a broad focus, most players tend to be intermittent about pretending to scum hunt.

[Sili Quirrels]

and the second part you're saying 'but I didn't elaborate because Clov is experienced and would have caught me in an awkward position if I'd tried to make stuff up'.

 

i'm saying the strategy lacked the requisite oomph to get the response i wanted.

[Sili Quirrels]

Where would this 'pound of logic' come from if you 'didn't have a strong case' (your own words)? Why 'add' it instead of 'finding' it, if it was something you didn't already have?

 

uh, an ounce of flesh to a bone-thin argument doesn't make it strong. A case needs something more than one post to build from.

[Sili Quirrels]

Let's call it tone and gut and agree to disagree on this.

 

I get no villa points for knowing my content better than a third-party despite the hilarious volume of it?

 

So much tunnel.